"No phone calls please!"

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sheephunter
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by sheephunter »

With ads that do not have reference to an up and running website where company information can be gained, is an open invitation to phone calls unless everything with regard to the position is disclosed in the ad including at least a min/max salary and work schedule. If the above is met, then absolutely... someone calls and their resume gets filed. The respect needs to be two ways. If you don't want phone calls have the decency to post all the pertinent information of which a candidate could make an educated decision as to whether or not they actually want to throw their name in the hat. And yes, before I waste much time in pursuit, I want to know if we are even in the ballpark, so, what do you pay? Is it worth making the move, and though it doesn't always have to be the money that makes it worth the change, there aren't many that can take a big hit to be happy. For those employing, why get it narrowed down to those final few paper pilots to find out none will make a move for what you can pay. Everyones just wasting each others time. So, I guess unless you want a low timer for nothing, keep posting the ads with no information and "Do not call".
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Doc
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc »

KK7 wrote:Hmmm...

As a professional pilot, my job is to fly an airplane the company owns, in a fashion the company wishes me to fly it.
I've seem MANY instances, where this is not the best of ideas...I've been in situations where doing exactly this would result in disaster for all involved. Generally speaking, and in the vast majority of times, you are correct.....but be careful with all encompassing, blanket statements. It IS your job to do what you say, conditions permitting.
Now, I think I hear your phone ringing....
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by KK7 »

Doc wrote:
KK7 wrote:Hmmm...

As a professional pilot, my job is to fly an airplane the company owns, in a fashion the company wishes me to fly it.
I've seem MANY instances, where this is not the best of ideas...I've been in situations where doing exactly this would result in disaster for all involved. Generally speaking, and in the vast majority of times, you are correct.....but be careful with all encompassing, blanket statements. It IS your job to do what you say, conditions permitting.
Now, I think I hear your phone ringing....

:lol:

Nice, I predicted you would say exactly this when I wrote it... I knew it!

So you're going to compare using pilot judgement/decision making from the standpoint of dealing with unusual situations in an aircraft for safety reasons to not following instructions when applying for a job? Yup, certainly very similar situations.


Also something else I wanted to comment on that was said earlier. I don't think you can compare the reachability of your chief pilot when you're an active employee of the company to his/her reachability when you haven't even had an interview with the company. I sometimes have to reach my chief pilot in urgent situations, and I would hope he doesn't have to spend all his time answering silly questions to potential employees at inconvenient times. He's a very busy person with a lot on his plate, and he does a great job making himself available for discussions. I know the company I work for if people could just call him if they had any interest in even applying for the job, he's have to hire a full time assistant just to answer the phone. I think with respect to other industries, accepting phone calls from potential employees asking questions before being offered an interview is the exception, not the rule. These managers have more important things to do with their time, like managing their employees.
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Doc
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc »

KK, shall we agree to disagree? I guess your employees need more managing than ours.
Fly safe.
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Gannet167
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Gannet167 »

I've worked in a number of different industries and it's very common, if not the generally accepted norm that you see a job advertised, do your own research on the company and build a resume and cover letter tailored to the job and the company. You can call to follow up, but generally the norm is "only those selected will be contacted." That means don't call, we'll call you.

It's up to the applicant to build a stand out application and demonstrate that they know key things about the company and the position. A lot of companies only accept applications online and their computer auto screens your application for key words that are part of their culture or operation. If you're not the right applicant, they wont call you. Calling them isn't going to help you stand out - if you stood out they would call you. If you don't meet the requirements, calling the office to have a chat isn't going to compensate for your lack of qualifications.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

TG wrote:Good post Louis except this.
Louis wrote:Unlike some posters I don't completely mind waiting for an interview before discussing pay and work conditions in more detail.
Sort of saying you will accept whatever they have to offer.
Not like that at all. If there's not a fixed salary scale (in which case you should be able to easily find out the salary ahead of time) you don't want to talk money until the very end. Your negotiating position is much stronger after the company has already decided they like you and want to hire you. It's not always about the cheapest bum in the seat. Some people will be willing to pay a bit more to get somebody they think will do a good job and be a good fit in the company.
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Doc
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc »

Joe Blow....I think the very first thing on the table should be money. If it ain't enough, the conversation/interview is over. I'm not wasting my time, or theirs. eg. If the salary is within this range, let's chat. Otherwise, ciao. Of course, if it's a standard pay scale, and it isn't large enough, let someone else have the job. Simple.
Show me the money!
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justplanecrazy
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by justplanecrazy »

Cranium wrote:As the guy who wound up answering the phone at our shop through my apprenticeship, I actually sympathize with the employers. I would rather read through a resume and answer any questions in a cover letter or during an interview than stop what I'm doing and risk pissing off a PAYING customer just to answer the phone 40 times a day just to answer questions like:

1. "So, um, how much do you pay?"
2. "How much vacation do I get?"
If you don't want to be asked the questions, then post the answers in the job posting. Seems simple enough to me. If you don't post the pay and vacation, then expect to get calls from pilots that don't want to waste your time or theirs in a lengthy interview.
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TG
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by TG »

In real estate, they have this lame strategy of "forcing" any potential buyer to call.
-->By not writing down a house's price in its advert<--

So yes,
justplanecrazy wrote:If you don't want to be asked the questions, then post the answers in the job posting.
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Gannet167
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Gannet167 »

justplanecrazy wrote: If you don't want to be asked the questions, then post the answers in the job posting. Seems simple enough to me. If you don't post the pay and vacation, then expect to get calls from pilots that don't want to waste your time or theirs in a lengthy interview.
That is also the standard convention for posting jobs - put all the critical info in the advertisement.
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jeta1
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by jeta1 »

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Last edited by jeta1 on Sun May 06, 2012 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KK7
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by KK7 »

Doc wrote:KK, shall we agree to disagree? I guess your employees need more managing than ours.
Fly safe.
We can definitely agree to disagree 8)

Our company has 703 and 705, operating world wide in some very difficult conditions and rapidly changing situations. The CP has over 100 pilots floating around the world to deal with, plus training and staying current on several aircraft. Because of the locations of our bases, he's made himself available to us at all hours of the day or night. We get complex requests from the customer that have a lot of gray legal areas that he has to deal with. So yeah, he's a busy guy. I suppose if you wanted a job at Air Canada you expect to be able to call them up and get the answers you need?

I think pretty much all companies do a pretty good job at making themselves available. Of course their going to do it on their own schedule, and that's called an interview. Just because you accept to go to an interview without info like salary ahead of time, doesn't mean you're accepting whatever conditions they are offering. To me an interview is more than just a company seeing if they want to hire you, but also for the pilot to see if they want to work for the company. If they offer a job, you are allowed to say no! I usually go into interviews with a long list of questions on a pad of paper ahead of time, and I often end up asking the interviewers more questions than they ask me, unless they happen to give me most of the info I was looking for on their own, which they sometimes do. I take notes, and if they offer a job, I don't just accept it right away even if it looks unbelievable. I at least take a day to consider the angles and make an informed decision that I sleep on first.

The interview is the time the company gives you to ask all the questions you can possibly think of, and you have their 100% attention. If you don't like what they have to offer right there in the interview, just say so.
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Benwa
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Benwa »

What I do is send an email with the salary, etc to those invited to an interview. That way, if they are not interested in the conditions, we won't waste each other's time.

Those that weren't selected will receive an email when all the positions are filled. That way they don't wait for a call eternally.

I don't mind the occasional drop-in, but I only have a couple per week. Phone calls, I don't mind, but if I'm busy, you might get the voicemail.
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Go Juice
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Go Juice »

I guess some company are ashamed of what they are paying their pilot. So they won't tell you in the ad, and they won't take your phone calls because they are SO important.

But after under paid pilot to be drives 2000km to the middle of nowhere in his best up honda civic for the said interview, they finally tell him about the low pay. He just drove 2000km so ot course he'll take the job, IT IS HIS DREAM after all.

So when he tells to O SO BUSY chief Pilot that he'll take the job, the CP looks at him with a used car salesman sile and tell him: let's talk about your training bond.....


Have a nice day ppl
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by DHCdriver »

If the ad says " NO PHONE CALLS PLEASE" and salary "TBD" I keep on searching, they obvisiously are not the company for me. I like the family type companys where everybody is treated the same, your not just a number. If they can't take the time to talk to the applicants that meet the requirements and tell you what they are going to pay you for what you have to offer, then a alarm goes off in my head. STAY AWAY. Just my 2 cents. Happy flying everybody. :ANAL:
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trey kule
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by trey kule »

I find it almost unbelievable that people would post some of the contents here because they felt the potential employer's policies and attitudes were interferring with their career path.

Lets look at the original post. Guy ignored the please do not call...and called. Damned if he was going to let the employer dictate what would affect his career path. And he got put straight. Not his fault. Not at all. Damn employer. So he comes on a public forum and posts that anybody that does not take calls is an big egotist and should get over themselves..He does not see the irony in that.

But lets be clear. And I speak from only the company I work for. After everyone at the company has had input, a list of must haves/should haves/nice to haves is drawn up and the ad posted. Some details are not posted at that time for two reasons. 1. About 50%, or better of the resumes received are from people who dont fit the profile we are looking for by not meeting the stated requirements., and 2. We do not wish to provide details of pay for the world, our competitiors, or for any of those who are pissed off about something in our ad and will come out and rant. We sometimes do not even list type of a/c if it is new type coming on line .
qualified canidates receive a complete information package with duties , salaries, compensation, etc. If they choose to fill out the app and submit it with the required docs everyone is pretty much aware of how things wil be. At the interview questions are encouraged, but we try to make as much info available beforehand as we understand some people are a bit timid in the interview setting. We have little turnover, and I think we do a good job at selecting the right people.

If there is time available and we get the odd phone call or walkin , no one has a problem with that. But when you post a job , the phone calls pour in. Should we make time? Look at some of the posts.. If the ad says no phone calls, drop by in person...(does he get why the no phone calls is there?). Pretend you didnt read the ad (another honest person..the kind you can trust when they say they just got delayed somewhere for traffic).
Here is a true story. The CP is in a meeting with four people. He gets called out of the meeting to the phone because it is a "family matter". It is some clever little pilot who has figured a way to get by the front desk The CP asks how this is a family matter, and is told that the pilot wants to become a member of their aviaition family. The phone call ended right after the CP politely got the pilots name so he could put it in the never never hire file , and share it with the CP's of other companies. It would not surprise me if that pilot does did post on here to tell the CP to get over himself.

Look at the two main viewpoints and the people they are coming from. Hopefully some of you young ones will see who is who and their viewpoint. Honesty is everybit as important as flight requirements. Please keep that in mind when you come up with some teenage clever tricks for getting the CP on the phone, and good luck to all those who are honest, can follow instructions, and dont feel the need to come on here and demean any future employer. You may not be as anoymous as you think.
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Doc
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by Doc »

trey kule wrote:I find it almost unbelievable that people would post some of the contents here because they felt the potential employer's policies and attitudes were interferring with their career path.

Lets look at the original post. Guy ignored the please do not call...and called. Damned if he was going to let the employer dictate what would affect his career path. And he got put straight. Not his fault. Not at all. Damn employer. So he comes on a public forum and posts that anybody that does not take calls is an big egotist and should get over themselves..He does not see the irony in that.

But lets be clear. And I speak from only the company I work for. After everyone at the company has had input, a list of must haves/should haves/nice to haves is drawn up and the ad posted. Some details are not posted at that time for two reasons. 1. About 50%, or better of the resumes received are from people who dont fit the profile we are looking for by not meeting the stated requirements., and 2. We do not wish to provide details of pay for the world, our competitiors, or for any of those who are pissed off about something in our ad and will come out and rant. We sometimes do not even list type of a/c if it is new type coming on line .
qualified canidates receive a complete information package with duties , salaries, compensation, etc. If they choose to fill out the app and submit it with the required docs everyone is pretty much aware of how things wil be. At the interview questions are encouraged, but we try to make as much info available beforehand as we understand some people are a bit timid in the interview setting. We have little turnover, and I think we do a good job at selecting the right people.

If there is time available and we get the odd phone call or walkin , no one has a problem with that. But when you post a job , the phone calls pour in. Should we make time? Look at some of the posts.. If the ad says no phone calls, drop by in person...(does he get why the no phone calls is there?). Pretend you didnt read the ad (another honest person..the kind you can trust when they say they just got delayed somewhere for traffic).
Here is a true story. The CP is in a meeting with four people. He gets called out of the meeting to the phone because it is a "family matter". It is some clever little pilot who has figured a way to get by the front desk The CP asks how this is a family matter, and is told that the pilot wants to become a member of their aviaition family. The phone call ended right after the CP politely got the pilots name so he could put it in the never never hire file , and share it with the CP's of other companies. It would not surprise me if that pilot does did post on here to tell the CP to get over himself.

Look at the two main viewpoints and the people they are coming from. Hopefully some of you young ones will see who is who and their viewpoint. Honesty is everybit as important as flight requirements. Please keep that in mind when you come up with some teenage clever tricks for getting the CP on the phone, and good luck to all those who are honest, can follow instructions, and dont feel the need to come on here and demean any future employer. You may not be as anoymous as you think.
Good points....but....if you had time to sit down and post that "rant", surely you had time to field a couple of phone calls?
Just screwing with ya.
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scopiton
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by scopiton »

I like the family type companys where everybody is treated the same, your not just a number
I've never seen a family type business treating each employee equally but the contrary to say the least.
if you want to be treated equally be a number in a seniority list. no personal criteria will impair judgement over your performances.
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by highlander »

I have been on both sides. What I can tell you is that as a CP, I always did try and take phone calls as well as meet people that came down in person. However, i will say that answering phones and doing "tours" or meet and greets does take up time in an already busy day. When we did advertising for positions we would frequently get at least 75-100 resumes or more for the one advertisement. Of those, maybe 12-20 would be a combination of phone calls and the ocassional drop-in for a visit. It consumes time. Factor in that I still haven't called people for formal interviews and the interviews themselves! (it makes sense why larger companies have an HR department!) When your role involves other things (training, flying, sops, admin, testing, etc.,) it eats in to a lot of the valuable time you need to fulfill other things.

My only "beef" is that people call with inappropriate questions. My advice is to try and learn about the company- this can be done usually through the website or a place like avcanada. Talk to people! Then, from there, see if any of the information you find, answers your questions. If it doesn't, then perhaps the questions left are appropriate to ask.
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trey kule
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Re: "No phone calls please!"

Post by trey kule »

Good points....but....if you had time to sit down and post that "rant", surely you had time to field a couple of phone calls?
Just screwing with ya
Actually, I had to sacrifice my scarce,informative and valuable porn surfing and email joke reading time to make the rant. I suppose I could give up coffee and lunch breaks to make time for phone calls. What do you think the chance of that happening is?
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