What do I need to fly a plane?

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What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by . ._ »

Funny question coming from a pilot, eh?

I was dreaming at work the other day: wouldn't it be nice if there was some rich dude with way more money than time that needed his plane exercised? It's not good to let them sit too long. I know that much, but it seems at every airport, there's a guy like this. Maybe he'd let me exercise it.

So let's say some 250 hour wonder like myself gets this opportunity. I know I'm licenced and my medical is good, but what else would someone need to know/have to jump in a plane and go. I'm sure there would be some kind of insurance minimum, I guess. And I'm sure legally flying it is one thing, but maintenance issues are another. I wouldn't mind hearing about both.

Let's assume the rich guy's plane has been sitting in a hangar for 2 years and hasn't been flown. Where do you go from there? And let's assume the plane is some piston single with a variable pitch prop.

Any ideas?

-istp :)
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by LegoMan »

Doubt it, the guy is probably not interested in the risk of having his plane do a swan-dive into the ground. Not to mention, just like a car, the more time you put on it, the more it depreciates. You are using the cycles, engine life and bringing him closer to an inspection. If a company that employs pilots and has insurance wont trust you, why should the rich guy?
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Hedley »

plane has been sitting in a hangar for 2 years and hasn't been flown
Gotta get an annual done, for the C of A to be valid. All AD's must be complied with before flight, too, including and repetitive ones, and any new ones that have been issued against that airframe/engine/prop/etc in the last 2 years.

Normal out-of-phase items will include compass swing, ELT, tachometer, etc.

The annual will likely require that a jug be pulled to inspect for internal corrosion because it hasn't flown for one year.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by xsbank »

Pulling a jug? Can that be done with a boroscope instead? Interesting.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Hedley »

CAR 625, App B, Part I, (4)(m) says:
(m) Internal corrosion - inspect engines which have not been inhibited and have been out of service in excess of 12 months
It doesn't say how to inspect the engine. Most AME's I know want to pull a jug and look at the camshaft, but as always YMMV.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by iflyforpie »

This isn't as far fetched as it might seem. Most aircraft I take care of are flown less than 50 hours a year and the owners are money-rich, time-poor professionals that can't fly that often.

I used to just fly for fuel costs since it was quite cheaper than renting. Here, I get paid quite well to fly a private aircraft by a fairly well-off gentleman.

LegoMan wrote:Doubt it, the guy is probably not interested in the risk of having his plane do a swan-dive into the ground. Not to mention, just like a car, the more time you put on it, the more it depreciates. You are using the cycles, engine life and bringing him closer to an inspection. If a company that employs pilots and has insurance wont trust you, why should the rich guy?

Legoman's arguments are terribly uninformed. Planes do not depreciate like cars (probably the worst 'investment' ever) and for the most part, private aircraft are not held to the same inspection cycles as commercial aircraft. You need to do an annual every year regardless of how many hours you fly and TBO take a long time to run off and isn't binding for private aircraft.

The fact that the aircraft is being used and the engine and wheel bearings are not sitting and rusting adds value to the aircraft. Control cables, pulleys, tires, and brakes degrade just as fast on the ground as in the air. I just brought a 172 that didn't fly for three years back to life and it had a stuck valve (jug wound up being completely screwed) and five other jugs that functioned all right but looked like the first one. Just the parts were 8 or 9000$, never mind the time spend to tear it apart and put it back together again, plus all the other things that were wrong with the plane.



So what do you need to do? First, the aircraft needs a current annual inspection, as per CAR 625 Appendix B and C. Of course it also needs a current AAIR if the owner has not done one or has declared the aircraft out of service. If the plane has been sitting for a while, an annual might be very expensive, especially if there is outstanding defects or a prop has come due for overhaul. An owner might not be so happy about spending all this money for somebody else to fly their plane, and this is the reason why so many sit and rot.


Second, you need insurance. You can get personal insurance from COPA that lets you be insured for any aircraft you fly, but the aircraft needs liability insurance as well. It's a good idea to have hull coverage too just in case you damage the aircraft (anything can happen). Generally what I do is get put on the owner's insurance. The amount of hours you have combined with the type of aircraft might require you to get training or a checkout, and this can get complicated. But I have had no problems being a current CPL with lots of high performance hours and I am also under our company's shopkeeper insurance.

Then, of course, you need to make an arrangement. Some owners think they are doing you a big favor and charge almost what a rental is worth. This makes things complicated and unnecessarily expensive. An easy agreement is for you to cover the fuel and oil while they provide the rest, as it is a sort of self-governing 'pay-as-you-go' arrangement. Another one might be for you to cover fuel and an overhaul reserve or maintenance reserve (25-50$/hr for a light aircraft is typical). A general agreement on how many hours you fly should be in place.

It's not the easiest thing to do. I have a rapport with owners since I am the mechanic who takes care of their aircraft. You also have to consider that you are leaving the safe confines of oversight under a school or company to widely different aircraft, standards of maintenance, and required training.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Hedley »

ok, but would you pull a jug or borescope it for the one year no-pickle internal corrosion?
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by iflyforpie »

Hedley wrote:ok, but would you pull a jug or borescope it for the one year no-pickle internal corrosion?
You can't really see the condition of the cam lobes with a borescope unless you are very creative. That pretty much means pulling a jug. I get paid by the hour... 8)

Actually, that engine you hate so much, the O-320-H2AD... it was designed so you didn't need to tear it apart to see the cam lobes and lifter bodies. They just pop out after you remove the pushrods. So maybe in that case you could get away with a borescope, because the cam should tell the saddest story, no?
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Beefitarian »

Both, pull one and boroscope the others just to be sure.

Looks like I need to go hang out with iflyforpie for a bit then set up my "private plane exercise service" here.

Here's a question can a guy run this sort of service on a PPL?

I fly the plane monthly for free so I'm not flying for reward. I then charge a yearly fee for the service of making sure that the plane is ready to fly at all times including my staff AME doing the yearly inspection and signing off on your C of A. You never even have to go see the thing but if you're going to take it for a "currency" ride every third year you jump in and turn the key, then roar off into the wild blue yonder. If at some point you decide to sell it's a fully functional aircraft instead of a project you'll have to let go for much less.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by JL »

Not all things are rosie in the world of resale iflyforpie. Check the Cirrus decline according to Aviation Consumer. Granted, it is not the classical instant decline as you drive it off the lot, but it is still a significant depreciation over a relatively short period of time.

Image
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Post by Beefitarian »

That's partially because the cirrus is so over priced new. It was legoman that figured his plane would depreciate less as it seized up instead of being kept in ready to fly or sell shape by istp/Beefitarian inc.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by iflyforpie »

Yeah, most newer aircraft do depreciate a bit more than the aircraft I was thinking of. But they will not depreciate to nothing like a car will if they are maintained.

The Cirrus is a special example because it has a airworthiness limitation of like 4000 hours at which point it becomes a high tech paper weight.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by JL »

It probably doesn't help the value either when the manufacturer is continually updating/improving/changing avionics packages. Who wants Cirrus version 1.0 when I can get version 2.0 for a few bucks more?
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Pirate Pilot »

The real short answer is: you must have insurance and you must be current on type. If you have these, you can negotiate a pay me\pay you situation. :D
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Beefitarian »

Can I buy insurance for me or does the owner have to add me to his policy? People are terrified of their insurance company for some reason and probably won't want to add their best friend, never mind me.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Hedley »

CAR 606.02(8) applies. Read it carefully.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Beefitarian »

Actually you should have reprimanded me for not reading the thread "carefully".
Second, you need insurance. You can get personal insurance from COPA that lets you be insured for any aircraft you fly, but the aircraft needs liability insurance as well. It's a good idea to have hull coverage too just in case you damage the aircraft (anything can happen).
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by . ._ »

Great replies, guys. Thanks! :)
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by bkn4thr »

first you need to find a retarded rich guy! :D
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Hedley »

find a retarded rich guy
Not sure I understand that. If you wander around virtually any airport in Canada, you can find plenty of neglected aircraft - tires going flat, grass growing up around them, birds nesting in them, tails covered with snow in the winter with their noses in the air.

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to spot the aircraft that don't fly much. As has been pointed out above, not flying an airplane is very, very bad for it. As a very rough rule of thumb, an aircraft needs to be flown every 2 weeks to avoid disastrous internal corrosion, which is certain to result in an incredibly expensive - and totally avoidable - premature engine overhaul.

I refuse to believe that every neglectful aircraft owner in Canada is a retarded rich guy. He might be sick with cancer, lost his medical due to heart problems or diabetes, travelling a lot of the time on business, busy with his family or even deceased. He doesn't intend to hurt the aircraft that he paid so much money for - that's just how it's working out for him.
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Re: What do I need to fly a plane?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

We need an SPCA (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Airplanes). It would have the power to require owners that are neglecting their airplanes to let them be flown, at the owners expense, by deserving young pilots :wink:
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