Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Interested in aerobatics or information on an airshow place your topics here.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

User avatar
skybaron
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:46 pm
Location: Hotel De Glace

Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by skybaron »

Always wanted to give aerobatics a go, anyone have any suggestions of a good place to start? (preferably the BC area or the US). Ideally i'd want to add the class 2 rating when it's all said and done.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Hedley on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
cdnpilot77
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2467
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by cdnpilot77 »

I know it's the opposite coast, but big fan of his:

http://executiveflyers.com/mike_goulian/
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Hedley on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
skybaron
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:46 pm
Location: Hotel De Glace

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by skybaron »

Thanks for the links. I appreciate your responses.

Also, let's say I take a 10hr initial course in the US, on a decathlon perhaps -

Would TC honor that time in an "N" registered aircraft, for the prerequisite 10 hrs required to obtain a class 2 aerobatic instructor rating?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Hedley on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
looproll
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:51 pm

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by looproll »

I flew the S-2C at Attitude Aviation when I was down in California, and it was a great "bang for the buck"
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by looproll on Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Hedley on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
looproll
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:51 pm

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by looproll »

I was comparing the rate at Attitude ($244/hr for an S-2C) to Harv's of $347/hr for an S-2B. Gotta love 260 Horsepower and that 3 bladed Hartzell Claw! :D :D :D
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
looproll
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:51 pm

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by looproll »

upon further investigation $347 looks to be the dual rate at Harvs which isn't too bad, but I still love the S2-C!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Hedley on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
looproll
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:51 pm

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by looproll »

Harvs only posts the dual rate, and Attitude shows only the aircraft rate online. I checked and 0.9hrs in the S-2C with Mark Little and ground briefing cost me $471.08 CAD. It was worth it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by looproll on Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Hedley on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
P-40
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:54 pm
Location: FL360

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by P-40 »

Hedley wrote:
S-2C at Attitude Aviation ... in California ... cheaper than anything in Canada
A few comments:

1) there are no S-2C's for rent in Canada AFAIK. I think there is one on the registry now. How he imported it, I have no idea. Transport told me the S-2C was "not eligible" for import into Canada, so I gave up and stuck to S-2B's which were already on the registry. I simply didn't have the energy to argue with Transport about the S-2C which had the same type certificate and production type certificate as the S-2B, and even if it didn't, there HAD to be some process to add a new type to the registry, otherwise no one could have ever imported any aircraft. I got tired of arguing with people who were always away on course or sick or vacation and gave up and stuck to S-2B's.

2) I have flown at Attitude Aviation in past years - great place, Rich and I have had a lot of fun - but "cheap" would never come to mind, to describe my experiences there. Looking at their web site, the S-2C rents for USD$244/hr and aerobatic instruction ranges from $65/hr to $110/hr, which adds up to a dual rate of USD$309/hr to USD$354/hr. I suspect the dual aerobatic instruction rate on the Pitts would run to the high range, so USD$350/hr would not be surprising.

3) There is very, very little aerobatic training available anywhere in Canada at any price, so I'm not sure what you're comparing the above rate, to. Harvsair has Citabria and Pitts S-2B, but I don't recall what their rates are. I doubt they're getting rich off whatever aerobatic training they offer, though, considering the short operating season.

There is indeed a Canadian registered S-2C (1998) here in southern Alberta.
---------- ADS -----------
 
swervin
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:33 pm

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by swervin »

Do you offer Dual in your S2-B Hedley?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Hedley on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RetroAcro
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:47 pm

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by RetroAcro »

Hedley wrote: For example, the hammerhead. You should NOT be flying hammerheads until you are familiar with inverted spins (and recovery from them) because sooner or later you are going to be in one, esp if you have a metal prop (why?).
Agree with receiving spin training before doing hammerheads (or acro period), but not necessarily the sooner or later part. Depends on the pilot, I guess. It is true that newbie acro pilots (like new pilots in general) are very inventive at finding ways to screw up. I know someone with a Pitts S-1C who claimed that when attempting hammerheads, he found himself in a spin half the time. When I started learning them, I never understood how someone could so easily get into a spin. I have definitely done some ugly hammers during the learning process (and still torque some pretty good), but never came close to spinning my S-1S with a metal prop. Seems hard to get close to an accidental spin if you're half paying attention and don't so something extremely clumsy and silly with the elevator. The same is true of inadvertent spins in general, acro or not. I received a decent amount of advanced spin training before doing acro, so resulting from this, my instincts have always been to neutralize the controls as soon as a maneuver is blown and might get into spin territory.

So to see what all the fuss was about, one day I decided to try to force an inverted spin in the way I assumed someone would likely blow a hammerhead. During the hammer pivot I applied full forward stick and left full rudder and power in. Needless to say, the results were uncomfortable, but not startling. It would be hard to describe what resulted as a "spin". More like a buried, yet increasingly negative-loaded outside snap. Regardless, recovery is the same as for a spin.

I still have many years of an acro "career" ahead of me, but I haven't YET found myself in an accidental spin. Closest thing was snapping out of a push done too hard at too slow a speed...but there was no spin, since there was little rudder applied at the time. I find it amazing the lack of experience and understanding of spins among CFIs. Most seem to think that ANY time the ball is not centered as the airplane stalls, that a spin will result. Some think you are risking a spin by flying with your feet flat on the floor. I’ve never flown an airplane that will enter a spin without touching the rudder. They don’t seem to understand the difference between the ball being offcenter due to TOO MUCH rudder vs. TOO LITTLE. One is a potential spin producer, the other is not. This kind of rudder awareness will serve all pilots well, acro or not.

I’m not at all minimizing the importance of spin training. I’m a strong advocate of it…and not just the plain vanilla upright spins you might do in a 172. That barely scratches the surface of the subject. But with proper training and awareness, you’ll likely never NEED to recover from an accidental spin. But you’re not a competent pilot if you’re not comfortable with EVERY potential of an airplane’s flight envelope…as long as it can be performed safely. So purely in the interest of becoming a competent pilot, I don’t understand why more people don’t seek spin training. Probably the culture of fear being passed down by CFIs who themselves are scared of them. Too bad.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by Hedley »

deleted
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Hedley on Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RetroAcro
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:47 pm

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by RetroAcro »

Hedley wrote:
I haven't YET found myself in an accidental spin
Talk to me about your recovery procedure from tumbles.
The emphasis was on "YET". :wink: I don't do tumbles in my Pitts with my metal prop and lightened crank flange, so I obviously have no experience with the quickest method of recovery, nor recovery period. But I'm not aware of anything you can do in a Pitts that pulling power and centering the stick and rudder won't recover you from.

Sooner or later finding yourself in a spin may be true, depending on how far you advance into acro, but my comments were directed toward hammerheads in particular. After someone has reached a certain level of competance, and if they never spun out of hammerhead to begin with, I think it's likely they never will.
---------- ADS -----------
 
cgzro
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1735
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:45 am

Re: Aerobatics for beginners - where to do your training?

Post by cgzro »

I suppose you could let go of the controls and cut the power as a spin recovery technique in a single seat Pitts and they do recover after a few turns that way assuming the C of G is about right, but nowhere near as fast as a quick jab of opposite rudder at the same time. The inverted spin recovery is near instantaneous with a jab of rudder so I sure would not want to forgo that especially in the 1-2000 foot range where contest stuff happens ;)

What I find, and its probably similar to what you now realize, is that if you know where you are, then you know what is going to happen for a given control input so you naturally avoid pushing it over the edge. Take the push humpty for example .. if you get too slow and find yourself with a wack load of right aileron, with the rudder nearly fully deflected and pushing the crap out of it to get the nose over and ligned up .. well you can kind of feel when she breaks away on you and just the slightest reduction in forward pressure, or rudder and allowing a more bridged flight over the top, or some off heading yaw will stop the little beastie from doing a pretty little outside avalanche at the top ;)

Actually I find that practicing snaps really gives you a good feel for the plane and doing snaps at various power settings and speeds and stopping them bang on is one way to demonstrate your at least temporary mastery of the little beast. I think if you can control an inside and outside snap you have a pretty good understanding of whats going on as they really are just spins of various flavors.

One of my favorite things is an avalanche .. it seems so easy but its non trivial to get the snap to start and stop where you want and it looks oh so pretty with the smoke on, it feels like a really good golf swing and putting the ball within a few feet of the cup ;)


Cheers,

Peter
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Aerobatics & Airshows”