Advice to New Commercial Students

[Jellyman]

Just wanted to drop some knowledge for anyone about to embark on the very lengthly and very expensive commercial pilot licence. If the FTU you are looking at does not provide any GPS training with thier training syllabus then move on. It has been my experience that as we move more and more forward in aviation the need for more than BASIC GPS understanding is required. Unless your goal is to become a float guy, but even then GPS's are being used more and more. Find a school with at least a garmin 430 and learn it inside out.

I even heard a little birdy somewhere say that Transport Canada is going to make GPS operation a part of the commercial flight test some day, it is already being incorporated in the IFR flight test. This is third party info so take it for what its worth, gossip. But if you can claim an understanding of GPS operations in you CV and resume, it may actually help. Even the oldest PC12's have dual Garmin430's, and I just saw a Turbo Beaver very well equiped with a Garmin 530. And yes it was on floats.

There are fewer and fewer FTU's out there and the need for GPS Training is a must. So make sure to get it. My two cents.

[DHCdriver]

Yes! I totally agree it is a must, especially in this day in age. We have come along way since the Apollo Loran I use to use. I thought this was great, punch in your destination and up came your bearing and track. What a wonderful tool. Cheers.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The problem is where FTU GPS does exist it is all about the button pushing. The important part of GPS flying, particularly using GPS when flying VFR, is how to effectively incorporate it into real world preflight planning and in flight pilot decision making.....and to do that you have to have some real world operating experience, something that is in short supply at most FTU's.

[Shiny Side Up]

And people wonder why pilots are't focusing on stick and rudder anymore....

[ScurvyDog]

The problem is where FTU GPS does exist it is all about the button pushing. The important part of GPS flying, particularly using GPS when flying VFR, is how to effectively incorporate it into real world preflight planning and in flight pilot decision making.....and to do that you have to have some real world operating experience, something that is in short supply at most FTU's.

+1. Well put.

[Jellyman]

And people wonder why pilots are't focusing on stick and rudder anymore....

I totally agree...I wasn't saying the need for full and complete flight training wasn't needed, just that more and more GPS knowledge was a factor in all aspects of flying. If you understand the systems being used today better it relieves a lot of the stress of flying the plane...especially when doing that first PPC ride. "stick and rudder," is still totally important, but relieving stress in the cocpit while flying and using every tool is equally as important. I think.

Good on ya Shiny Side for pointing that out.

Cheers

[iflyforpie]

I did 99% of my training in aircraft without GPS and I don't think I am any worse for wear.

Rather than having somebody hold your hand through GPS training, why not take some initiative and poke through the online simulators?

[Big Pistons Forever]

I did 99% of my training in aircraft without GPS and I don't think I am any worse for wear.

Rather than having somebody hold your hand through GPS training, why not take some initiative and poke through the online simulators?

How to push the GPS buttons is the easy part, when to use it and understanding what it is telling you is the hard part and this is where some instruction from a person who has actual practical A to B flying experience can be very worthwhile.

[trey kule]

Learning to use a GPS is all fine and dandy.
After you have learned how to hold heading. understand variation etc.Remember VFR to be looking outside of the cockpit.
Once you have those skills and that knowledge implanted forever in your brain, then the GPS can be introduced, Maybe just before the x-country portion of the ppl, and then only in its basic funtions...DCT to..kind of thing.
There will be lots of time to learn all the GPS funcitons etc. as your training progresses.

Most of us old guys were over even the little old basic GPS like a pitbull on a prokchop.
What I find in this new world though is new CPLs that are GPS savy but dont understand about variation...They just follow the little magenta line without reference to any type of heading independent.

dont be in a rush.. Learn the basics. Learn the basics. And dont let some instructor cum wannabe airline pilot tell you different.

[5x5]

How to push the GPS buttons is the easy part, when to use it and understanding what it is telling you is the hard part and this is where some instruction from a person who has actual practical A to B flying experience can be very worthwhile.

That's exactly the kind of thing your first job(s) are supposed to teach you. That's why an experienced pilot is the Captain. In the other thread about flight training and how too much CRM and other stuff are getting put into basic training, this is just the kind of stuff a student should not have to pay for. Schools should teach basic flight training and employers (as part of the training chain) provide line training.

[Big Pistons Forever]

How to push the GPS buttons is the easy part, when to use it and understanding what it is telling you is the hard part and this is where some instruction from a person who has actual practical A to B flying experience can be very worthwhile.

That's exactly the kind of thing your first job(s) are supposed to teach you. That's why an experienced pilot is the Captain. In the other thread about flight training and how too much CRM and other stuff are getting put into basic training, this is just the kind of stuff a student should not have to pay for. Schools should teach basic flight training and employers (as part of the training chain) provide line training.

Lot's of guy/gals get their first job in single pilot VFR gig. Line "training" for most is the CP saying "don't @#$! Up"......

[Cat Driver]

I may as well make another comment seeing as there is so much discussion over GPS.

Considering the relatively low cost of electronic gismos in today's world I am surprised that schools do not put angle of attack indicators in their airplanes.........then maybe there would be less roller coaster type flying caused by airspeed chasing.

[trey kule]

ahhhhhhhhhhh. Airspeed chasing!!!!!!!

Dont get me started.......to late, you already did.

right up there with chasing the VOR/ADF/GPS needles and track and the similar roller coaster patterns seen on approach by the full power, full idle only group.

To me this habit is formed because of poor instruction. Plain and simple.
Students have to understand attitudes and movements, power and attitude, and exaclty how an airspeed indicator lags. And they have to be allowed to practice under supervision until those habits are formed.. A bit to much rushing in the early and important stages of flying.
While the idea of a shiney new toy (AOA indicator) is neat, the first thing that would happenis instructors would be playing jet pilot and the student would be watching it instead of looking out the window and setting attitude based on the horizon.

Or.....as was originally suggested, we could not put any emphasis on things like heading, power and speed control, and teach them the intracacies of GPS...

[5x5]

How to push the GPS buttons is the easy part, when to use it and understanding what it is telling you is the hard part and this is where some instruction from a person who has actual practical A to B flying experience can be very worthwhile.

That's exactly the kind of thing your first job(s) are supposed to teach you. That's why an experienced pilot is the Captain. In the other thread about flight training and how too much CRM and other stuff are getting put into basic training, this is just the kind of stuff a student should not have to pay for. Schools should teach basic flight training and employers (as part of the training chain) provide line training.

Lot's of guy/gals get their first job in single pilot VFR gig. Line "training" for most is the CP saying "don't @#$! Up"......

True, not every first job is as a co-pilot. In keeping with the title of this thread - my advice to any pending professional pilot is - when looking for a first job (single or dual pilot) one of the considerations with any employer HAS to be the training they are going to provide. If they respond in a manner akin to what BPF has suggested, then seriously consider giving them a pass. You have to start learning how to say "No" early on.

There's a lot of talk about the failings in training provided by FTUs, but this tends to overlook the situation that training as a pilot needs to be a career long endeavour. Unfortunately many small operators really drop the ball on their part.

Schools, due to their equipment, location, regulatory restrictions, purpose, etc are not the logical place to provide operational training. By its very name, operational training needs to be provided in an operational environment, where it's coupled with actual operational experience, not some simulated role playing.

[square]

If a commercial student knows how to fly without a GPS, I don't think he's going to fail and give up once a GPS is added to his avionics package.. especially the basic type you find in light singles. It's there so pilots don't get lost, and because it is there, pilots ARE lost. They don't know where they are, just how many decimal miles they are from their destination. The useful things to learn would be RAIM, FDE, how you can verify the approach, how you can legally use an expired database, what you can do without RAIM, what to do if it turns off when IMC on approach.. just the IFR stuff really.

And the last thing you need is a 430! A 430 will draw your hold entry on the moving map and anticipate your turns with flashing "Earth To Pilot" annunciations, tell you how many seconds from now to start a rate one turn. It's easier than flying on autopilot. How does that help a student learn how to fly?

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is little to no GPS training in the CPL because to pass the flight test you have to take an hour and half to fill in some massively complicated flight planning form filled with calculations that will never be used again in real world flight planning like.

-recalculating a heading to account for compass deviation
-calculating time and fuel required for the segment between takeoff and the set heading point, or
-calculating leg fuel required to the 1/10 of a US gallon.

Then there is all the lines drawn on a map including the drift line silliness.

Nowhere in the course will there be any mention of real world flight planning like

-using block speed and fuel values
-route planning which accounts for weather changes, or
-when to go high or when it is best to stay low and optimum power settings for headwind vs tailwinds.

But, the bottom line is everybody uses the GPS as the primary means of navigating during commercial operations, and you can be taught how to get the most out of a GPS. For example "Direct To" is not always the most efficient route and the ground speed and the difference between bearing and track can provide a lot of information to the pilot who understands what he is seeing. I firmly believe there is real value in exposing CPL students to real world GPS trip planning and enroute navigation during their training

[trey kule]

I agree that exposure to GPS and using it a good thing, and as I posted, even for private pilots BUT...after they have learned how to hold a heading, and understood the basics of flying cross country. If it is introduced before that time the bad habits of continually chasing the track are hard to fix once they get ingrained.
And holding a heading and estimating time to the next waypoint or destination is something that is primary. First things first. The beauty of GPS navigation is it can make us all lazy because it is so easy and comprehensive. One of the challanges I remember with new CPLs from the older GPS is the heading shown on the GPS is the track and not the heading to fly.
Understand that and with a constant wind you can fly a heading AND keep the plane on track.Try and match the DG heading to the GPS heading and you will start to wonder.

Not all that long ago I had to do a long cross country VFR with a map, and quite frankly, it took a bit to get back all the old skills of hand flying, map reading and ded reckoning.

[fish4life]

There is little to no GPS training in the CPL because to pass the flight test you have to take an hour and half to fill in some massively complicated flight planning form filled with calculations that will never be used again in real world flight planning like.

-recalculating a heading to account for compass deviation
-calculating time and fuel required for the segment between takeoff and the set heading point, or
-calculating leg fuel required to the 1/10 of a US gallon.

Then there is all the lines drawn on a map including the drift line silliness.

Nowhere in the course will there be any mention of real world flight planning like

-using block speed and fuel values
-route planning which accounts for weather changes, or
-when to go high or when it is best to stay low and optimum power settings for headwind vs tailwinds.

best training advice I've heard

[Shiny Side Up]

But, the bottom line is everybody uses the GPS as the primary means of navigating during commercial operations, and you can be taught how to get the most out of a GPS. For example "Direct To" is not always the most efficient route and the ground speed and the difference between bearing and track can provide a lot of information to the pilot who understands what he is seeing. I firmly believe there is real value in exposing CPL students to real world GPS trip planning and enroute navigation during their training

The thing is, if you actually understand how that big complex flight plan form works, you then should understand how the GPS arrives at its displayed numbers and what those numbers mean. That flight plan form at its heart is just a trigonometry puzzle - which I might add many people come into pilot training with weak skills in the first place. I had to explain to a high school graduate pythagoreon theorem the other day. All the GPS does is some math for you, if you don't understand the math in the first place then you're blindly following what it tells you. No ammount of "GPS training" is going to help you at this point. In my expereince most GPS systems out ther have a very handy tutorial program, CD or online which take all of a few hours to master what buttons to push to get it to display the desired information. If you can't make this simple learning leap without help, then you got bigger problems.

[Big Pistons Forever]

But, the bottom line is everybody uses the GPS as the primary means of navigating during commercial operations, and you can be taught how to get the most out of a GPS. For example "Direct To" is not always the most efficient route and the ground speed and the difference between bearing and track can provide a lot of information to the pilot who understands what he is seeing. I firmly believe there is real value in exposing CPL students to real world GPS trip planning and enroute navigation during their training

The thing is, if you actually understand how that big complex flight plan form works, you then should understand how the GPS arrives at its displayed numbers and what those numbers mean.

Absolutely agree for the PPL. But the CPL course as currently set up is just more PPL training. You want to teach a CPL something that they will actually use, then get them to navigate with just a map, no lines, no complicated formula's, no following some form with 59 boxes, just recognizing the what you see on the map and finding it when you look out the window. Now there is a skill that directly compliments using a GPS for VFR navigation and seem to be often totally absent in new CPL's.

If current "system" of navigation planning as taught in the CPL course is so important why do virtually all CPL's never, ever use it after their CPL flight test ?

[Cat Driver]

What we really need is a down loadable app. for our GPS that will give an aural A and N and a steady hum during flight so we will know where we are in relation to the airway.

That way we can look out the windshield and cross check our position on our map and not have to keep staring at the GPS.

[Big Pistons Forever]

What we really need is a down loadable app. for our GPS that will give an aural A and N and a steady hum during flight so we will know where we are in relation to the airway.

That way we can look out the windshield and cross check our position on our map and not have to keep staring at the GPS.

It will only be a matter of time before there is an app for that

[Cat Driver]

It would be a simple application and would actually be useful especially for pilots flying in poor visibility VFR such as here on the west coast...........

............once the track has been selected you could remain on track aurally...


Just like we had to do when I learned to fly.

[ogc]

They had 430's where I did my flight training, I learned how to use its basic functions, and then pretty much gave up on using it other than as a back up.

Doing all the cross countries and such via map, looking out the window or actually tuning in VOR's and NDB's was much more satisfying for me than following the GPS which is not the most entertaining thing to do.

[Cat Driver]

Doing all the cross countries and such via map, looking out the window or actually tuning in VOR's and NDB's was much more satisfying for me than following the GPS which is not the most entertaining thing to do.

Efficiency trumps entertaining every time if you are serious about economy in flying.

The GPS is far more efficient than VOR's, and NDB's are way down on the efficiency list for navigating.