Pre flight and post flight briefings.

[Cat Driver]

Would it not make more sense for the pre and post flight briefimgs to to charged at the rate the instructors get paid rather than at the full rate?

The instructor is not really using any school equipment that has a cost to the school attached to it, so why not give the student a break, and still let the instructor make some money to live on?

Cat

[Highflyinpilot]

Ya thats a really good idea but I think it makes too much sense for the industry.

[No Conflict]

Would it not make more sense for the pre and post flight briefimgs to to charged at the rate the instructors get paid rather than at the full rate?

The instructor is not really using any school equipment that has a cost to the school attached to it, so why not give the student a break, and still let the instructor make some money to live on?

Cat

That, my friend, would be logical, but unfortunately, Logic does not rule this industry

[Right Seat Captain]

Would it not make more sense for the pre and post flight briefimgs to to charged at the rate the instructors get paid rather than at the full rate?

The instructor is not really using any school equipment that has a cost to the school attached to it, so why not give the student a break, and still let the instructor make some money to live on?

Cat

I would generally agree with you, from a plain instructor's point of view. But from a manager/owner's point of view, the briefing requires a certain private space according to the flight training standards. That space costs money to maintain. If it's a class 4, they require supervision, and the money to pay the class I/II instructor to fill a supervisory roll comes into play.

So I say some extra may be warranted, but more than what the instructor themselves make? seems like a lot. However now take into avcount that each instructor may be making different amounts money, should each instructor be billed in a different fashion?

[Cat Driver]

" However now take into avcount that each instructor may be making different amounts money, should each instructor be billed in a different fashion? "

Well the last time I looked there sure is a great divide between instructor's pay.

All I was suggesting was giving a slight break to the student with no pain to the instructor.

I have to go to the airport right now to finish an annual on one of my C150's that I'm trying to sell, so I will come back tonight and shitdisturb again.

Cat

[Highflyinpilot]

Hey Cat Driver,

How much you selling the 150 for, If you dont mind my asking. If you dont want to post it can you Pm me. Im looking to buy a 150 or somthng of that type and just trying to get a ballpark figure of what its gonna cost me.

Thanks

[Right Seat Captain]

" However now take into avcount that each instructor may be making different amounts money, should each instructor be billed in a different fashion? "

Well the last time I looked there sure is a great divide between instructor's pay.

All I was suggesting was giving a slight break to the student with no pain to the instructor.

I have to go to the airport right now to finish an annual on one of my C150's that I'm trying to sell, so I will come back tonight and shitdisturb again.

Cat

Actually, I agree 100% with you. I was only trying to play devils advocate. And now I can't support those arguments

[Cat Driver]

Highflyinpilot :

I have two 150's both are 1976 M's.

The A150M Aerobat is $54,000 Canadian ( It is a Texas Taildragger conversion ) Engine time is 132 hours SMOH.

The 150 M nosewheel one is $20,000 Canadian, and the engine time on that is 1640 SMOH.

Both airplanes have been maintained by an AMO to commercial standards as they were both used in flight schools.

Cat

[Highflyinpilot]

Is the M model owner maintenance. Also one more question, and before people atack me for asking this I am not very knowledgable on the maintnace side. You say there is about 1600 since MOH, How many hours approx. till next overhaul, I guess it is dependant on alot of things correct.

Im talking about the nose wheel one

[TTJJ]

. Also one more question, and before people atack me for asking this I am not very knowledgable on the maintnace side.

'tis a sad day indeed regarding the level of this site, when a newbee asks a simple/valid question and is worried about getting attacked.

[No Conflict]

. Also one more question, and before people atack me for asking this I am not very knowledgable on the maintnace side.

'tis a sad day indeed regarding the level of this site, when a newbee asks a simple/valid question and is worried about getting attacked.

I agree... but there are some that will raze on a whim.... too bad...

[Highflyinpilot]

Ya, sometimes it seems like people get shit on for asking basic questions. Its not everyone that does it but there are some. I figured Id explain that Im not knowledgable in the maintenance area before it gets blown outta proportion.

[Pugster]

I'll try and draw some heat for you here buddy (ie: jump on me if I'm wrong, but leave the guy alone for asking a valid question).

It all depends on the TBO (time before overhaul) for the engine involved. Unfortunately, I'm not too up on the 150's - but, for example, the 172's I fly have a Lycoming with a TBO of, I believe, 2000 hours. It depends on the engine but 2000 should be a pretty low estimate for a 150 (again I'm not 100% sure).

This number can be stretched out a bit as well if the engine goes to the TBO but is still in good shape - it can then be put "on condition" which lets it run a bit longer before overhaul. We have had some engines pass 3500 hours before overhaul...

Hope that helps...sorry i don't know the specifics for the engine involved, although I'm sure . can tell you exactly.

[Cat Driver]

Sure no problem.

First let me state clearly that when in doubt ask for the answer, none of us really know all that much to start with or we would be doing something else and making real coin.

So to answer your question.

The Cessna 150 uses a Continental 0-200 engine. it is rated at 100 h.p. and has a recommended overhaul time of 1800 hours.

However these engines are fairly reliable and generally run far beyond that number of hours, if there are problems usually it is exhaust valves and somethimes cylinders will develope cracks resulting the need to replace the cylinder.

I personally will run an 0-200 until there is some sign that the engine is getting worn to the point that it would be wise to overhaul it before something breaks.

There is no really set number of hours so good maintenance and proper engine handling will go a long way toward reliability.

Every owner would be well adviced to do regular leak down checks and get an oil analysis done at least at the annual inspection.

An oil analysis is very accurate as to the condition of the internal components.

So a good guess is with any luck you should be able to keep an 0-200 running for several hundred hours after the suggested overhaul time with no signifigant problems..

On the other hand it is a piece of man made machinery and the f.cker could fly apart the next time you start it.

If you have any other questions I would be pleased to answer if I know the answer, if I don't we both will ask someone else here cause that is how we learn.

Cat

[Highflyinpilot]

Thank you both very much.

[5x5]

Well Cat - there are a couple of points to consider regarding your suggestion. First, the easiest way for a student to save money on the pre-flight definitely is to come fully prepared. Read and re-read any assignments and review the exerceises you are going to do that day. Answer the questions, show you're ready and the time is reduced considerably. Also the flight itself will be more efficient as the exercises won't need a whole bunch of in-flight review before the performance. Most students I've observed could easily save 50% of the pre-flight by being prepared and save 5 - 15% of the in-flight time. In the post-flight, be prepared by becoming analytical while you fly and be ready to understand the comments from your instructor and relate them back to your in-flight performance.

Not only would this save them money, it would make them a much better pilot throughout their career because it's a good attitude to develop.

I always prefer it when people take it upon themselves to make their situation better rather than complain because other people won't do it for them.

Secondly, it's tough enough to make money in the flight taining business as it is. The facilities where the pre and post are conducted do cost money (as RSC pointed out) not just when their in use but all the times they're vacant as well. It's all part of the cost of doing business and has to be paid for somehow.

And wouldn't lowering the cost of flight training just make it that much easier for even more people to get their licenses and then have even more unemployed or under-employed pilots griping about the industry.

[just another pilot]

I never charged for pre/post brief/debrief. I thought it was a rip off and didn't make much of a difference to me overall. But then again, I always remebered getting screwed as a student.

[bob sacamano]

We got some instructors who don't charge a thing, and some instructors who charge for every breath of air that comes out of their mouth.

Do we agree that we should meet halfway?

[No Conflict]

We got some instructors who don't charge a thing, and some instructors who charge for every breath of air that comes out of their mouth.

Do we agree that we should meet halfway?

I charge for what I deem is helping the student... As someone else stated, most of my Pre-flts are done on the way to the a/c (unless, of course, the student is completely unprepared) and most of my Post-flts are done taxi-ing back or walking back from the plane.

Seeing as the student is putting his trust and life in your hands most of the time, I think the least we could do is not screw him/her over.

[Dizzy]

As an instructor, are you a professional or not?

People often use the comparrison of lawyers and doctors to pilots. If you're going to follow that line of thought when is the last time you saw your lawyer chat with you on the phone for any length of time for free? Or only charge for the time in court? Does a surgeon only charge when they're cutting?

But I'm glad to hear that you don't charge for a preflight brief that's done on the way to the airplane. That doesn't seem very professional and I doubt they learn much from it.

[No Conflict]

[quote="Dizzy"]As an instructor, are you a professional or not?

But I'm glad to hear that you don't charge for a preflight brief that's done on the way to the airplane. That doesn't seem very professional and I doubt they learn much from it.[/quote]


Question... Are you an instructor? When a student arrives, I ALWAYS ask him if he went over the material needed for today (Pretty easy to tell if he/she did or not). If he did, then we discuss it on the way out to the plane, touching apon any subjects that need claification. This being said, OBVIOUSLY if the student is not prepared or needs the classroom environment for learning, we take the extra time to go over the lesson. If it is a tough lesson, then we may take the extra time anyways, because it is always cheaper on the ground for the student than in the air.

I pride myself in being as professional as possible, just like most pilots do, and believe it or not, my student is my #1 priority, both on the ground and in the air.

[No Conflict]

That last one might have seemed a little harsh... all I'm saying is:

Hate the game, not the player...

[scm]

People often use the comparrison of lawyers and doctors to pilots. If you're going to follow that line of thought when is the last time you saw your lawyer chat with you on the phone for any length of time for free? Or only charge for the time in court? Does a surgeon only charge when they're cutting?

Is it ok to charge .3 for spending 2 minutes demonstrating with a wooden airplane how to flare? Then making the student fill out his own PTR?

The instructor charges per minute; the dentist i used charged a set price for the op. and was friendly enough to chat and introduce every tool in the room. Is that unprofessional?

But I'm glad to hear that you don't charge for a preflight brief that's done on the way to the airplane. That doesn't seem very professional and I doubt they learn much from it.

Why wouldn't they learn much from it? Is it unprofessional because he didn't charge .2?

...then there are those instructors who streeeeeetch the time as much as possible, even though the student says everything before the instructor is done writing the first word.

Before you go calling me cheap, the instructor I switched to was more expensive than any other, but was also the friendliest/most skilled/most professional.

ok i think i might have been ranting there

[Dizzy]

If I were an instructor, you'd think I'd know better than to give fault analysis by adding a flippant comment and for that No Conflict you deserve an apology

The FIG says we cover
1) What we're going to do
2) How we're going to do it
3) Safety measures
It also includes NOTAMS, WX, aircraft state and practice areas, start and finish times

Now, if you tell me you can cover all that on the way to the plane I'd have to believe you. But I've been in enough brieifings where all the instructor does is talk without the benefit of anything else. And it takes me about 30 seconds before I'm daydreaming. And when they ask if I've got everything, are people more likely to say "Nope, I was ignoring you" or "Yep, got it". Maybe it's not the right thing, but we don't always do that do we?

[No Conflict]

[quote="Dizzy"]If I were an instructor, you'd think I'd know better than to give fault analysis by adding a flippant comment and for that No Conflict you deserve an apology

The FIG says we cover
1) What we're going to do
2) How we're going to do it
3) Safety measures
It also includes NOTAMS, WX, aircraft state and practice areas, start and finish times

Now, if you tell me you can cover all that on the way to the plane I'd have to believe you. quote]

So true...but if the student (you)arrives, you've been studying for the last 2 days, it's severe clear weather, and we're going up to do something we've already covered/done, or already talked about (such as a review), do you want me to keep you on the ground for 20 minutes explaining how not to walk into the prop, and how to do this turning exercise, and how there is a low pressure system moving in from somewhere that will be here in 3 days, for example?

Obviously, if the factors warrant it, such as iffy weather and such, then we will talk about it. If the student is new, then of course they get more time to figure out what is going on and build the lesson in their minds.

Safety is always paramount, and trust me, I burn it into students heads, until they are able to handle anything.

Normally, I will teach the lesson once, in full. From there on, unless the student does not get it (which might be my fault, and I will do my best to get what I said across), it is briefs. I am not going to bore the student and waste his time/money killing a subject.

I understand what it is like to get fleeced by an instructor, and I've promised myself I would never do that to a student, and I haven't. My main goal is to make my student as safe and competent as possible, so my students get 110% from me.

As an instructor, you CAN merge different scenarios into the flight, making it interesting and keeping cost down.

Now, before I get razed by other instructors, we each have our own styles and what works for us, and as long as it is safe, then more power to ya.