To full flaps or not to full flaps!

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Hedley
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Hedley »

the Wright Flyer
You haven't even gotten started on what they did wrong:

They did not have a Certificate of Registration.
They did not have a Certificate of Airworthiness.
They did not have a current annual.
They did not have any airframe and engine logbooks.
They did not have a compass.
They did not have a pilot's certificate of any kind.
They did not have a pilot medical.
They did not hold a valid A&P/IA certificate.

Really, given all of the above, the Wright Brothers should have been thrown in jail for quite a number of years for daring to commit the Sin of Aviation (tm). Landing flapless is pretty small beer, compared to all their many other offenses.
Spruce Goose?
Oh goodie. Can I talk about what a nutjob Hughes now? Again, given what else he did (and was accused of), flaps vs no flaps would be a fart in a windstorm for Howard Hughes.
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ScurvyDog
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by ScurvyDog »

Hehe I knew that would get things going hedley! Love poking the bear.
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Hedley
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Hedley »

I should do colour commentary, like that fat guy on football.
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by iflyforpie »

fish4life wrote:The same 150 I was talking about earlier that will almost have you strike the tail if you don't use flaps was one of the early ones equipped with 40 flap... That setting is for the most part too much flap for day to day flying, if I remember correctly it was about 2100rpm to maintain 500fpm decent and 65-70kts
The problem with the 150 is, owes its design to the 140 (basic fuselage and wings) and the 170 (slotted Fowler flaps), both of which were taildraggers mainly intended to go on and off dirt or grass strips, plummeting at a steep angle over the rows of trees that would invariably be at the edge of the field.

When jets finally came around, light aircraft became more tailored to pilots who would eventually fly them. The Cherokee, with its low-wing, laminar-flow airfoil, all-moving stabilator, (relatively) high wing loading, and ornamental flaps was made perfectly for the pilot following the PAPIs in for landing. Just drive it on like you would an Ercoupe (which was incidentally designed by the same guy: Fred Weick).

In fact, if you come in too steep and a bit slow in a Cherokee, you can find yourself uncomfortably on the back of the power curve and wind up hitting obstacles or slamming down on the runway early owing to the large amount of induced drag and ineffective stabilator.

Cessnas were not designed to hold a three-degree slope with full flaps with a low power setting. Even the 206 I fly will require cruise power settings with full flap to follow the PAPIs in on the very odd occasion I am doing a straight-in to a runway that has them (but then I will usually but 20 on and 40 on short final). Four degrees (500ft at one mile) suits most single engine Cessnas much better for full flap approaches.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
PanEuropean
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by PanEuropean »

skybaron wrote:I quoted the AFM to bring to your attention that a full flap landing with the DHC2 is not something normally carried out while approaching to land. Should one have experience, and be comfortable with a full flap landing? Of course! Without question.

Would I elect to use full flap on the -2 for every landing? Hell no. Too aggressive of a pitch down attitude, descent rate, and finally coupled with (most important IMHO) the time its going to take for me to raise those barn doors to takeoff setting on a balked approach / overshoot scenario. In the end, I'm guessing because of these reasons and many more, DHC decided to have a "landing flap" setting (one notch before full flapper).
I agree with Skybaron on this matter. In addition to the disadvantages that he has mentioned, there are other reasons to avoid using full flap for landing unless it is absolutely necessary. These include reduced elevator authority for pitch-up maneuvers, and an increased risk of tailplane stall in the event of any contamination being present on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer.

Full flap decreases the stall speed of the aircraft, thus if a crosswind is present, the crosswind component as a percentage of touchdown speed (stall speed) will increase. In strong crosswinds, this may result in directional control difficulty between the flare and the time all the aircraft weight is on the wheels.

Michael
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Shiny Side Up »

flaps vs no flaps would be a fart in a windstorm for Howard Hughes
Which at one time he would have probably tried to catch and keep in a jar.

"I know! we'll go in the Spruce Goose!"

"But sir! That's just a model...

*click*

"GET. IN."


:D
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Beefitarian
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Post by Beefitarian »

Howard Huges had 100% tiger blood he'd use flaps as required. That poser . is probably running about 45% and would land full flaps just because you and the book said to.
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DHCdriver
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by DHCdriver »

ScurvyDog wrote:I thought the question was about a PA31. It's really cool how the threads on Avcanada degrade to an arguement about flaps on a beaver!
O.K. enough with the Spruce Goose and back to the Ho people. :smt014
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Cat Driver
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Cat Driver »

That poser . is probably running about 45% and would land full flaps just because you and the book said to.
If it is me you are referring to I take that comment as an insult to my record as a pilot.

Maybe it was because I knew how to make decisions such as how much flap to use and when that was part of an over fifty year career that was accident free?
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Giveitago
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Giveitago »

Cat Driver wrote:
That poser . is probably running about 45% and would land full flaps just because you and the book said to.
If it is me you are referring to I take that comment as an insult to my record as a pilot.

Maybe it was because I knew how to make decisions such as how much flap to use and when that was part of an over fifty year career that was accident free?
Ummmm......I'm gonna guess he was going for the humor part with the comment and was refering to . Yeager...
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Beefitarian »

Cat Driver wrote:
That poser . is probably running about 45% and would land full flaps just because you and the book said to.
If it is me you are referring to I take that comment as an insult to my record as a pilot.

Maybe it was because I knew how to make decisions such as how much flap to use and when that was part of an over fifty year career that was accident free?
Nope, you're not famous for that phrase yet. Some other guy.

Further I would have been willing to guess you would choose flap setting depending on the plane and conditions you encountered.
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Beefitarian
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Beefitarian »

Giveitago wrote:Ummmm......I'm gonna guess he was going for the humor part with the comment and was refering to . Yeager...
I would never insult General Yeager.

I probably like him (though on a much smaller scale) in the same way Hedley likes Bob Hoover. (hope I got all the "Os" in there that time.)
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by burhead1 »

fish4life wrote:The same 150 I was talking about earlier that will almost have you strike the tail if you don't use flaps was one of the early ones equipped with 40 flap... That setting is for the most part too much flap for day to day flying, if I remember correctly it was about 2100rpm to maintain 500fpm decent and 65-70kts
I loved training in the 150, you could drag its ass in full flap, full power to the edge of the runway, pull to idle and slam on the brakes. Lucky if you used up 50' of runway. :smt040

Sorry back to the Nava
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Hedley
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Hedley »

Hedley likes Bob Hoover
I can't say I "like" or "dislike" Bob Hoover, although I've talked to him a couple times at Oshkosh and he was certainly a likeable fellow in person.

But regardless of his personality, Bob Hoover is a stick & rudder god. It was always a pleasure to watch him fly. It's wonderful to watch an accomplished, life-long master practice his craft. You know you're seeing something special.
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Tryg »

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Post by Beefitarian »

Huh, you sure bring him up in conversation a lot. It seemed to me you liked him. You know as in admired his abilities and or achievements. That's the way I like the guy I was posting about. I never met him either. Now that I made a mistake and got married I'll probably never even make it to one of those lectures he does. Presuming he still does those.

I read he used to hang out with . (not the one here or the tigerblood guy) I bet they were both pretty good with an airplane.
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Hedley
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Hedley »

you sure bring him up in conversation a lot
Yes, but not because of me, rather because of him.

For example, someone will make a blanket statement such as:

1) "You should never feather an engine of a twin", or
2) "You can't do aerobatics in a transport category airplane", or
3) "You can't deadstick a jet"

The list goes on, and on, of stuff that the white shirt and gold bars types will say are impossible. And perhaps it is, for them. Problem is, Bob did them every day.

And the contrast between the straight-and-level "white shirt" crowd and Bob is glaring, for those of us that remember him.
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Post by Beefitarian »

So you think it's a good idea to rag on them and tell them it is "possible" so some of them get hurt?
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Post by Beefitarian »

Pardon me maybe I should have said, "more" of them get hurt.
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Hedley
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Re: To full flaps or not to full flaps!

Post by Hedley »

Well, future winners of these awards have to come from somewhere, I guess:

www.darwinawards.com
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