"Dipping" into the USA

[tkdowell]

One of my commercial students is planning a flight from Ft. Frances (Ontario) to Brandon (Manitoba). It crosses about 15NM of US airspace. He does not intend to land in the United States, just simply pass through it. I have not had the opportunity to look at it this particular example myself. I know it would be easier to "skim" the border on the Canada side. But in practice - is crossing the border without landing in the US something that can 'normally' be done?

[modi13]

It's done on flights to YYJ all the time. The direct routes from ZBB, YPK, YXX, YNJ and YCW cross US airspace at least part of the way, and lots of IFR training flights practice holds over the Whatcom VOR south of the border. As long as you're on a flight plan, and carry your passport in case of an unexpected landing, there won't be any problems.

[Hedley]

File a flight plan, and get a squawk code from USA ATC before you enter US airspace.

That's it for overflights.

[Tim]

File a flight plan, and get a squawk code from USA ATC before you enter US airspace.

That's it for overflights.

the squawk doesnt even need to come from the US.

when i trained in YAM i used to practice over northern Michigan all the time, never talked to anyone but YAM tower and our training area freqs.

[BEFAN5]

As long as you are talking to someone.

I ventured into the states a few times, and in my later flights, I just started filing airways and then requested flight following from YWG Centre. That way, there is always a controller overlooking you, and will tell you when, and on what freq to switch for to for MSP centre etc.

Side note - Make sure students know that due to radio congestion in the states, there are some areas where to contact radio to get your squawk, you transmit on one freq, and receive on the other. This caught me the first time I went solo. Good thing I stared trying to contact them early, and gave me some time to figure out the system.

[Hedley]

you transmit on one freq, and receive on the other

This is really, really old. Generally you tx on some USA FSS freq like 122.1 and you rx on the VOR ident freq. This dates back to the 1950's and 1960's. I'm amazed there are still any out there, but I don't talk to FSS much. If I legally have to file a flight plan - either VFR or IFR - I do so on the ground over the phone, and then I'm talking to center on the comm. If I don't have to file a flight plan, I turn the comm radio down and don't talk to anyone. I far prefer listening to the music on my phone.

[polar one]

After 250 responses here you should get the idea that it is not a big deal.. But call the local ATC folks and ask them. That way you are sure you are getting it from the horses mouth and not the other end.

As an aside, a couple years ago I was doing an overflight on a ferry flight from Fredriction to Quebec city and just after departing my mode c went down..US told Canadian ATC fine keep coming. About 15 minutes into US airspace I lost my whole transponder...Had absolutely no problems with the US folks..they just asked for ETD of their airspace. But the good folks at PET airport told me to bugger off without a transponder.

[iflyforpie]

It depends.

In the Lower Mainland, it is different because Victoria Terminal actually controls the airspace over Whatcom County (Blaine, Sumas, Birch Bay, and nearly south to Bellingham).

Back in the day, I used to dip down all the time. Going across Southern BC, it is way lower to go into Washington than to go over the Anarchist Pass east of Osooyoos--even though it takes you through an MOA. I would only do this because of weather and to get home, I wouldn't plan on doing it.

But any more, you'd better have a flight plan and code. I was doing fire patrol paralleling the border by Creston and we got a call from base giving us a transponder code because of our proximity to US airspace. Somehow, the US found out which plane we were (no air radio transmissions were made since leaving base, only Forestry FM) and tracked down the company. We were a solid mile inside Canada!

[Lurch]

I know it would be easier to "skim" the border on the Canada side.

I would consider this the worst idea, Homeland security really gets their nickers in a knot when you do this. A 15 minute conversation with the RCMP convinced me of this last year.

P.S what made it really dumb was I was IFR and ATC made my fly along the border.

Lurch

[trey kule]

P.S what made it really dumb was I was IFR and ATC made my fly along the border.

I know, I was really pissed at them for only doing the job 1/2 right. They were supposed to make you fly along the border AND report you as a known terrorist to the US folks.

[Lurch]

P.S what made it really dumb was I was IFR and ATC made my fly along the border.

I know, I was really pissed at them for only doing the job 1/2 right. They were supposed to make you fly along the border AND report you as a known terrorist to the US folks.

They haven't caught me yet, the jets they keep sending to shoot me down are too fast.

Lurch

[BEFAN5]

you transmit on one freq, and receive on the other

This is really, really old. Generally you tx on some USA FSS freq like 122.1 and you rx on the VOR ident freq. This dates back to the 1950's and 1960's. I'm amazed there are still any out there, but I don't talk to FSS much. If I legally have to file a flight plan - either VFR or IFR - I do so on the ground over the phone, and then I'm talking to center on the comm. If I don't have to file a flight plan, I turn the comm radio down and don't talk to anyone. I far prefer listening to the music on my phone.

The radio contact procedure south of Winnipeg is still done like that through the HML vor.

[Fling Wing]

It depends.

In the Lower Mainland, it is different because Victoria Terminal actually controls the airspace over Whatcom County (Blaine, Sumas, Birch Bay, and nearly south to Bellingham).

Back in the day, I used to dip down all the time. Going across Southern BC, it is way lower to go into Washington than to go over the Anarchist Pass east of Osooyoos--even though it takes you through an MOA. I would only do this because of weather and to get home, I wouldn't plan on doing it.

But any more, you'd better have a flight plan and code. I was doing fire patrol paralleling the border by Creston and we got a call from base giving us a transponder code because of our proximity to US airspace. Somehow, the US found out which plane we were (no air radio transmissions were made since leaving base, only Forestry FM) and tracked down the company. We were a solid mile inside Canada!

Do you know if one can still do this after 9/11? I live in the area and have always wanted to go sight seeing down there without the hassle of landing oroville. How far can you fly south, or is there a limit? I know that with the drug activity this could be possibly frowned upon.

[iflyforpie]

Do you know if one can still do this after 9/11? I live in the area and have always wanted to go sight seeing down there without the hassle of landing oroville. How far can you fly south, or is there a limit? I know that with the drug activity this could be possibly frowned upon.

I did it after 9/11, but before things got completely out of hand.

And remember, when I did it (well, other than darting over for only a few seconds, like when doing the circuit in Midway BC) was because of weather. I did not go down there to do sightseeing and came back into Canada as soon as I could.

Not worth the risk any more IMHO.

[photofly]

If you fly the Niagara Falls VTPC route (or whatever it's called) you fly way over US territory without talking to anyone (just self announcing on the advisory frequency, only). No flightplan, no squawk, no transponder required.

[Wacko]

File a flight plan, and get a squawk code from USA ATC before you enter US airspace.

That's it for overflights.

Ok, can anyone actually find a reference where this is stated? I'm talking VFR only. There are many parts of the boarder where you neither have radio or radar contact for a significant amount of time. I can't find an official reference where getting a US squawk BEFORE entering their airspace is required...

TIA

[photofly]

Doesn't make sense to me. Big chunks of US airspace are overseen by Canadian ATC, and vice versa. No need for special measures to cross the border, in my experience.

[straightpilot]

Why bother reading pesky NOTAMs before flight? AvCanada pilots sure don't need to bother with them.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/9-2788.html

Valid Time
15 August 2009 until further notice

Special Notice
Aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff gross weight of 100,309 pounds (45,500 KGS) or less that operate to or from or within or transit territorial airspace of the United States (U.S.). This notice, and another separate special notice for aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff gross weight of more than 100,309 pounds (45,500 KGS) replaces previously issued FDC special notice notams 8/3576 and 9/9922. In addition to the requirements prescribed in 14 CFR Part 99, security control of Air Traffic , the following special security requirements are in effect pursuant to 14 CFR section 99.7 special security instructions.

Part I.
Authorized operations aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 100,309 pounds (45,500 KGS) or less, are not authorized to operate to or from or within or transit territorial airspace of the U.S. unless they meet the conditions of one of the following paragraphs. In addition aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff gross weight of 100,309 pounds (45,500 KGS) or less, are not authorized to enter United States (U.S.) territorial airspace enroute to planned alternates unless the operator meets the requirements listed in this notice prior to listing U.S. airports as alternate landing airports in the aircraft flight plan.

B. Aircraft registered in United States, Mexico, Canada, Bahamas, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, and British Virgin Islands are authorized to operate within the territorial airspace of the U.S. In Accordance with all applicable regulations. Aircraft registered in these countries are also authorized to operate VFR in airport traffic pattern areas of United States airports near the United States border. However, if the aircraft departs the airport VFR pattern at any time and transits Canadian, Mexican, or International airspace enroute to another airport, the requirements of paragraphs F. and G. apply.

G. Aircraft registered in Mexico, Canada, Bahamas, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, and British Virgin Islands are authorized to operate to or from or transit any of these countries and the territorial airspace of the U.S., if in compliance with:
File and are on an active direct flight plan (DVFR included) that enters U.S. territorial airspace directly from any of the countries listed in this paragraph. Flights that include any stop in a non-listed country must comply with all requirements for other foreign registered aircraft in accordance with paragraph I of this notice.

Are equipped with an operations mode C or S transponder and continuously squawk an ATC issued transponder code

Maintain two-way communications with ATC

Comply with all U.S. customs and border protection requirements

[200hr Wonder]

I use to fly out of Ft. Francis all the time. The airspace above it is US controlled, so I would just call em up, get a sqwak, request flight following and be on your way. Should be able to get em on the ground.

[photofly]

Aircraft registered in Mexico, Canada, ... are authorized to operate to or from or transit any of these countries and the territorial airspace of the U.S., if in compliance with:
File and are on an active direct flight plan (DVFR included) that enters U.S. territorial airspace directly from any of the countries listed in this paragraph. ...
Are equipped with an operations mode C or S transponder and continuously squawk an ATC issued transponder code

Maintain two-way communications with ATC

Well, since I file a flight plan for every domestic flight (something which, absent a flight itinerary, I am required to do by law) and since I routinely request flight following and get a squawk for domestic flights, none of the above counts as special measures.

There's nothing to say who the squawk has to be issued by, and one received from Canadian ATC is fine if they happen to be controlling the airspace you're in.

No requirement to contact US authorities.

[Wacko]

There's nothing to say who the squawk has to be issued by, and one received from Canadian ATC is fine if they happen to be controlling the airspace you're in.

No requirement to contact US authorities.

Yeah... that's exactly my point... most people say you need to get a US squawk code but I can't find a reference that says that.... on that note however, does Canada terminate services and asks you to squawk VFR? Maybe that's where the trick lies... I generally fly IFR and the one time I flew VFR was FROM the US to Canada... We kept the code till we landed in Canada.

[photofly]

Good lord. Why are we making such heavy weather of this? Just file a flight plan, talk to atc, get flight following, fly across the border. It's a simple as that. Stop worrying about it!

[Beefitarian]

Well this thread started 7 months ago. I'm going to guess he either figured it out, didn't go or is in Guantanamo Bay by now.

[Wacko]

Good lord. Why are we making such heavy weather of this? Just file a flight plan, talk to atc, get flight following, fly across the border. It's a simple as that. Stop worrying about it!

Because some instructors I've talked to make it sound that if you don't get a US transponder code BEFORE entering US airspace you're going to get cadored... I have never had an issue but I also don't want to call an instructor an idiot until I am sure I'm right ... problem is I can't find the answer to support either side.

[photofly]

Because some instructors I've talked to make it sound that if you don't get a US transponder code BEFORE entering US airspace you're going to get cadored... I have never had an issue but I also don't want to call an instructor an idiot until I am sure I'm right ... problem is I can't find the answer to support either side.

Even though he's wrong, you don't need to call him an idiot.

There comes a time in every young pilot's life when they realize that not everything their instructor tells them is right. Pretty soon after you realize that you also realize that it's not your job to correct them, and you won't get any thanks for trying.