New TA reached!

[pilotbzh]

You can scratch No 7, the shutdown was a technical failure..... it's up and running but not fully fonctional they working with data from 2 days ago...

[yycflyguy]

What a relief. Now there are only 9 reasons to vote NO

You must admit. The shutdown of the forum coupled with the quick newsletter denial by the MEC is somewhat suspicious... or is it the paranoia in me coming out?

[ROCK]

Hardly a

quick newsletter denial by the MEC

, forum shutdown for over 18 hrs, and over 24 hrs after they they voted or not voted to bring the TA to the membership.

[yycflyguy]

Hardly a

quick newsletter denial by the MEC

, forum shutdown for over 18 hrs, and over 24 hrs after they they voted or not voted to bring the TA to the membership.

You don't think a denial within a DAY is quick for this union? The fact they even addressed the rumour speaks volumes.

[Stu Pidasso]

I've had a cusory look at the deal, it is nothing short of brutal.

I'm not sure what the NC was thinking, but it is not even on the same planet as the line guys I fly with.

Since this is a (very) public forum, I'll save the details.

[turbo-beaver]

My post from another thread.

If the rumour are true it is an easy vote.

LCC at reduced wages on the same aircraft:NO
DC pension for new hires:NO
No pension indexing:NO
No settlement of outstanding profit sharing and Scope grievances:NO
Aircraft grouping and limited career advancements:NO
Wage increase not equivalent to pre-CCAA plus inflation adjustment:NO
Influencing the shut down of a private forum:NO
Allowing SkyRegional to start in violation of current contract:NO
Using non ACPA pilots at SkyRegional:NO
Executive compensation tied to EBITDAR:NO

Feel free to add to my list of reasons but there are 10 solid reasons to vote this POS down.

Don't forget, executive compensations and bonuses will be announced later this month. Unbelievable.


YYCFLYGUY....

funny, I was just starting to hate you...and now, Rick, I think I am starting to like you all over again, as I did the first time we met and flew together
Good post

[SII]

You must admit. The shutdown of the forum coupled with the quick newsletter denial by the MEC is somewhat suspicious... or is it the paranoia in me coming out?

Did you ask the web master?

[Les Lavoie]

From what I read here about that forum, wisdom, logic, experience and a whole slew of other attributes are not welcome there

Perhaps insulting your former colleagues is not the best way to gain admission?

If I may respecfully correct your statement above to read: Perhaps insulting your colleagues is not the best way to gain admission? I only consider as my colleagues, those people that have the internal fortitude to sign their real name to their writings and do not hide behind smoke screens. Those same real colleagues and I can agree to disagree, right up to the n degree,but in the end, they will always be welcomed to share a few and even come over to my place for some original Montreal steamies, ribs or smoked meat.

Lest we not forget that there is also a saying that goes something like this: If the shoe fits...

PS. Guess I am not the only one that thinks your given name is Rick

Leslie Lavoie

[yycflyguy]

YYCFLYGUY....

funny, I was just starting to hate you...and now, Rick, I think I am starting to like you all over again, as I did the first time we met and flew together
Good post

Sorry Ken, my name isn't Rick.... but don't let that taint your hatred

I only consider as my colleagues, those people that have the internal fortitude to sign their real name to their writings and do not hide behind smoke screens.

Really Les? Well that is unfortunate that you can't consider me a colleague then. Too bad. We have more in common than differences. To each, his own.

[duranium]

yycflyguy

Les has a valid point, based on honesty, that I presume all pilots should possess and so, it seems that you have painted yourself into a corner as, if you ''come out of the closet '' sort of speak, some of your posts will very well paint you in a negative light, not very good in some of your coworkers eyes.

Duranium

[yycflyguy]

duranium:

Why? Because I openly disagree with the flypast60 agenda? Honesty on an anonymous forum that is created for debate can only be achieved through revealing identity of the poster? I won't be considered a "colleague" unless I post under my real name when there are those who threaten litigation anytime there is a differing opinion? No thanks.

I think Turbo was kidding but saying he "hates" another colleague?? Yet, I am the one with

posts will very well paint you in a negative light

Wow. Pot called. Said something about your colour.

Maybe you guys think I am Rick Allen!!! Big Brother is watching.

Glad we can agree on the merits of the current TA being put forward. Maybe we can share a group hug and leave other politics at the door so we can work together on a fair contract?

[c170b53]

Boys (and maybe a girl or two) there's no reason to beat each other up over a comfort zone that's different for each individual. In my case its easy to figure out who I am, especially if you can zoom in on my Ident. Then again just as easy if you ask at the right place. I've had differences with posters as well, in some cases they won't even admit what they do and for whom. Their comfort zone maybe applicable to their position or it may have something to do with the truth, in that we all get to choose which is the more likely reason for their fear. Regardless I think this thread like many, deserves a healthy debate.
AC employees need to understand early in their career the benefits and pitfalls of their present pension plans. The only choice in the past was the DB plan. Its inner workings were not the concern of many, in fact its success can be measured by how it has paid dividends to those that may have not saved for retirement at all. Now its obvious that these plans have come under attack and whether we like it not we must take the time to understand how they work and participate in their defense if we feel they deserve it. Times have changed, nor longer is anyone in it for a long time or for the good of the group, now its all about extracting the most in the least amount of time and leaving a waste land behind themselves. This company and those that pull the strings have their eyes fixed on the last pot of gold left and they don't own it.
Please take the time to read this if you haven't already http://mba.yale.edu/mba/curriculum/p...canadacase.pdf
I'll contend that the DC plan appeals to those that have short term plans and no desire for long term commitments.
You decide whether I'm talking about management or whether I'm talking about employees.

[onspeed]

c170b53, great post.

I'd say that a DC pension plan appeals to those that have short term plans for sure, both management and pilot. Management will play the DB plan against the DC plan in the future as competing interests except in the future (If you go for the DC plan) there will be pilots that will be voting against the DB plan in order to gain an extra few points on their DC company contribution.

To this point Air Canada has been a career airline, however if a DC pension plan comes into place for new hires they probably will shop around their type ratings to work at higher paying jobs as there will be no DB plan keeping them at AC.

[CanadianEh]

Why can't airlines learn from their mistakes? Legacy carriers with the cost structures they have CANNOT play the LCC game. It has been done time and time again and has failed time and time again. Zip, Tango, wtf is next?

IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK

[Rockie]

Why can't airlines learn from their mistakes? Legacy carriers with the cost structures they have CANNOT play the LCC game. It has been done time and time again and has failed time and time again. Zip, Tango, wtf is next?

IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK

Exactly. It doesn't work because the crews are only a small fraction of the cost. Pilots and FA's could crew the plane for free and it wouldn't make any difference. The real cost is in everything else beginning at head office, and I don't see Air Canada doing anything about that. When they do they won't have to create a LCC within Air Canada, the whole airline will be a LCC.

[Understated]

Had a good read of the entire tentative agreement that is posted on the ACPA Negotiatons web site. No doubt about it, this is the most significant contractual change since the introduction of formula pay in the 1960s. Excellent re-write and reorganization of topics. Addition of a whole new Article on Pension, but the article does not address the age 60 issue and still assumes that everyone is going to be terminated at age 60. That was a huge missed opportunity.

Don't know how the new pay groupings will go over with the pilots on the wide bodies, especially the B777 and A330 Captains. Big pay reduction for them, combined with a pay increase for the B767 Captains. Didn't see an effective date for the change, or any provision re grandfathering existing pilots in those positions, although it may be there, or there may be some sort of side agreement about the coming into force of the pay changes?

The proposed agreement still maintains no GDIP at all for anyone over age 60, as well as training restrictions for those in the last 18 months and last 19 to 30 months prior to the "normal age of retirement." All of these limitations are currently being challenged at the CHRT, and will likely also be the subject of a grievance once the CIRB issues its decision on the two DFR complaints.

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

Had a good read of the entire tentative agreement that is posted on the ACPA Negotiatons web site.

Man, is it ever quiet here. Is that because everyone is intently reading the 189 page document, or is it because they are all on the ACP Pvt Forum, beating up the MEC and the Negotiating Team? Sure is a dog fight over there. It's going to make for some interesting exchanges at the Road Shows.

[duranium]

From the information feed to me, the underlying feeling from the exchanges is that the junior part of the barganing unit is trying, who is now in the majority, numbers wise, by any way possible, to pay back those that have been on the premises for more than a few years by taking away part of their hard earned advantages. It seems that what the AC MEC is trying to accomplish by presenting this contract to the folks, is buying the favours of the junior part so as to be able, down the road, to ram down one's ei:(senior)throat some very unpalatable changes in the contract. As someone once wrote here, this is a prime example of shooting one's self in both feet, or as otherwise expressed, the me, myself and I generation in it's prime.

[Jaques Strappe]

From the information feed to me, the underlying feeling from the exchanges is that the junior part of the barganing unit is trying, who is now in the majority, numbers wise, by any way possible, to pay back those that have been on the premises for more than a few years by taking away part of their hard earned advantages. It seems that what the AC MEC is trying to accomplish by presenting this contract to the folks, is buying the favours of the junior part so as to be able, down the road, to ram down one's ei:(senior)throat some very unpalatable changes in the contract. As someone once wrote here, this is a prime example of shooting one's self in both feet, or as otherwise expressed, the me, myself and I generation in it's prime.

I may not understand your post entirely but I think I disagree. In my opinion,it is about time the wealth be shared from the top to the bottom. In my 15 years at the company, we have always protected the top while sacrificing the bottom. Finally, EMB and Airbus get an uplift while the small elite group of 777 pilots don't. ( other than 12% uplift over the next four years and a handy grandfather clause ) As a 777 F/O , I am more than happy to see this happen. Why a 777 RP ever made more than an EMB Capt is beyond me. Finally, this TA addresses that issue and gives the narrow body Captains the uplift they deserve. The me myself and I generation, as you put it, are the ones at the top who have enjoyed a 30 plus year career in an era of aviation history that will never be repeated, ie: no lay offs, high pay and fantastic working benefits. Today's generation will never see what these guys had.

[LeadingEdge]

The (up to 118 hours) hourly gains will result in a big down bid, and layoffs...

[morefun]

Jaques your Strappe is on too tight.....! it took me over 22 years just to get to a junior Captaincy so your idea of 30 years of high living and seeing the best aviation has to offer is bullshit, with 15 years seniority I was lucky to hold a junior job on a narrow body...don't cry me a river on just how bad it is at the bottom.....

[teacher]

Jaques your Strappe is on too tight.....! it took me over 22 years just to get to a junior Captaincy so your idea of 30 years of high living and seeing the best aviation has to offer is bullshit, with 15 years seniority I was lucky to hold a junior job on a narrow body...don't cry me a river on just how bad it is at the bottom.....

All the more reason why things should change for the junior folks. I'm a firm believer that just because you had it hard doesn't mean those coming up after you should too.

I don't work for AC but this applies to where ever you work.

[Deerinheadlights]

You should try voting with people that are in a different scope than you and out number you on you collective agreement.

"Appeal to the masses and it passes"

Equallity to all! Majority rules.Learn to live with it.We did.

signed
IAM sucker.

[Understated]

In the 1970's, Captain candidates that failed their upgrade were offered jobs as permanent "second officers" as an alternative to being fired. Most of them then sat in the back seat of the 747, never touched a control larger than a fuel cross-feed, were paid more than DC-9 Captains, and gradually completed their transition from "out of the loop" to totally incompetent. One of them even got arrested coming through customs after the dog chased him and found a number of joints in his hat! True story.

For the life of me, as a junior pilot, I could never understand why non-pilots should be paid more than Captains doing JFK or LGA turns. But they were. Formula pay. "Don't argue. You will be grateful, some day." I was told.

Fast forward 30 years. Same formula pay system, different pilots in the musical chairs. Will things change this time? Not according to the babble I am reading on the other Forum!

[Doug Moore]

The me myself and I generation, as you put it, are the ones at the top who have enjoyed a 30 plus year career in an era of aviation history that will never be repeated, ie: no lay offs, high pay and fantastic working benefits. Today's generation will never see what these guys had.

Hi Jaques,

Sorry, but you're going to have to go back a little more than 30 years to find this fantasy world: i.e.,"no lay offs, high pay and fantastic working benefits." I was hired in '79 and suffered 2 Years, 9 months lay-off. I retired in 2008 after 29 years and could only hold a left seat job after 20 years and could only hold a bottom 320 left seat in YVR in my last 18months - no high paying career for me. As for fantastic working benefits, well let's see ... a concessionary contract with CP Air in '84 that included a 10% pay cut, 2 concessionary contacts in the 1990's with CDN including a 15% pay cut and a trip thru CCAA. Fantastic woking benefits? Overall, I'd say we lost a lot more than we gained.

I agree with you that the pay at the bottom is atrocious and it has always been thus; now who is going to change that? I agree that an EMB Capt should make more than a 777RP. There are plenty of inequities that can be changed. Perhaps your group can make it happen where everybody before you failed.

Have there been some good times in the past 30 years? Yes, there have, as I suspect there has been for you too; but there have been far more bad years than good years. So from my perspective, maybe "today's generation" should spend a little less time belly-aching about how hard-done-by they are and spend a little more time getting involved and fixing what they see as deficiencies. It would appear that those who have gone before you have failed your expectations. I'll be watching with interest to see how today's generation handles its problems and more specifically, if the baby gets tossed out with the bathwater.

Cheers,