F-35 looking more like white elephant

[cdnpilot77]

And the Liberals, NDP, and Bloc are more transparent? Seriously, people have very short memories! There is a reason the PC's went from 3 seats in the 90's to nearly holding a majority government, with a big thanks to the Liberals and their shady operations. I don't agree with the non-competitive bid, but the Harper Government has done some great things to appease all the other parties and have our economy come through the economic recession quicker and stronger than most other countries in the world.

[alctel]

Sorry, when were they trying to appease the other parties? Was it when they tried to remove the other parties funding? Or when they renamed the government to 'The Harper Governement' instead of 'The Government of Canada'. Or was it when they pushed through a bunch of bills that got blocked in the house by attaching them to a budget? Or was it when they refused, even under parlimentary orders, to disclose how much the corporate tax cuts and the upper-band tax cuts (for the richest 10%) and the new F35s were going to cost, leading to the first contempt vote ever? Or maybe it was when they again, refused a direct parlimentary hearing order and didn't hand over transcripts of alleged torture. Or my favorite, when they delibrately held up, obscured and generally wrecked committie hearings on a number of subjects - they even released a handbook to everyone with tips on how to stall and generally make useless investigatations! (unfortunately for them it got leaked).

I could go on and on and on - any of this stuff would BURY the government in most other countries - like I said though, it's not followed up by the media and Canadians don't give a crap anyway. I mean, ministers are forbidden to talk to the press nowadays and everyone accepts that as normal!?!

As for the economy? Canada was by far the best positioned of the G8 countries at the start of the crisis (our banks had the strongest regulations - which the Conservatives had tried to loosen but were defeated) - however massive tax cuts depleted our surplus just in time for the recession to hit, the finance minister LITERALLY said that there was no crisis just after the first of the US banks collapsed and then hurried changed his mind 2 days later, but was just woefully unprepared.

He then lied about about big our deficit actually was, got caught out and called on it (again, this would have been a MAJOR THING in any other country but noone cares). The stimulus money mainly went to conservative ridings, 2 billion went to subidise the oil comanies in alberta, and basically did shit all to stimulate industry. Even the action plan signs were made overseas, haha.

There was even a massive article in several overseas journals wondering why Canada wasn't recovering faster considering what a great position we were in. This government is really frickin terrible at actually governing - they are great at PR though, those expensive republican consultants they hired 3 years ago are really paying off for them.


And that's not even mentioning the hugely expensive prision changes, killing the census, massive climate science cuts (which affects us all directly as pilots), cuts for family planning, arts cuts etc etc since that's all more subjective on your polictical views as to whether thats a bad thing or not )

[alctel]

Anyway, off topic, sorry.

[cdnpilot77]

[Beefitarian]

I still want to see us build something. How about we make our own A-10 knock offs....

So then you have some a10's, but still no fighters.

Don't need 'em, beaufort missles. We're going to end up with some F-35 but who knows how many. We might just go broke trying to get them. If we can make F-35 knock offs let's do that.

[Beefitarian]

It looks like no one wants Canada to be able to build their own fighters including Canadians. I won't accept any "We can't." arguments, if that's the case maybe we shouldn't be working on them either. Send them back for factory service like someone that owns a car and goes back to the dealer because they don't even know there is other mechanics.

Canada seems to be a great country because we don't have to do anything for it. Free healthcare, welfare, education etc. That stuff will all be gone once we've spent all the money buying everything from somewhere else including F-35s or...

Let's build some sort of trainer/intecepters make them simple, easy to maintain and tough. If need be we can start with brand new pt-6 powered Beavers. Then we can work our way up to fighters from there.

How much is a single F-35? Take that money and build a town with a military plane factory owned and run by the CF at cost. Put it somewhere no one else want's to live at the end of some power lines to save on land costs.

Once it's grown to a large enough operation every person that wants to be able to hold a Canadian passport must work there for 1 year room and board provided or join the regular forces. Don't like that? You don't have to be a full Canadian citizen, you're welcome to hang around writing letters to the paper about how "the aircadets are bad." but won't get to call yourself one of us and travel around doing it.

After the end of the year you're free to go back home and pretend it never happened. If you wish you may stay and become an employee at a nominal wage, depending on how things go you'll have the option of becoming an apprentice to learn a trade or enter design/managment training. You will be provided room, board and tuition at the institute of your choice in exchange for a 5 year contract at CF rates of pay after your certification or degree.

[grimey]

If people honestly want Canada to develop it's own combat aircraft, they should start by getting a couple of Canadian companies to start developing a replacement for the Hawk trainers. Once one or two companies here demonstrate they're capable of that, and also develop the required expertise, then maybe move on to more advanced aircraft.

Frankly, the large investment that this would require, combined with the very good chance that any aircraft developed would have a lower level of performance than those developed in countries where this expertise already exists, and still cost more, makes me think this wouldn't happen any time soon. If I were running Bombardier, which is probably the only Canadian company that is even close to being able to develop a fighter, the only thing I'd think of making for the military are aircraft that could be adapted from a similar civilian design. Like Saab's adaptation of the 340 and 2000 to AWACS duties.

Canadian companies are quite capable of developing some of the subsystems for modern fighter aircraft, but we just don't have the expertise in this country to do it all ourselves.

The Arrow couldn't happen here again. We developed in beginning in 1953, when everyone else was on the same ground as us: just learning about the requirements for high performance jet aircraft. Everyone else now has a 50 year head start on us.

[Beefitarian]

My point and fair enough I have not been sharing, is in the case of fighter jets much of the cost of development is put into the final cost per unit. Canada should try to start doing more of that at home.

Obviously we can't build F35s right now but we will never even be able to build arrows if we don't try. Guys in YBW are hand building one out of wood right now. It's taking a long time but it might be less expensive than getting someone else to build one for them.

[fel]

Let us not forget Bob, the Carmen Camakazie.

http://www.nfb.ca/film/defender/

[frosti]

post

In this case, he is very lucky the other engine wasn't taken out as well. The FCS reset will take care of all those BLINS.

Yes, the JSF would be an excellent capability. Too bad inept Canadians who always think with their wallets and not their heads are so against it. I'm just glad the current CDS is such a great supporter of the project, I just hope his predicessor will follow the same suite.

[2R]

The F-35 will be Canada's Maginot line.
But hey if provides some jobs for the Liberal supporters in Quebec ,why not build it ?at least they will have to get out of bed to collect their government cheese

[Beefitarian]

Let us not forget Bob, the Carmen Camakazie.

http://www.nfb.ca/film/defender/

That didn't look right but kind of what I'm after.

Not sure how he went from restoring that zero to building the first defender. It looked like a scaled down low wing 337 with a missing front engine and I was kind of surprised the tail didn't come off, it seemed pretty shakey.

Edit: http://www.winnipegfilmgroup.com/cinema ... e_nfb.aspx

[shitdisturber]

post

In this case, he is very lucky the other engine wasn't taken out as well. The FCS reset will take care of all those BLINS.

Yes, the JSF would be an excellent capability. Too bad inept Canadians who always think with their wallets and not their heads are so against it. I'm just glad the current CDS is such a great supporter of the project, I just hope his predicessor will follow the same suite.

To the best of my knowledge his predecessor was all for the project; but I suspect you're much more interested in what his successor thinks.

[fingersmac]

Interesting documentary from CPAC and Esprit De Corps.

[55+]

There's more.................

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2 ... costs.html

[sigmet77]

If this thing goes to $150M like it appears to be I hope the conservatives consider this as a replacement. Maybe there is not the economic stimulus like the F-35 deal but she's a a beaut and can hold more weapons than we normally fire in a year....normally.

[Topspin]

Question for military fliers past and present;

http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/world/Re ... story.html

In addition, because the F-35 would not be able to safely land on runways in Canada's North as those are too short for the fighter, the Defence Department is also looking at having manufacturer Lockheed Martin install a "drag" chute on the plane.

Can one infer any validity to that claim based on testing so far?

[Dyda]

I'd encourage anybody interested in this topic to read THE AGE OF AIRPOWER by Martin Van Crebeld. Not only is it an interesting survey of the development of air power from its earliest days, but it provides a fascinating insight into the nature and effectiveness of air power in today's high technology world. This book makes it hard to imagine that the F-35 and many other existing aircraft are anything other than a gargantuan waste of taxpayer's money for all countries involved, including the US.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

If this thing goes to $150M like it appears to be I hope the conservatives consider this as a replacement. Maybe there is not the economic stimulus like the F-35 deal but she's a a beaut and can hold more weapons than we normally fire in a year....normally.

That would never pass. We would probably go for the F15 Silent Eagle before the Typhoon. As much as I adore it, buying a European fighter would also affect relations between the US + Canada. The new Eagle is said to be the replacement for the current line (as the F22 will most likely never re-enter production). Bottom line, we are going to have to spend some money. Who knows what may come out of this F35, but realistically some Eagles would not be a decent replacement. However, I am not a military strategist .... F22 (can't be purchased) but over our heads anyway. Euro - not possible for a variety of reasons - F35 (who knows) -Rhino - said to be a waste of tax payer dollars ... an outdated machine keeping our Air Force idle in the late 20th century - The SE would be worthwhile looking into no? Forecast 100mil purchase price ... not that bad for a "stealthy" twin with wicked joint capability I would also imagine its further along than the F35 at this point, as they had something to build off of and modify. But the next year will be quite interesting for sure.

[Banger]

But you are right, the 404 doesn't normally just quit. In 2007, a fairly junior wingman on squadron got a big surprise when a whole LPT assembly departed the fix and severed a few hydraulic lines on the way out putting the FCS in DEL mode with a whole stab X'ed out on the FCS page. (I assume you flew the Hornet) He was RTB to Bagotville from Greenwood and made it all the way home on 1 engine, caught the cable and became a good lesson learned without further incident. I can't say for sure the aircraft flew again, but if not, I'm sure it was used for parts. The outcome would have been a bit different. If it has been designed by humans, it is maintained by humans and flown by humans, it will eventually fail. Sometimes for not apparent reason.

I remember seeing pictures of the hydraulic actuator for one of the stabs when I was on OJT at AETE. It was neatly sliced open; the turbine blade went through it like a hot knife through butter. That being said I'm pretty sure it was 720 which is currently residing in front of the Air Force museum in Bag-town. I can only imagine what the tic-tac-toe board looked like!!

[Expat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13641934

Saab is convinced its lightweight single-engine multirole fighter aircraft is both as capable as and much cheaper to buy and operate than larger, twin-engined jets such as the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault's Rafale and Boeing's Super Hornet - not to mention Lockheed Martin's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which has suffered from cost overruns running into billions of dollars.

And if Embraer can co produce them, why not Bombardier???

[North Shore]

^'Cos Sweden's a "Northern European welfare state in the worst sesne of the term" - they can't possibly make anything of value worth copying...

[Big Pistons Forever]

. I can only imagine what the tic-tac-toe board looked like!!

I am guessing approximately like a pin ball machine when you have won 10 free games . Seriously though a very cool head handled what could easily have resulted in a aircraft loss.

I just pity the poor shmuck who has the pilot light on his F35 engine go out on while flying an artic SOVPAT with the nearest rescue aircraft 1000 miles South.....

[Iceisnice]

Simply put, the F-35 is a 'dog'. Anyone one who has followed this 'backended' procurement dog and pony show, brought to you by LockheedMartin, knows it. The real kicker here, jamming this piece of crap down the taxpayers gullet, while giving our future aviators an inferior weapons platform. Also, this LM welfare program started prior to Harper taking office, and if, Iggy had won, Canada would still be purchasing these "Chinese aerial targets"
Almost every is getting cold feet, the US Navy being one, and a huge blow to the program's cheerleaders. Now, even its strongest proponent, the US Air Force is grumbling. In the last few years, here has been some very interesting articles in "Air Force" (Association) magazine. Thus the pressure for Canada is keep its promise.
Some excellent comments made in earier posts regarding the 'competition', there are much better products out there, even from of our NATO partners or "Security Partnership" (ie Sweden).
Funny, we can can buy all sorts of "made in China" products, just not the good ones.
Could it be "Air Superiority" is slipping away. Recently a high ranking Chinese General stated that they were no match for the US, that may be true, but when it comes to fighters, the Chinese just might have taken the middle-high ground. But, the US still owns the heavens.
We should drop this charade, and IF we need a fighter aircraft, find out what we need it for, and then go out and purchase one. Canada should drop out of this LockheedMartin welfare program.

[challydriver]

US Navy doesn't want the F-35C eh?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -navy.html

Sounds like it's now going to be the F/A-18E/F (and probably G) Super Hornet replacement.

Funny how things work?