Boeing wins 30+ billion dollar tanker deal . . .

[bizjets101]

Flight Global Story

[moocow]

Airbus still have 98 days to contest the ruling. Somehow Boeing winning doesn't surprise me at all.

[SunWuKong]

The US want free market, but free in only one direction, otherwise let's spy, let's pay lawyers, let do some lobbying inside the government.
When the Europeans will understand what means for the US free market, they will pay attention to what they buy, keeping in mind that Euro zone is the first exporting destination for the US...

Bizjet, is this pic for real? I know that Airbus already has an operational tanker, but the Boeing one doesn't exist (and of course it won't cost more than what Boeing says today... aviation industry always respect cost as everybody knows...)

[cdnpilot77]

The US want free market, but free in only one direction, otherwise let's spy, let's pay lawyers, let do some lobbying inside the government.
When the Europeans will understand what means for the US free market, they will pay attention to what they buy, keeping in mind that Euro zone is the first exporting destination for the US...

Bizjet, is this pic for real? I know that Airbus already has an operational tanker, but the Boeing one doesn't exist (and of course it won't cost more than what Boeing says today... aviation industry always respect cost as everybody knows...)

It was a flawed decision based on illegal subsidies from european countries in the original airbus award. How can anyone be critical of a nation that choses their own companies in matters of national security? Good decisions to go with a proven entity!

[kevind]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_KC-767

[CaptainHaddock]

Damn, I was hoping Viking would have got it, they could have made a modified turbofan, pressurized caribou, with a glass cockpit.oh well

[bizjets101]

SunWuKong - photo above is artist's conception; Boeing Link

Click Here video/photos/virtual tour.

[Mach1]

Well, you know what they should have done? They should have gone with F-18's! That's the only viable aircraft in the...

Oh wait, sorry. Wrong thread.

[SunWuKong]

CDN pilot:

How can anyone be critical of a nation that choses their own companies in matters of national security?

In fact, said like that, I agree. But in this case there is no need to make people believe (because that's what we expect from the others country, as a potential customer...) tankers are a free market.
It looks like do as I say, not as I do.



Thank you for the link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_KC-767

The Boeing KC-767 is a military aerial refueling and strategic transport aircraft developed from the Boeing 767-200ER. The tanker received the designation KC-767A in 2002, after being selected by the US Air Force initially to replace older KC-135Es. In December 2003, the contract was frozen and later canceled due to corruption allegations.

In December 2003, the Pentagon announced the project was to be frozen while an investigation of allegations of corruption by one if its former procurement staffers, Darleen Druyun (who had moved to Boeing in January) was begun. Reporter Joseph Galloway wrote that some documents found in congressional investigation indicated the A330-based tanker met more of the USAF specifications than the Boeing tanker and had a lower proposed cost.[7][8] Druyun pleaded guilty and was sentenced to nine months in jail for "negotiating a job with Boeing at the same time she was involved in contracts with the company".[9] Additional fallout included the resignation of Boeing CEO Philip M. Condit and the termination of CFO Michael M. Sears.

[SunWuKong]

Funny thing is that the Boeing KC46 doesn't exist yet, its first flight is scheduled for 2015 according to flight global. Yet Boeing won because its cost is 1% lower (how convenient, no spying for sure) than the Airbus one. That's a total joke, because no one is able to respect the cost of a future airplane to be built. Meanwhile the Airbus one is bigger, go further, carry more fuel, and is already in service...I think one day the europeans will understand what's going on. And it won't be good for the western civilization when they will have to face the up coming asia.

[fish4life]

they should have used the 777 as a platform

[2R]

The weapons that will end the next big war will come from a laboratory.
The worries that where created by signatories to the Geneva convention of 1870 against the use of chemical and biological weapons on civilians pale when comparred to the new enemy.The new enemies are NOT signatories to any convention and civilians will be the targets of these criminal terrorists using weapons that you can get at almost any medical laboratory.
Bin Ladens family owns a biotech company in Maryland.

[SunWuKong]

The weapons that will end the next big war will come from a laboratory.

You said it, the next big war. This is exaclty what it comes to mind in our new post cold war world. We don't even know who is with who. And nobody tries hard to be really friend with anybody in the west.

Let's say north korea (just an example) declare war to south korea, who will support north korea, china? what about south korea? japan? Japan has close ties to the US, and china is an UN permanent member...

Useless nationalism, proudness, propaganda, arrogance we can find in china or in the US won't help.

Japan is already increasing its army spending to prepare war against north korea (and china). China is increasing its spendings as well, but increasing so much that they keep it secret to avoid to scare their western customer.
The US can only decrease its spendings at that point. In addition we have some nuclear power in north america (decreasing), europe, russia (decreasing), middle east, asia.
What a mess. I am not sure about the terrorists, i don't beleive a world war will start with them.
People like me who cannot stand ideology and nationalistic proudness, who feel more like an human being than a national flag carrier, will watch the upcoming war with extreme sadness.
If europe and the US cannot act as real and respectful friend, instead of using the other one as a tool to make more money, and not playing fair, then the western civilization and the world is in danger. Too bad we cannot sense it, as we always think history is something of the past and nothing big can happen anymore. Today's is tomorrow history, and history will never stop.

One thing has changed, the US is not out of reach the other side of the atlantic or pacific anymore, like it was during WW1 and WW2 (even a V2 couldn't cross the atlantic), while the US could play the one who have nothing to do with anything, so that they can remain neutral to make business, and play the heroes at the end. A little war in Irak cost a fortune, but a world war will lead the US to bankrupcy this time (WW2 made them rich). This part has changed, still nobody can see it. I don't beleive the europeans will be dumb enough to accept a second "cash and carry" when the threat touches everybody.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

The weapons that will end the next big war will come from a laboratory.

You said it, the next big war. This is exaclty what it comes to mind in our new post cold war world. We don't even know who is with who. And nobody tries hard to be really friend with anybody in the west.

Let's say north korea (just an example) declare war to south korea, who will support north korea, china? what about south korea? japan? Japan has close ties to the US, and china is an UN permanent member...

Useless nationalism, proudness, propaganda, arrogance we can find in china or in the US won't help.

Japan is already increasing its army spending to prepare war against north korea (and china). China is increasing its spendings as well, but increasing so much that they keep it secret to avoid to scare their western customer.
The US can only decrease its spendings at that point. In addition we have some nuclear power in north america (decreasing), europe, russia (decreasing), middle east, asia.
What a mess. I am not sure about the terrorists, i don't beleive a world war will start with them.
People like me who cannot stand ideology and nationalistic proudness, who feel more like an human being than a national flag carrier, will watch the upcoming war with extreme sadness.
If europe and the US cannot act as real and respectful friend, instead of using the other one as a tool to make more money, and not playing fair, then the western civilization and the world is in danger. Too bad we cannot sense it, as we always think history is something of the past and nothing big can happen anymore. Today's is tomorrow history, and history will never stop.

One thing has changed, the US is not out of reach the other side of the atlantic or pacific anymore, like it was during WW1 and WW2 (even a V2 couldn't cross the atlantic), while the US could play the one who have nothing to do with anything, so that they can remain neutral to make business, and play the heroes at the end. A little war in Irak cost a fortune, but a world war will lead the US to bankrupcy this time (WW2 made them rich). This part has changed, still nobody can see it. I don't beleive the europeans will be dumb enough to accept a second "cash and carry" when the threat touches everybody.

Once again, More US Bashing because of your WW2 obsession .

[slam525i]

So, bringing the thread back on topic:

I thought Boeing's argument was that the KC-767 met the requirements for the RFP and that there shouldn't have been bonus-marks given for exceeding the spec. Is that not the case? (I only get news on the project from American media.)

I know there was a cluster-F of impropriety there, especially with government officials finding jobs in Boeing. I'm just wondering what the most neutral story is (if there is one). I had the impression that Boeing had won, but because of the scandal they had to lose on the 2nd round, but that the final round did show the 767 to be the cheapest while meeting the specs. Unbiased insight (if there is such a thing) would be appreciated.

[SunWuKong]

More US Bashing

Oh common! US bashing, now poor you (if you are from the US). Sure there is too much US bashing here, Airbus is the queen on this website. Look, I cannot even say how the space shuttle was designed without all of my post being deleted. There is objectively no english speaking internet forum in the world without airbus bashing, and you still complain?
Anyway I didn't know that speaking about the truth meant US bashing. Interesting...

Anyway, again when you have nothing to say, you have only 2 options apparently, insults and images, look at yourself in the mirror when you copy a pic from google image:

[SunWuKong]

In late 2007, the national airline of the Kingdom of Bahrain announced a huge deal to buy airplanes from European aviation giant Airbus. But only a few weeks later, Gulf Air’s decision was suddenly reversed and a new contract signing ceremony with US aerospace rival Boeing was scheduled to coincide with then US President George W. Bush’s trip to Bahrain – the first ever visit of a sitting US president.

Airbus had been sidelined by backdoor dealings at the highest levels, and not even an eleventh-hour appeal by French President Nicolas Sarkozy could undo the damage. It was just one of many incidents of US diplomatic wrangling that led foreign governments to favour Boeing over Airbus.

Hundreds of newly leaked cables, obtained by the US daily the New York Times, show that US diplomats have aggressively lobbied foreign governments to buy commercial jetliners built by the Seattle-based airplane manufacturer.

“United States diplomats were acting like marketing agents, offering deals to heads of state and airline executives whose decisions could be influenced by price, performance and, as with all finicky customers with plenty to spend, perks,” the daily wrote.

The cables describe how US diplomatic staff approached, wooed and sometimes cajoled foreign officials who were still considering whether to buy airplanes from Boeing or Airbus. The bargaining chips included not only presidential visits, but negotiations over landing rights at New York’s John F. Kennedy Airport and private jet upgrades.

The leaked embassy cables shed new light on what is recognised as one of the most bitter and ongoing transatlantic commercial feuds, despite a decades-old trade agreement between US and European leaders to keep politics out of airline deals.

But with billions of dollars and tens of thousands of jobs at stake US and European diplomats felt compelled to intervene, especially during an economic crisis.

While it is common knowledge that diplomats intervene to promote their country’s businesses, the newly leaked cables reveal the extensive backroom negotiations propelling major multinational aviation contracts.

In the case of the Gulf Air contract, it was the former US ambassador, Adam Ereli, who appealed directly to the kingdom’s crown prince to overturn the deal reached between the airline company and Airbus, even though the Airbus deal was 400 million dollars less than Boeing’s offer, the cables revealed.

“Seeing that Airbus had been outmanoeuvred, France’s president, Nicolas Sarkozy, made a last minute bid to save the deal… He offered to visit Bahrain after Bush had left, but that stop-over was cancelled when the Boeing agreement was signed in January 2008,” the New York Times reported.

In 2006, a senior Commerce Department official hand-delivered a personal letter from former President Bush to the Jeddah office of the Saudi King, urging him to buy 43 Boeing jets. According to the cables, the king replied in turn with a personal request: “all the technology that his friend, President Bush, had on Air Force One,” for his own private jet.

According to the New York Times, the cables also suggest demands for bribes “still take place”. But the embassy documents also revealed that Boeing and US officials turned away some requests to hire intermediaries who charge illegal commissions

[Darkwing Duck]

Really, is this any real big surprise? When was the last time the Yanks bought a foreign airframe recently that they have not or could not build themselves. Heaven forbid that they use something that does not have the "Proudly Made in the Good Ole USA" stamped on it.

[bizjets101]

They are also vindictive.

In the mid 80's to sweeten the deal for a Crown Corporation Air Canada order - Boeing bought back Air Canada B747's, and agreed to buy de Havilland (also a crown corporation) and furthermore agreed to keep the Twin Otter and Dash-7 in production - plus agreed not to cut jobs.

Our Govt. choose 32 Airbus A320's over Boeing B737's - Boeing destroyed all the jigs for the Twin Otter, and Dash-7 and put the company for sale - thus putting in jeopardy thousands of Canadian jobs.

Our Prime Minister at the time was accused of accepting kickbacks - and in turned sued the new Canadian Govt of defamation - we the people settled with Mulroney by agreeing to pay his 2.1 million dollar legal bill.

Then along came Schreiber, we find out Mulroney did in fact accept money, though he claimed an entire story to 'how' he came to get this undeclared cash.

Schreiber was able to prove all banking records proving the cash existed, and even providing the Swiss accountant who set up a secret coded account for Mulroney.

Harper swore he'd get to the bottom of it and hold hearings - which turned into a joke - Click Here if you want to read the Oliphant report you paid millions of dollars for.

So Boeing lost out, de Havilland got privatized and sold, hundreds of de Havilland employees jobs were lost, the DHC-6 and Dash-7's were discontinued (destroyed), Canadian's paid millions of dollars - to Boeing for buying de Havilland, to Mulroney's lawsuit, to the Oliphant report.

Air Canada got A320's and the Crown Corporation got sold off.

Bombardier got de Havilland and didn't have to worry about all the stuff Boeing lied about when it bought the Crown Corporation (saving jobs etc...)

Karlheinz Schreiber gets booted out of the country.

Oh and Mulroney - the part I liked, he admitted to pocketing 225k - 100k he picked up in New York - and never declared it coming home - considering he is the Prime Minister who signed into law - declaring 10k or more at the boarder.

It's good to be Prime Minister - even if they catch you lying, cheating, stealing - no problem,
your not getting charged, your not going to jail - and you don't even have to give the money back. Plus they'll be afraid to try and out you again - because it cost's millions of dollars for us to hear a BS story and then do nothing about it.

And it only took from 1986 until 2010 - yup Harpers commission really got to the bottom of things just like he promised - and boy did that cost us.

[cyeg66]

Who cares about all that mumbo-jumbo? In a close fought, "open" <cough, cough> competition, I would expect the country to support its own industry rather than exporting work (I know, I know, a large % of the Airbus would have been awarded to Stateside businesses...) and $$$ to another continent. I just think the 767 looks cool with winglets. It'll do the job just fine and the U.S. will adjust, logistically speaking, to its deficiencies when compared with the A330TT.

[2R]

Ever hear of the Maginot Line.
One of histories greatest white elephants and certainly on of the biggest spending errors in military history.
The Germans drove around the fortified structures that the French had spent most of their military budget building.

The new enemy started with box cutters and have eluded capture.
What the US needs are more forensic accountants to follow the money trail and less expensive toys that are warehoused in secure facilities.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

In late 2007, the national airline of the Kingdom of Bahrain announced a huge deal to buy airplanes from European aviation giant Airbus. But only a few weeks later, Gulf Air’s decision was suddenly reversed and a new contract signing ceremony with US aerospace rival Boeing was scheduled to coincide with then US President George W. Bush’s trip to Bahrain – the first ever visit of a sitting US president.

Airbus had been sidelined by backdoor dealings at the highest levels, and not even an eleventh-hour appeal by French President Nicolas Sarkozy could undo the damage. It was just one of many incidents of US diplomatic wrangling that led foreign governments to favour Boeing over Airbus.

Hundreds of newly leaked cables, obtained by the US daily the New York Times, show that US diplomats have aggressively lobbied foreign governments to buy commercial jetliners built by the Seattle-based airplane manufacturer.

“United States diplomats were acting like marketing agents, offering deals to heads of state and airline executives whose decisions could be influenced by price, performance and, as with all finicky customers with plenty to spend, perks,” the daily wrote.

The cables describe how US diplomatic staff approached, wooed and sometimes cajoled foreign officials who were still considering whether to buy airplanes from Boeing or Airbus. The bargaining chips included not only presidential visits, but negotiations over landing rights at New York’s John F. Kennedy Airport and private jet upgrades.

The leaked embassy cables shed new light on what is recognised as one of the most bitter and ongoing transatlantic commercial feuds, despite a decades-old trade agreement between US and European leaders to keep politics out of airline deals.

But with billions of dollars and tens of thousands of jobs at stake US and European diplomats felt compelled to intervene, especially during an economic crisis.

While it is common knowledge that diplomats intervene to promote their country’s businesses, the newly leaked cables reveal the extensive backroom negotiations propelling major multinational aviation contracts.

In the case of the Gulf Air contract, it was the former US ambassador, Adam Ereli, who appealed directly to the kingdom’s crown prince to overturn the deal reached between the airline company and Airbus, even though the Airbus deal was 400 million dollars less than Boeing’s offer, the cables revealed.

“Seeing that Airbus had been outmanoeuvred, France’s president, Nicolas Sarkozy, made a last minute bid to save the deal… He offered to visit Bahrain after Bush had left, but that stop-over was cancelled when the Boeing agreement was signed in January 2008,” the New York Times reported.

In 2006, a senior Commerce Department official hand-delivered a personal letter from former President Bush to the Jeddah office of the Saudi King, urging him to buy 43 Boeing jets. According to the cables, the king replied in turn with a personal request: “all the technology that his friend, President Bush, had on Air Force One,” for his own private jet.

According to the New York Times, the cables also suggest demands for bribes “still take place”. But the embassy documents also revealed that Boeing and US officials turned away some requests to hire intermediaries who charge illegal commissions

Whenever someone disagrees, they are wrong you are right. Because you are Christ, and you only speak the truth. Get over your bullshit. Its nauseating. It is your opinion based on a set of information.

Thanks for the Google Images Tip : Now if you would kindly accept mine ......

[Fling Wing]

Look at there economy, I know Canada is far from recovering, but the US seems to be lagging behind quite a bit. It seems like a wise choice to keep their own citizens employed instead of another country's.

[stick'n'rudder]

F**k Airbus!

[bmc]

F**k Airbus!

Why?