What have you done to improve flight training?

[MichaelP]

You're a CFI right? You have some power to enact change.

I do, and my little part of the Canadian training wilderness is a little happier than most.
But regardless of what I do here the bigger picture is what we compete against.
A principal in ATAC runs another school and was of the opinion that flight instructors are a special case outside the employment laws of Canada. I fell foul of ATAC once when I complained to COPA. COPA passed my complaint on to ATAC!
We have to compete with schools offering lower than reasonable rates because we have to compete with the cheaper Union of Soviet Americas, and our only plus is the fact that we don't have a TSA problem.

I do my bit for my fellow instructors, but there's only so much I can.

In my opinion TC's standard of flight training is brutally low.

On this I do not agree, specifically with respect to Pacific Region.
Here at CZBB TC visits are common and I think all the schools here are doing their best.

[Shiny Side Up]

In my opinion TC's standard of flight training is brutally low.

On this I do not agree, specifically with respect to Pacific Region.
Here at CZBB TC visits are common and I think all the schools here are doing their best.

I think you're still missing my point on which standard is low. It has nothing to do with what happens in each specific region, but what by the letter of the law is required. Part of the issue that comes from this is schools that do the bare minimum can obviously cut costs over those that go above and beyond. TC will only get you if you drop below that low standard, how much above it you are they don't care.

[Hedley]

standard of flight training is brutally low

Ummm ... the national average to PPL is what, 80 hrs? Should it be raised to 150 hrs with additional requirements?

[MichaelP]

the letter of the law

The letter of the law is the Flight Test Standards and I think these are high enough.

Yes the higher the standard the higher the number of training hours required, and that is why there is a PPL, then a CPL, and then an ATPL!
I think the Canadian average is higher due to lower standard instructors who were at one time lower standard students.
There's a problem with the fact that too many people are on to the flying hours part of flight training and too few hours are spent ground training and in self study.
Perhaps some of this is the instructors desire to get flight hours and some of this is the students ignorance of what has to be learned.

Maylan did over seventy five hours with their Chinese students who could not go solo because nobody thought to get them their medicals!
The Class IV instructors were largely unsupervised and they seem to have been in it for their own flying hours with the students coming second!

As instructors we must do our job, put the student first and ourselves second, and that is being professional and ethical.
If we do not do our jobs properly then we create PPLs, CPLs, and future instructors who reflect this.

I appreciate how hard it is to be motivated to do a good job under the conditions within which we live. I've been in it longer than most!
As instructors we must somehow overcome the shortfalls of our own original training and try to do a better job than perhaps our own instructors did with us.

[Old Dog Flying]

the letter of the law

I think the Canadian average is higher due to lower standard instructors who were at one time lower standard students.
.

Hell Mike, I've been saying this for years..a true case of the blind leading the blind!. As a CFI there should be a requirement to do periodic checks on the students being trained by the new Class 4s and the instructor debriefed as required. I've seen many situations at CZBB where there were NO supervising instructors on duty; in one case the highest time instructor at a particular FTU was a 300 hour wonder. My concerns were ignored by the CFI and TC did nothing.

[MichaelP]

We do supervisory flights with all students regardless of who's training them, even if the student's one of mine.
A different set of eyes is important.

[Shiny Side Up]

Again, some swings and misses, so I'll try again. Michael gives me some good opportunity to explain.

the letter of the law

The letter of the law is the Flight Test Standards and I think these are high enough.

Here I disagree, but that's not the only standard that's at stake here.

I think the Canadian average is higher due to lower standard instructors who were at one time lower standard students.
There's a problem with the fact that too many people are on to the flying hours part of flight training and too few hours are spent ground training and in self study.

This training which you disagree with is acceptable according to the letter of the law in Canada. Maybe not the spirit of the law - but the letter of the law certainly encourages it by placing a premium on hours of time doing an activity, in particular flying acitvity. Is there any standard for how much a student needs to be briefed during a PPL, RPP or CPL training? This is besides groundschool which also has the duty of passing a written test - a test that I'll reiterate only has a 60% pass mark. Theoretically a super learner should then be able to sleep through 40% of groundschool and still meet the standard required by the test. Acceptable standard?

Maylan did over seventy five hours with their Chinese students who could not go solo because nobody thought to get them their medicals!

But technically once again not against any CARs. Ethically terribly wrong, but perfectly within what is set out by the letter of the law flight training wise. There is after all a minimum time required, but no maximums.

The Class IV instructors were largely unsupervised and they seem to have been in it for their own flying hours with the students coming second!

So did TC shut down Maylan when it was discovered that their class 4s weren't very well supervised? Who was the CFI who was hung? Links to the findings anywhere, anyone? Probably not since technically on the flight training side of things, they were within the standard required of them. IF they weren't, one must ask why TC didn't shut them down sooner. Bad can of worms to open up - either they were operating according to the CARs, or they weren't and no one did anything. Is this an acceptable standard?

I appreciate how hard it is to be motivated to do a good job under the conditions within which we live. I've been in it longer than most!

Then why not improve those conditions? Why do you accept that they can't be changed? I can tell you from experience its possible.

As instructors we must somehow overcome the shortfalls of our own original training and try to do a better job than perhaps our own instructors did with us.

I think it would be wrong to assume that people in yours and my position in flight training had shortfalls in our instruction - we were significantly more fortunate to have had access to people from Cat Driver's generation still actively teaching. That aside, I don't always think its the quality of the instructors that's the problem, its the atmosphere they work under, the system they work within that stunts their ability. The system still does produce good pilots, but more in spite of it than because of it - which says a lot for those laboring in it.

Ummm ... the national average to PPL is what, 80 hrs? Should it be raised to 150 hrs with additional requirements?

Quit thinking of the hours to finish. Why can't we just shoot for a better end product, regardless of the hours. After all, why isn't there more incentive to perform? Personally I'd like to see revisions on how the flight test and re-testing should be performed. Why doesn't TC require more supervision of a student during training so that they meet standards along the way? Right now TC is considerably more interested in the paperwork a student generates than the student's actual performance. Personally I'd welcome them to come out and actually maybe teach the students a lesson once in a while to make their own evaluations on what I do rather than just come and check my handwriting.

[Cat Driver]

I think it would be wrong to assume that people in yours and my position in flight training had shortfalls in our instruction - we were significantly more fortunate to have had access to people from Cat Driver's generation still actively teaching.

If I were to choose one exercise that is far to often poorly taught, it would be attitudes and movements.

[Shiny Side Up]

I think it would be wrong to assume that people in yours and my position in flight training had shortfalls in our instruction - we were significantly more fortunate to have had access to people from Cat Driver's generation still actively teaching.

If I were to choose one exercise that is far to often poorly taught, it would be attitudes and movements.

Very true, or at least not enough time is spent on it. Students often want to race towards the circuit and unfortunately instructors are often too happy to oblige.

[Cat Driver]

Very true, or at least not enough time is spent on it. Students often want to race towards the circuit and unfortunately instructors are often too happy to oblige.

And without a clear understanding of and the ability to produce and control a given movement and attitude you have the equivalent of someone who is given a document that claims they are mathematicians, when in reality they don't know the answer too two plus two equals four.

Great system.

[shitdisturber]

the letter of the law

I think the Canadian average is higher due to lower standard instructors who were at one time lower standard students.
.

Hell Mike, I've been saying this for years..a true case of the blind leading the blind!. As a CFI there should be a requirement to do periodic checks on the students being trained by the new Class 4s and the instructor debriefed as required. I've seen many situations at CZBB where there were NO supervising instructors on duty; in one case the highest time instructor at a particular FTU was a 300 hour wonder. My concerns were ignored by the CFI and TC did nothing.

There is a requirement for periodic checks of a Class IV's students; at a minimum there is a check required pre-solo, and pre-flight test. I always did the diversions trip with my Class IV's students as well to ensure I always got an airplane and student back at the end of the first solo cross country. Along with filling in the blanks when their instructors weren't available, it's probably a pretty rare student that I didn't fly with at least four or five times. As for the no supervising instructors thing; I don't know what to say about that. It's pretty clear that no Class IV is allowed to instruct unsupervised and the CFI and TC would know that as well as you and I. Why TC would choose to ignore that is a mystery to me.

[Cat Driver]

Why TC would choose to ignore that is a mystery to me.

Maybe it is because of the top management of TCCA in the Pacific Region?.......remember Sonic Blue?

[shitdisturber]

Why TC would choose to ignore that is a mystery to me.

Maybe it is because of the top management of TCCA in the Pacific Region?.......remember Sonic Blue?

Theoretically Sonic Blue and FTU's are apples and oranges since they come under different departments, but your point is well taken.

[MichaelP]

Maybe it is because of the top management of TCCA in the Pacific Region?

Maylan did not come under Pacific Region's responsibility, they were based in London Ontario.
Their troubles were told by the news media in 2009 when Chinese students were apparently living on $10 a day and not getting any training... Shame on Maylan, shame on Canada!

Pacific Region did close whatever Centennial flying school became here, when they closed down Regency airlines.

Who was the CFI who was hung?

How rude of you!
Of course you could mean 'hanged'!

I understand Maylan closed down with a dispute between its owners and owing all sorts of people money, documentation, and personal property.

Then why not improve those conditions? Why do you accept that they can't be changed? I can tell you from experience its possible.

Then please enlighten us all by telling us how you did it.

[Cat Driver]

O.K..........I will restate my comment and point out that TCCA has serious systemic problems at the top, not only in the Pacific Region.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The bottom line IMO is you are as good an instructor as you choose to be. Just because you are a low time Class 4 using the instructor gig as the first step in your aviation career does not mean you shouldn't work everyday to be the best instructor you can be. A class 4 properly supervised can do perfectly competent training up to the PPL level and there should be no excuses if his/her student has any significant skill/knowledge deficits.

TC is not responsible for your level of "Give a Shit" only you are.

[shitdisturber]

O.K..........I will restate my comment and point out that TCCA has serious systemic problems at the top, not only in the Pacific Region.

Not necessary ., I understood your point and can't really argue with you on it.

[GoinNowhereFast]

Now we have determined that the problem with flight training is instructors that "don't give a shit". Back to the thread topic, what have you done personally to improve flight training?

Here's what I have done to improve flight training:
As a low time pilot and having no desire to teach, I have stayed away from the flight training world. I hope to, one day, be as old and wise as Cat, and maybe then I'll want to contribute to flight training.
Also, as just recently gone through the flight training world, I know what it's like to be the student first hand. I've seen the good instructors and the bad. I don't expect to be buddy-buddy with all of them, but I do expect them to care about their job and put 110% into teaching.

[Cat Driver]

Now we have determined that the problem with flight training is instructors that "don't give a shit".

Which begs the question.....if this is the case why are they not weeded out of the training industry?

[shitdisturber]

Now we have determined that the problem with flight training is instructors that "don't give a shit".

Which begs the question.....if this is the case why are they not weeded out of the training industry?

Sadly, in our touchy feely society you can't really do that. In order to fire somebody nowadays, once they're passed a suitable probationary period you have to jump through a whole bunch of hoops in order to cover your own ass. They have to be counselled etc etc, written warnings, the whole nine yards. If you don't have a huge file on them when you go to get rid of them it's more than likely going to bite you in the ass. Reminds me of an employee I inherited from the previous CFI way back when. Said individual was about as honest as a used carpet salesman and as friendly to the customers they didn't like as someone in the middle of a roid rage. I had one customer come to me and tell me, "if so and so stays, I'm gone." I told the customer, "put it in writing, give me something to work with." He did, but fortunately I found a way to encourage the undesirable employee to quit which made it unnecessary.

[Aviatard]

Maylan did over seventy five hours with their Chinese students who could not go solo because nobody thought to get them their medicals!
The Class IV instructors were largely unsupervised

Both of these statements are factually incorrect. TC took a very large interest in Maylan; there were 3 assistant CFI's and every student received QA flights before solo. The long times to solo were related to language difficulties, and not to lack of medicals.

[MichaelP]

The long times to solo were related to language difficulties, and not to lack of medicals.

That I am afraid is BS.
I have looked at the PTRs of the students we have here.
Their training included cross country flights and instrument flying, items that are not normally done prior to solo.
I had to certify their flying times as part of the application for a PPL, are you telling me I'm a liar when the evidence is right in front of me?

If a student was having language difficulties then that student required ESL classes before he began flying.
There was no proper supervision otherwise these students would never have done 75 hours training!

A Chief Flying Instructor is responsible for the quality of instruction given, and the appropriateness of the lessons.

If language was the issue then why was so much training given when the language ability was insufficient for those lessons to be effective?

You cannot know how difficult it is for us, and I suspect the school in Manitoba, to pick up the pieces from Maylan, and convince these students that we, unlike the unethical people at Maylan, will not rip them off.

The Maylan situation makes me angry, I do not believe TC did a good job of policing what was going on, I do believe that many of the instructors there were unethical.

It is a fact that the student medicals were not done prior to them commencing training... Maylan took their money, the Class IVs got their hours, and there was no surity that the students would pass their medicals to Class 1 standard.

Maylan shamed Canada, and shames all Canadian instructors who are trying to do their jobs properly.

For me, I who went to China, who worked for Beijing Pan Am for a while, I who told the students there that we would do a better more ethical job in Canada, Maylan made me into a liar.

[Shiny Side Up]

Then why not improve those conditions? Why do you accept that they can't be changed? I can tell you from experience its possible.

Then please enlighten us all by telling us how you did it.

Wait, don't tell me you're going to read what I have to say now are you? I thought you didn't like me repeating myself.

All seriousness aside, if you want my opinion on how specifically you can improve your lot I can give it to you, but that belongs more in the PM area than it does here.

Now we have determined that the problem with flight training is instructors that "don't give a shit".

Which begs the question.....if this is the case why are they not weeded out of the training industry?

Instructors of this sort continue to make a go of it because customers keep coming to them. Often its not someone's job to "fire" them, often not giving a shit is endemic to a school rather than a particular individual, though it does occasionally manifest itself there too. Not caring though is a pretty rare case in my experience. You'd be hard pressed to find an instructor who genuinely doesn't care (though they are out there) but many more who feel they don't have any avenue for changing their predicament. They continue to keep passing on the same stuff - often that they might not agree with - and most look to leave the situation rather than change it. Could you imagine what could be accomplished is we could convince every instructor they need to push for a change in the system? Hell, we've seen many post here in this thread that they don't believe it can be changed, and as long as people believe it, it won't.

Shitdisturber is right in that often though, the customer often just continues to put up with bad instructors. Part of the issue is the student/instructor relationship which no matter how bad a student feels their instructor might be, they are loathe to do something about it. A "bad" instructor doesn't always mean that a student is high in hours, or unproficient in some way either, so records wise it can be tough to see if the student doesn't make clear that they're unhappy with the arrangement.

[MichaelP]

Wait, don't tell me you're going to read what I have to say now are you?

Why not?
Do you feel I ignore you?
Sorry.

By all means PM me with the panacea to our problems.

[Shiny Side Up]

Wait, don't tell me you're going to read what I have to say now are you?

Why not?
Do you feel I ignore you?
Sorry.

Not hurtin' my feelings, it just suprises me when someone does seem to actually have read what I've posted. The advice is free if you want it. Unless I miss my mark, you're extremely unhappy with your lot in flight training chiefly because you feel there's not a living to be made in it. Do you feel the situation would improve if you could make a decent living at it? Remember, I didn't say get rich. Do you feel that flight training at your school would improve if the personell made a good living at it? What about flight training in your area? Nationally?