CHRT Remedy Ruling?

[SilentMajority]

Pandora's box...

Transat, Jazz, and Westjet all have pilots flying over the age of 60 both left and right seat. Pass the medical/ pass the ride/ fly the plane. Same rules - no issues.

You guys really need to get over yourselves.

You forgot to mention....

American Airlines (who currently have more active pilots over age 60 than they do under 40)
United / Continental
Delta / Northwest
Southwest
US Air
Alaska Air
Hawaiian.....and every other carrier throughout NORTH AMERICA.

There would appear to be only ONE remaining carrier on this entire continent who is still force retiring their pilots at age 60......guess who?

[bcflyer]

You forgot to mention....

American Airlines (who currently have more active pilots over age 60 than they do under 40)
United / Continental
Delta / Northwest
Southwest
US Air
Alaska Air
Hawaiian.....and every other carrier throughout NORTH AMERICA.

There would appear to be only ONE remaining carrier on this entire continent who is still force retiring their pilots at age 60......guess who?

How many of the carriers above still have their pensions intact after their bankruptcy? How many of the pilots from the above carriers can retire at 60 with pensions in excess of 100k a year? Not the same situation at all...

[accumulous]

How many of the carriers above still have their pensions intact after their bankruptcy? How many of the pilots from the above carriers can retire at 60 with pensions in excess of 100k a year? Not the same situation at all...

Just another red herring to throw in the boat along with all the other red herrings. Seems to be the constant catch of the day in the dining car on the runaway train. The issue is the right to work.

[Rockie]

How many of the pilots from the above carriers can retire at 60 with pensions in excess of 100k a year? Not the same situation at all...

I don't know where you get your information, but for many years now Air Canada has been hiring 34 year old pilots. Do you know how many of them will get 100k a year pensions?

None, that's how many.

[rudder]

Pandora's box...

Transat, Jazz, and Westjet all have pilots flying over the age of 60 both left and right seat. Pass the medical/ pass the ride/ fly the plane. Same rules - no issues.

You guys really need to get over yourselves.

You forgot to mention....

American Airlines (who currently have more active pilots over age 60 than they do under 40)
United / Continental
Delta / Northwest
Southwest
US Air
Alaska Air
Hawaiian.....and every other carrier throughout NORTH AMERICA.

There would appear to be only ONE remaining carrier on this entire continent who is still force retiring their pilots at age 60......guess who?

Actually, my response was in reference to a suggestion that if AC/ACPA were ever to permit over age 60 pilots to occupy their flight deck that current TC medical or proficiency standards would have to change.

NEWS FLASH....the world does not revolve around AC/ACPA. And out in the real world, things are running just fine. Perhaps tomorrow some 35 year old will fail a PPC, and so might a 61 year old. Perhaps a 64 year old will fail a medical, but so might a 40 year old with previously undiagnosed diabetes. The system works.

And what happens out there in the netherworld of over 65? Don't know yet but guess we will all find out given that the opportunity for a BFOR argument on age 65 may have already been lost due to myopic situational awareness.

[accumulous]

I don't know where you get your information, but for many years now Air Canada has been hiring 34 year old pilots. Do you know how many of them will get 100k a year pensions?

None, that's how many.

Two thousand nine hundred, that's 2900 out of 3000 pilots can NOT make the max years service for pensionable purposes at age 60.

That's virtually everybody, and that sorry statistic has been falling into place for about 3 DECADES now since the Human Rights Commission made it illegal to avoid hiring pilots over the age of 26 or 28 or whatever, thereby opening the door to any qualified pilot regardless of age.

The net result is the other end of the scale. NOTE - you can't discriminate on the basis of age or any of the other prohibited grounds when it comes to hiring. Okay? That was 3 decades ago.

Now you can't discriminate in the realm of RETIRING on the basis of age or any of the other prohibited grounds. So now pilots can decide when they want to retire, not when somebody else tells them.

Among other things, that makes it possible to achieve the years of service required for maximizing pensions.

[mbav8r]

American Airlines (who currently have more active pilots over age 60 than they do under 40)

They have hundreds on furlough, I wonder how many of them are under 40, just saying.
January22,2010
American Airlines Inc. said Friday that it will furlough as many as 175 pilots beginning late next month, its first pilot layoffs in nearly five years.

"The impact of the economy and reduction in capacity over the last 18 months, coupled with lower-than-expected pilot attrition, has resulted in a pilot surplus," the Fort Worth-based carrier said in a prepared statement.

"This was a painful but necessary decision, as this staffing adjustment will better align the size of our pilot organization with the size of our current operation," American said.
Oct2010
FORT WORTH, Texas - American Airlines today announced that it is sending recall notices to 545 flight attendants and 250 pilots. The first group of 25 pilots will be recalled in mid-November.

[rudder]

American Airlines (who currently have more active pilots over age 60 than they do under 40)

They have hundreds on furlough, I wonder how many of them are under 40, just saying.
January22,2010
American Airlines Inc. said Friday that it will furlough as many as 175 pilots beginning late next month, its first pilot layoffs in nearly five years.

"The impact of the economy and reduction in capacity over the last 18 months, coupled with lower-than-expected pilot attrition, has resulted in a pilot surplus," the Fort Worth-based carrier said in a prepared statement.

"This was a painful but necessary decision, as this staffing adjustment will better align the size of our pilot organization with the size of our current operation," American said.
Oct2010
FORT WORTH, Texas - American Airlines today announced that it is sending recall notices to 545 flight attendants and 250 pilots. The first group of 25 pilots will be recalled in mid-November.

Of the nearly 2000 AA pilots that are on layoff, almost all are former TWA pilots that were stapled. Most cannot even remember when they used to be 40

[vic777]

There would appear to be only ONE remaining carrier on this entire continent who is still force retiring their pilots at age 60......guess who?

Keyword is appear. It appears as though anyone from Aug 2009 will be allowed to stay on past Sixty.The lads are talking about getting rid of "train to standard", that is actually very achievable ... too bad ACPA wasn't getting something beneficial for the Pilots, namely getting a slice of the windfall gains the Company will realize because of the "new world order".

[Understated]

It appears as though anyone from Aug 2009 will be allowed to stay on past Sixty.

If the Federal Court issues the requested declaration that Section 15(1)(c) of the CHRA is unconstitutional, anyone after Vilven and Kelly will have the same right to regain their employment.

I found the YYZ Council meeting today quite interesting. 90 minutes on negotiations and 15 minutes on age 60. Pilots admitting that they are still sporting Age 60 stickers on their bags--go figure. The Base Chair not demonstrating any degree of substantial knowledge of the key legal issues that are about to be decided, and openly pondering the prospect of returning pilots receiving both a pension and a wage? Really. No wonder ACPA is in trouble, if our elected reps haven't the slightest clue about the legal consequences of the Tribunal decisions. And for the first time ever, openly admitting to the pilots that the world of abolition of mandatory retirement is upon us, and that we should be prepared to change our expectations. OK. Only about five years and $10 million dollars late, but OK.

Most interesting: no negotiating capital being "wasted" on attempting to revamp the pay system in advance of the train wreck. The next three weeks will be very, very interesting, especially if all four judicial and legislative pronouncements go against ACPA. The King is dead. Long live the King.

[Rockie]

OMG OMG...like...I'm never going to like...you know...like fly with that person.

[BLZD1]

Understated,

Why did you not get up in our meeting and offer some info about age 60?

[Understated]

Why did you not get up in our meeting and offer some info about age 60?

Have you not witnessed what they have done to anybody who has so far attempted to bring any form of neutral discussion into the open on this issue? Freedom of expression? Balanced discussion? Dream on. Not when you are dealing with the holy grail of career progression. The threats of personal harm to many of us are very, very real, and I take them very seriously. Look carefully at your crew and your peers the next time you are in flight planning. That non-descript, silent type could be someone who has a better than average grasp of the facts and issues. One who saves his or her discretion for the better part of valour.

[Rockie]

Understated,

Why did you not get up in our meeting and offer some info about age 60?

No doubt you were at the meeting and witnessed for yourself the attitude of the room. When the pilots start acting like professionals instead of teenage girls with a grudge maybe this can be discussed in an ACPA meeting like adults. Until then it will have to stay in the realm of anonymous forums, tribunals and courts.

[Understated]

No doubt you were at the meeting and witnessed for yourself the attitude of the room.

Such as the parade of individuals to the microphone to express their avowed emotional distress allegedly caused by anyone daring to either stay beyond age 60, or returning after age 60, and openly stating that they could never work on the same crew as one of these individuals. One even suggested that ACPA publish a list of employee numbers of those over age 60, so that all the pilots under age 60 could bid around the older pilot, leaving Air Canada with a problem crewing their flights!

I was also astonished at the continuing lack of awareness of the average pilot of the current state of judicial and legislative developments. This lack of awareness is ultimately the responsibility of the individuals themselves, but ACPA also must share a portion of it. For example, ACPA reps made no attempt to discuss the impending CIRB decision to the DFR complaint, and its probable consequences.

Very few there seemed to acknowledge any awareness that the mandatory retirement saga is no longer a "we-they" issue, if it ever was, although the Chair did suggest that given the change in the social and legal landscape over the last several years it might be a good idea for the union to go back to the membership and seek further direction on the decision taken as a result of the 2006 vote to fight this to the Supreme Court of Canada, if necessary. He said that that vote was a little "stale". Better to wait until the CIRB renders its DFR complaint decision. ACPA won't need to conduct another vote about anything to do with this subject.

Nobody there made any reference whatsoever to Bill C-481, even though it is now probably only a couple of weeks away from proceeding through the last step in Parliament and being passed into law, repealing the mandatory retirement exemption, totally ending anyone's hope of continuing to stave off the inevitable.

[BLZD1]

I was at the meeting and found the Age 60 Discussion a little vague as well. I am pretty sure people are more informed than you think. People just wanted to hear about the Sky Regional Operation and Contract Negotiations. ACPA's age 60 committee chair was not there yesterday to talk about it!

Guys are going to be upset about the Age 60. If or when this changes this is going to affect a lot of people financially and their families lifestyle. In my opinion the only way this will every be figured out is to keep proceeding through the courts system or by parliament. This is not just about 3000 ACPA pilots. If it is going to happen lets do it right so everybody is not happy instead of one group winning the lottery.

[vic777]

One even suggested that ACPA publish a list of employee numbers of those over age 60, so that all the pilots under age 60 could bid around the older pilot, leaving Air Canada with a problem crewing their flights!

Let's see there must be a simple solution to this potential problem AC could have crewing their flights, let's just make all four Pilots on the YYZ HKG route over Sixty, hey, that's the ticket! Maybe AC is already planning for this by putting over 60's on the B777 but not on the list. Gee it looks like that problem would stump Crew Sched for about ten minutes, of course they'd have to pay the drafted over Sixty guys time and a half.

Let's hypothesize ...
Let's say 100 Pilots reach age Sixty every year and stay on another ten years, after Ten years AC might still have in the neighbourhood of 3000 Pilots, but 1000 of them will be 60-70 years old.
Who will control the UNION at that time ... when the senior citizens form 30% of the work force, and another 20% are in their Fifties?

Similar situations will be occurring with every airline. ICAO will change the over Sixty suggestions, at the request of Airlines and Governments.

There's a new world order ... is anybody running ACPA intelligent enough to steer the UNION in the right direction?

[Rockie]

The YYZ chair yesterday said they were looking at the legality of flying through foreign airspace with an older FO/RP occupying the seats when the Captain is in the bunk, as the FO was too old to be in command and the RP wasn't qualified. I was stunned that ACPA didn't know there was only one PIC per aircraft regardless of where he/she happens to be, and equally stunned at the absurd lengths they will go to throw obstacles in the path of eliminating mandatory retirement.

I can think of a lot more beneficial uses of ACPA resources than that.

[morefun]

If it is going to happen lets do it right so everybody is not happy instead of one group winning the lottery.

BLZD1 you pretty much sum up the Air Canada mentality...let's just piss eveyone off....

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

I was at the meeting...

Approximately how many pilots managed to attend the meeting?

[Norwegianwood]

Guys are going to be upset about the Age 60. If or when this changes this is going to affect a lot of people financially and their families lifestyle. In my opinion the only way this will every be figured out is to keep proceeding through the courts system or by parliament. This is not just about 3000 ACPA pilots. If it is going to happen lets do it right so everybody is not happy instead of one group winning the lottery.

So do list the other pilots that are affected by this, you obviously have not been informed that the rest of the world now flies past 60!! OMG where have you been..............................

[BLZD1]

Norwegianwood,

I was referring to the many other companies in Canada that have the same clauses as ACPA does in their contract. This is not just about pilots and airlines. This affects many other industries too.

[Understated]

The YYZ chair yesterday said they were looking at the legality of flying through foreign airspace with an older FO/RP occupying the seats when the Captain is in the bunk, as the FO was too old to be in command and the RP wasn't qualified. I was stunned...

As was I. Fundamental, isn't it?

Since yesterday's meeting I have been going over and over the presentation in my memory, hoping that I could come to a different conclusion than that the MEC reps indeed are not well informed about the core aspects of the major issues. This isn't meant as a criticism, but rather more as an observation. I give them a lot of credit for the time and engery that they donate. But I am still unsettled.

The only conclusion that I can come to, based on the gross misunderstandings that they apparently hold regarding the issues, is that they indeed may not well informed about the key aspects of one or more of the legal proceedings, and that as a result they must necessarily be unable to properly challenge those who are providing them with the information on which they must make their decisions as to the assumptions being made, the risks being assumed, and the potential downside to the union, both in economic terms, and in political terms, of things going contrary to their expectations.

[Lost in Saigon]

At the YYZ LEC meeting they told us that Vilven and Kelly would not appear on the 2011 seniority list because they were not line-checked as of the beginning of 2011. That is another example of ACPA misinformation because they ARE on the 2011 list that was just published.

[Rockie]

I'm beginning to suspect the MEC have no idea themselves what the facts are surrounding this file, probably because they rely totally on the age 60 committee to provide it for them as does the membership at large. Inadvisable for the members, inexcusable for the MEC.