After PPL, what's next? Commercial or IFR?

[PPL Student]

Hi Folks,

Just want to get a gauge on people's opinion. I am doing my ppl as a recreation and do not have plans to fly as a career (who knows, that may change!!!!!). Just love to fly!

Given that I am flying as a recreation, but do want to continue my training, these are my thoughts. After passing PPL, I will then to Night rating. After that, I will do IFR. So, does that make sense? Should I do IFR rating, or commercial first.

Your thoughts?

[Hedley]

After you get your PPL/night, what you need to do is fly.

PPL & night rating are but licences to learn, and that's what you need to do now.

Yes, there is no piece of paper for it, but you need to learn to use an airplane to go places, and learn to fly it when the weather is less than perfect. I'm not talking 200 OVC, I'm talking winds gusting 15 knots. Maybe 25. You know, the winds that your FTU wouldn't let you fly in.

Learn to be a competent VFR pilot, even if there is no piece of paper that certifies you as such. Perhaps there should be.

Only after you are a competent VFR pilot should you consider IFR.

Commercial, well, pick that up along the way as you get the hours. 200 total, 100 PIC and 20 hood after your PPL. Since you're not going to fly for a living, it's probably not as high a priority as developing your pilot skills.

Free advice: fly as many different types of aircraft as you can. Step away from the nosewheel trainer. Learn about constant speed props, cowl flaps, fuel injection and retractable gear. Get some tailwheel time if you can. Get some float time. Hang out with the glider guys for a weekend. Try flying a helicopter, if the opportunity presents.

Learn to fly in different places. If you're in the flatlands, learn about the mountains. If you're landlocked, learn about the coast. If you're up north, try flying in Florida or California, if the opportunity presents itself. If you've only flown at quiet airport, mix it up at a busy airport.

Free advice that I give to everyone with less than 1,000 hours: fly twice, today, weather permitting. You need the stick time, and you need the experience dealing with the wx.

[PPL Student]

Hedley, thanks so much for your detailed response. Yes I agree with you 100%. I just need to fly now. In as many different locations / planes as possible. And, have fun while doing so!!!!!

I didn't mean to come across as being impatient with my questions about IFR before Commercial. I am thinking of doing this down the road, say a year after I get ppl. Many friends in aviation have said the same as you, just do some flying first. My question was more of a technical one in the sense of "when I am ready to further my training to become a more advanced pilot, would one recommend doing IFR rating, or commercial first"?

Thanks again for all your feedback.

Have a great night.

[Big Pistons Forever]

PPLstudent.

The one thing that the PPL training generally doesn't give you is the requirement to make your own inflight decisions. I heartily second Hedleys post, the experience you need won't come from more training it will come from going places VFR. Be conservative , seek out advice from experienced pilots, but go places !
The best PPL I ever met finished his license, then took a month off work and circumnavigated North America (ie Vancouver Island to Newfoundland to Florida to California to Vancouver island). After a month of solid flying he had more real world piloting shmucks then virtually all of the instructors at his school

[Grantmac]

I learned more about going places on a 15 hour cross country, Phoenix AZ to Everett WA, then I did in the previous 50 hours of renting.
It was 75% mountain flying in the middle of the summer just under gross weight in an aircraft type I'd never flown before. I wasn't solo, but it gave me the confidence to be able to just pick an airport on the map and take myself there. I wasn't really comfortable doing that before.

-Grant

[Hedley]

The best PPL I ever met finished his license, then took a month off work and circumnavigated North America (ie Vancouver Island to Newfoundland to Florida to California to Vancouver island). After a month of solid flying he had more real world piloting than virtually all of the instructors at his school

Exactly! Don't get me wrong, going around the circuit hones your crosswind skills, but sooner or later it's time to leave the nest and fly somewhere.

You're going to learn an awful lot about the weather in the process, or you're going to get all your experience in one day (not recommended).

When the weather is good, and you have lots of gas, and the airplane is running great, flying someplace is easy. However, when the weather is bad, or you're on fumes, or stuff on airplane isn't working as advertised, flying can get challenging.

Develop the judgement so you can see these pitfalls coming, and avoid them if you can.

Here's a tip: Don't gamble at the casino. Just kidding. If at all possible, try to fly from bad weather into good weather. As you learn to fly longer distances, you're going to mess with at least one, sometimes two weather systems (lows) in one day. The weather is never the same - it's always changing, and flying from good weather into bad makes me nervous, as you watch the cloud ceiling and visibility decrease steadily as you approach your destination. Don't let the tractor beam pull you into your VFR-into-IMC death. Have wx minimums (eg 1500/5 VFR) and if the wx is below that, divert and land.

[Daviator]

Hi PPL,

I would agree with the other posts, there's nothing that can replace real world experience, and you can get that by progressively pushing your comfort zone little by little, whether it's another 100nm further, or another 5 knots stronger...little by little you will get more confidence and gain more skill, especially in PDM.

Regarding your future in flying, if you have no aspirations of working as a pilot, i'm not so sure the CPL is necessary, but if you find that you have been steadily flying off the criteria (x/c time etc...) than maybe in the future you could explore the CPL option as the time arises.

Regarding the IFR, a lot of people have aspirations of doing their IFR because they want to be able to fly in crappy weather or be prepared for worst case scenerios, but realisitcally, it's highly unlikely you would actually use it as much as you may think. It is a whole new ball game with planning, and alternates, and weather, and rules and regs that will get overwhelming if you are not fully commited to it. My suggesstion would be to do some more instrument training instead of working towards your IFR, work on VOR and NDB tracking, partial panel climbing, descending and turning... and if down the road you decide you are enjoying the instrument training, than buckle down and start studying for the Exam.

One thing I would strongly suggest, after you finish your PPL...every so often, go do a Dual flight with an Instructor. You will be surprised at how lax your flying has become and it will challenge you to be more precise in your solo flying. After 15 hours of solo flying, go do some Dual Airwork, brush up on your stall recovery procedure and engine failure procedure. Practice some short and soft field take off and landins with 40 deg flap, on grass if you can find it. Get a day where the winds are gusting 25 accross and grab an instructor and get your sidesslip perfected! And if you are looking for amazing experiences, go do your float rating and/or multi rating. You will learn new aspects of flying that will shape you as a pilot.

Daviator
CPL Floats Multi IFR
Class 2 Flight Instructor
Operations Manager & Chief Pilot

[Cat Driver]

When are they going to get rid of the ADF?

[Big Pistons Forever]

When are they going to get rid of the ADF?

They allready have, you just need a Garmin 430/530 or equivalent. NDB approaches are sure easy when all you have to do is keep the HSI track bar centered
Here is to better flying courtesy of high technology

[Daviator]

We still have tons of NDB approaches in Canada, but yes, the GPS surely is revolutionizing the industry and it's only a matter of time before VOR is gone...and maybe in the not so distant future, ILS may be obsolete too!

Three cheers for moving map display

Don't want to promote things on here, but if you have an Iphone or new BB - Download the free ap, Air Navigation Free... NDB, VOR and HSI plus DME! I've tested it in the aircraft and it works pretty good... and when you upgrade to Pro, you have moving map display among other things!!!

So say hello and goodbye to garmin, and welcome in a yoke mounted cell phone holder for your future vfr and ifr navigation!!!

...Daviator

[Posthumane]

PPL, I was in the same spot as you just over a year ago. I finished my PPL and bought an airplane (172) at about the same time. My rationale was that once i have a plane, i have to spend a certain amount paying for the annual, insurance, parking, etc. so I will be more compelled to fly more often. It's a lot easier to justify a $30-$50/hour marginal cost for a flight when you're paying several thousand a year to keep the plane than it is to justify the $150/hour rental cost. After a little bit of local flying I started on my night rating, although it took me a long time to complete due to a variety of issues. In the last year and a half of airplane ownership I've learned probably as much as I did during my entire PPL training - dealing with snags on the airplane (especially when away from home base), going to different airports of various sizes, making weather decisions when I've told friends or family that I would be there at a certain time or that I'd fly them somewhere, and so on. My next step is to start venturing into the mountains and over the border to the US, and more distant destinations. Also, gliders.

I'm at about the 150hr mark and am also considering whether I should do a CPL. It's not an urgent thing as I don't plan to go work for an airline or anything like that, but I might do it anyway at some point just to have more options. Although most commercial operations require an OC, there are certain things you can do without one. The other thing about getting a CPL is it forces you to hone your flying skills with an instructor looking over your shoulder. If you have an aircraft you have the option of taking a long time to do the CPL by flying with an instructor once every few weeks and doing lots of flying on your own in between.

However, unless you have access to an aircraft that is IFR capable that you can fly all the time and have the time to do so, the IFR rating is probably not the best way to go. Others on this forum have said that it is something you have to use regularly in order to stay proficient, and if you're only flying on weekends for fun then you will probably lose the skills pretty quickly.

[iflyforpie]

I'll chime in with what I did for my CPL.


I have always been a cheap bastard, so I did my IFR as my CPL and saved a ton of money. Slightly more expensive CPL, (I got a deal on the twin, only $115/hr more than dual in a single), but with a Group 1 IFR. The dual hours I spent under the hood were counted as CPL Dual. I finished with 200 hours even.

Hedley says that you need to have some real-world VFR experience before you go IFR, and he is absolutely right. But part of the requirement for IFR is to have 40 PIC cross country hours.

So pretty much all of my solo CPL time was cross country. I did most of my solo night stuff cross country (very valuable hours for the ATPL I will probably never get). To keep up with landings, I would do a touch and go at every enroute airport (wasn't in too much of a hurry) and make each landing a performance landing (short/soft, power off, etc).


Now, the learning curve was insanely steep. I did have a float rating and about 10 hours behind a constant speed prop, but going to a turbocharged light twin from a 172 was insane. I went into ground school having absolutely no idea about IFR charts or Approach Plates and how to make sense of any of the gibberish printed thereon. But I managed to get through the multi rating and IFR and even got to solo the twin a few times (probably no place does that now).



Of course, my IFR has now been expired 6 years and I have no serious plans on renewing it. But the multi engine experience has helped my career and it won't take very much for me to renew if I ever move on.

[ant_321]

Sorry to go off on a tangent here guys but Daviator, are you sure you can get that app for BB. I've been looking for it and cant find it anywhere. I have seen it for the Iphone and its pretty awesome.

[rjonno]

If you are trying to get into the industry as cheap and efficiently as possible, Do some VFR XCs until you have enough time to get your CPL checkride done (while your airwork is still fresh), then spend the rest of the 50 on your Multi IFR and when you're done that, get your CPL signed off.

[5x5]

PPL, I agree with everyone that the big thing for you to do is fly. As often as you can and as far away as you can.

One thing I didn't see (but if someone else did say it then I agree) is to double up with another pilot you know. It allows you to go further each trip as you're only paying 1/2. That essentially doubles how far you can go. And the whole point is to gain experience flying in different locations and going to airports you haven't been to before. On your own, you tend to be restricted in how far you can go due to the cost.

As well, having another pilot along allows you to assist each other. Another pair of eyes is always helpful and someone else who knows weather and navigation helps as far as the in-flight procedures and decision making goes. Plus if anything goes wrong on the ground you have someone else to help get things sorted out.

Have fun and go places!

[Hedley]

My advice to anyone with less than 1000TT: fly today. Twice if possible. Anyone with less than 1k hrs needs to fly more, and get more stick time and more familiar with wx and being in an airplane, and going somewhere in an airplane.

Somewhere around 1k hrs people start to be pretty competent sticks. The shorter the time period that they logged that 1k hrs in, the better they are. A PPL that has flown 50 hrs for each of the last 20 years simply won't be as sharp as if he had flown 500 hrs in both of the last 2 years. Not sure why that is - something to do with electro-chemical tracks in your brain - but I know it is true.