LCC

[one8tee]

I suggest you go sign up at a flight school then. It's pretty hard to operate an airline without pilots. And there is not that many ATPL pilots in Canada.

Good luck with that. If I felt like working for free it'd be coaching soccer for little kids.

[Doug Moore]

How do you expect Air Canada to save money and actually run a profit? Stop buying fuel? Stop paying taxes? Stop paying aircraft leases? I have never read one single idea on this forum from the pilot group. One chest thumping post after another berating management and not one suggestion.

Welcome to the Lion's Den Suit!

Here's a couple of ideas for you: In a company of only 26,000 employees (of which perhaps half are pilots and Flight Attendants) why, below the CEO and CFO, does AC require 3 Executive Vice Presidents, 4 Senior Vice Presidents and 11 Vice Presidents? And below those people another complement of Senior Directors, Directors, Senior Managers, Managers, Team Leaders, Coordinators, and who knows how many other supervisory staff to help them run the show. What do all these people do anyway?

Want to talk about cost-cutting and consolidation? Let's take a look at how we might run the show with 1 Exec VP, 2 Snr VP's and 5 VP's. And all those other supervisory staff under them? How about they work a little harder and maybe try juggling 2 balls at once instead of one, maybe we could make do with fewer of them and do it all for a little less money too. I mean, if the pilots are going to be singled out, why shouldn't everyone else be put under the microscope?

Want to save some money? Well as a simple symbolic gesture, perhaps, in light of the hard times facing the company, the CEO could show some leadership and foergo his 5 Mil "retention" bonus. Given his annual million dollar salary + bounuses, I doubt if such a sacrifice would be onerous but it would show some of that "we're all in this together" sentiment that tends to rally the troops. Please, don't insult me with that self-serving mantra about "if you want to get good people you have to pay for them". That goes only so far with me in this business, particularly because I have yet to read about some desk jockey crashing his mahoganey bomber and scaring away all the customers.

Those are just a couple of ideas, Suit, whatdaya say?

Cheers,

Doug

[TheSuit]

Want to talk about cost-cutting and consolidation? Let's take a look at how we might run the show with 1 Exec VP, 2 Snr VP's and 5 VP's. And all those other supervisory staff under them? How about they work a little harder and maybe try juggling 2 balls at once instead of one, maybe we could make do with fewer of them and do it all for a little less money too. I mean, if the pilots are going to be singled out, why shouldn't everyone else be put under the microscope?

Agreed, too top heavy. You could save a few million bucks right there.
As far as middle managers, supervisors, etc; sorry but you need those people. Some of them could likely do their job better or be axed, but fire them all? Nope.

Want to save some money? Well as a simple symbolic gesture, perhaps, in light of the hard times facing the company, the CEO could show some leadership and foergo his 5 Mil "retention" bonus.

Very altruistic indeed, but noone is going to cut their own salary. Calin is the boss, but he's still a worker and on the expense line as far as shareholders are concerned. If the shareholders think they'll get the bang-for-the-buck cutting his salary, they will.

So we're at about -$55M for the quarter and no growth opportunities because you can't profitably compete in any markets.

I have yet to read about some desk jockey crashing his mahoganey bomber and scaring away all the customers.

So if pilots are paid less than the 95th percentile income they will start crashing planes? If I took a bush pilot and paid them B777 money, would they turn into a flying ace?

Look, I understand no one wants to give up their lifestyle. Auto workers like getting paid $70,000-$80,000 per annum to bolt seats. Eventually though, economics catches up. The airline businesses is tough, eventually you'll align your salary and benefits to competition and the market or your business will shrink/collapse. You can't run from it. Law jobs are going overseas, engineering jobs are too. Such is life.

[Mig29]

Very altruistic indeed, but noone is going to cut their own salary. Calin is the boss, but he's still a worker and on the expense line as far as shareholders are concerned

He did it, but wait, he's not a hard core capitalist like these western guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFxK3GMEkA

Look, I understand no one wants to give up their lifestyle. Auto workers like getting paid $70,000-$80,000 per annum to bolt seats. Eventually though, economics catches up.

No, it's when you start exporting your own job overseas to China and Korea that these "economics" eventually catch up with you. And it's catching up with USA really fast....give them another few years and you may be outsources or extinct as well.

Somehow, even then management tries to justify their own salaries....

[TheSuit]

He did it, but wait, he's not a hard core capitalist like these western guys

Good find. But one in a million, regardless of where you are in the world. If you want Calin to be heroic because he loves Air Canada, won't happen: he's a businessman.

Law jobs are going overseas, engineering jobs are too. Such is life.

To quote myself, I actually fall into this category of professional. There is sophisticated software to do legal document review automatically and software to trade stocks automatically around the globe. On top of that, there are plenty of folks in India to do the grunt computer coding for much less than we're willing to accept here. Professionals have to adapt and compete or go extinct. What they don't do, is make their services even more unattractive by demanding more money and creating more labor headaches for management. Add value.

AC is a business and they know they can get people in the flight deck for cheaper, so they're going to do it. But for some reason, the pilots would rather have no jobs added, despite the fact the new pilots would surely be better off than where they are currently at. Guaranteed pensions, raises and jobs for life are a joke these days, nobody has those perks, so nobody feels bad for you. Sorry.

[LisaS]

//Personal attack removed by Sulako. That's a strike.

[Rockie]

. Guaranteed pensions, raises and jobs for life are a joke these days, nobody has those perks, so nobody feels bad for you. Sorry.

Nobody feels bad for Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers either, but they still get what they feel they are worth and can negotiate.

We should not feel guilty for doing the same. We are a business expense, but one that only goes as cheap as we let it. I can live without the public feeling bad for us.

[Old fella]

Silly question from an old uniformed old fool; if Air canada has to position itself as an LCC in terms of pension/benifets/future pay scales, what's it(AC) doing by buying next generation top of the line B787 Dreamliners. I thought LCCs( Canada 3000, Zoom,Harmony etc ) usually scourer the used plane lots for their B767-200 types hoping to fill'em up at $75.00 per seat. Doesn't Air Canada fly to most destinations that LCC's wanna/are going to now and offer reasonable pricing structure in doing so. Why are they looking at LCC with their eyes on B787 if it isn't to get the folks flying/maintaining them to do cheaper.

Rest assured - no matter which way it swings for Air Canada the high end"suits" will get handsome sums.

[Mig29]

The suitman,

with all due respect, you are upsetting a lot of people with your comments. I suggest you stop explaining us any more why we should keep giving in....we have plenty of arrogant pricks in our own workplace who try to force their 'solutions' on us, we don't need 'outsiders' giving us hard time....This LCC is designed for one intent in mind. To fill even more pockets of top executives, and nothing else.

[Doug Moore]

Agreed, too top heavy. You could save a few million bucks right there.
As far as middle managers, supervisors, etc; sorry but you need those people. Some of them could likely do their job better or be axed, but fire them all? Nope

Sooo, we’re “too top heavy”, but it’s not worth doing anything about it. Is that what you’re suggesting? Fire “all” the supervisors? I didn’t suggest that, and anyone who does is not credible. “Some” could “likely” do their job better? Now there’s recognition of an inefficiency that we can work on. Let’s run with that before, gasp, it might be realized that some of them could, gasp again, be “axed”. Hey, maybe we’re getting somewhere after all.

Very altruistic indeed, but noone is going to cut their own salary. Calin is the boss, but he's still a worker and on the expense line as far as shareholders are concerned.

Altruism? As in, unselfish concern for the welfare of others? Selflessness? Nope, I wouldn’t expect that from the people at the top. But when those same people, with a straight face, say that they need more for less, well then I can say right back at them with an equally straight face: “I’ll follow your example.” Oh, and by the way, I’ll continue working here without the necessity of paying me a retention bonus to stick around.

So if pilots are paid less than the 95th percentile income they will start crashing planes?

Pilots won’t “start crashing planes” for any reason, that’s juvenile; they simply want to be properly compensated for the skill set that they possess. Pilots, day in and day out, do a superior job and their “cost” allocation to any given flight (according to an ALPA analysis) is something in the order of 3%. It’s somewhere in the remaining 97% of costs that is causing this airline to lose money. It’s management’s job to find the excess and they can start by looking in their own house.

Look, I understand no one wants to give up their lifestyle. Auto workers like getting paid $70,000-$80,000 per annum to bolt seats. Eventually though, economics catches up.

I’m sure that you must be aware of this, but I’ll say it anyway: a pilot’s job flying a modern airliner is in no way comparable to bolting seats on an automobile assembly line – but there are some pilots working at AC who earn half the $70-80,000 you say the auto workers earn.

Pilots don’t have their heads in the sand. They have repeatedly stepped up in past years to help turn things around. No matter how much has been given, thing haven’t turned around. It’s time to look elsewhere and I suggest we start with the organization chart – how about we start by comparing AC with that of its nemesis, WJ?

Cheers,

[sanjet]

Air Canada head pitches pact to pilots
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... le2014479/

Mr. Rovinescu warned of “the forces of competition and the fragility of the airline industry.”
...“I have made it clear to the pilot leadership that one of my objectives is to build a true partnership with our pilots and move away from the acrimonious style that has historically existed in the airline industry,” Mr. Rovinescu said.

Dude get your head out of your arse!!! Lead by example and at least cut your retention bonus from 5 million to 2.5 million to show a little compassion.

[777longhaul]

For TheSuit

one of your recent posts:

Quote:
Are you aware that the top 5% of earners in Canada are above $89,000 annually and the top 1% are above $181,000 annually? I would love your salary, and frankly your job. I have had expensive training and crappy jobs too, I don't make half of what you make.
end quote.

TheSuit, doubt you know anything about flying for an airline. Your pov is very limited when you refer to the various issues.

As per your quote, here is a suggestion. Get up, go get a pilots licence, then a Senior Commerical Licence, then an ATPL. After that 80-100 grand is spent, go get a 4 year degree, 60 grand, aprx. then go get a flying job up North, (cant wear a suit) or go to the Military, or go to some hole in the earth, and after years of slugging it out, apply to AC. Maybe you will pass the medical, and be able to tick off all the little boxes that will allow you to go through the door. Then, after many mergers, CCAA, useless management crooks stealing all your efforts to line their massive bank accounts, then, and fing only then, will you be worthy of getting into this conversation. Let me know how it goes, oh, and dont forget, you will need to be wearing that suit, when you go for your AC interview. One more thing, yes, we all know about the pay levels in Canada.

Your extensive training has failed you, since you dont make what an AC pilot makes, by the way, do you know what a first year pilot makes? A ten year pilot, a 20 year pilot? You should have gone the flying route, since you have such extensive training, and you dont get enough for it.

[777longhaul]

For MIG29

TheSuit, is just another voice, with no experience, who thinks he/she knows what the hell they are talking about. Dont let him/her/it, get under your skin.

The bell will ring, and he/she/it will have to go back to class shorty, as recess is over.

[yycflyguy]

Are you aware that the top 5% of earners in Canada are above $89,000 annually and the top 1% are above $181,000 annually? I would love your salary, and frankly your job. I have had expensive training and crappy jobs too, I don't make half of what you make.

We are hiring.

Facts: Under the current CBA you will be paid $37,900 first year and $42,700 second year to be based in Toronto on reserve (must be available within 3 hours). Year 3 you will make $60,000... and this is the supposed "pinnacle" of aviation. You telling me you only make $20,000 per annum? Wow, sucks to be you. How do you afford those suits?

[Thirteentennorth]

//Personal attack removed by Sulako. That's a strike.

Thanks Sulako! Those self-righteous, crowing posts, are getting pretty tiresome.

[Mig29]

For MIG29

TheSuit, is just another voice, with no experience, who thinks he/she knows what the hell they are talking about. Dont let him/her/it, get under your skin.

The bell will ring, and he/she/it will have to go back to class shorty, as recess is over.

I try not too, but it always amazes me when a "incognito" shows up on AvCanada with his/her 6 amazing new posts and injects his all mighty aviation wisdom, from an office cubicle apparently

By the way Suitman, if Calin is asking you to try this last ditch do divert AC pilots from voting "yes" , I think you are wasting time.....wait, you are waiting company's time actually! Back to work my YUL HQ office colleague!

[TheSuit]

By the way Suitman, if Calin is asking you to try this last ditch do divert AC pilots from voting "yes" , I think you are wasting time.....wait, you are waiting company's time actually! Back to work my YUL HQ office colleague!

Don't work for AC and don't care what you vote. AC will continue to limp along pissing off passengers and losing buckets of money either way, I'm sure.

[Janszoon]

Don't work for AC and don't care what you vote. AC will continue to limp along pissing off passengers and losing buckets of money either way, I'm sure.

Well then what the F are you on this site for? You have no vested interest in the employees that these decisions will affect, yet you feel the need to make pointed comments towards its outcome and the people who must decide what is best for them and their families.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's a bit much to go on a site and attack others concerning topics outside your knowledge, outside your workplace and outside your profession.

[TheSuit]

It's a public forum, I've been following it for a while, and I wouldn't call a contrary point of view an attack. Adults are capable of formulating their own opinions and having an intelligent discourse. Besides, who said aviation is outside my profession?

[vortac]

i think CEO Calin will find a way to get what he wants, including this Low Cost Carier one way or another. Before of after the next trip to bankruptcy protection.

I think the MEC and Negotiations Committee figured that out early and lined up behind him rather than in front.

Weather you vote yes or no in this TA will make no difference in the end.

--
As long as there is no unified professional association representing all airline pilots under one umbrella regardless what company we work for. One that can protect status and certification, then this downward salary and working conditions spiral will continue.

PS
Don't even dream ALPA will be your answer either. They assisted Jazz, ATAC & TC in their direct entry college grad program putting 200hr pilots in regional airliners. Get a grip! It takes 2x as long to get a refrigeration apprenticeship completed. ALPA thought it was a good idea to put a 21 year old "kid" in the cockpit of an airliner because THAT will do what, raise standards and wages. Right. --ALPA rant over. Sorry.

[Doug Moore]

It's a public forum, I've been following it for a while, and I wouldn't call a contrary point of view an attack. Adults are capable of formulating their own opinions and having an intelligent discourse. Besides, who said aviation is outside my profession?

Hello again Suit!

Nothing wrong with a contrary point of view and as long as it's respectful, I enjoy the parry and thrust of an intelligent discussion. Sooo ... what is your profession? And just how large is that mahogany bomber anyway?

Cheers,

[CanadianEh]

Bottom line is that as the TA stands currently, it must be voted against. The millions that will be lost on another LCC failure could be going to employees.

[Takeoff OK]

If AC wants to start a LCC there is no reason whatsoever to introduce a separate payscale or crew list. Crew costs DO NOT make or break a venture. If you guys let this happen, the LCC will absolutely be used to whipsaw you down the road. You can count on it.

If you haven't learned from the U.S. to never, ever, EVER! give up scope, then you deserve what will come.

If they're hell-bent on launching a LCC, then tell them it could be possible under a different TA, but force them to do it with current pilots, at current or better rates. Period.

Call their bluff.

DO NOT GIVE UP SCOPE! Once you do, you give up all future bargaining power.

[cv990]

Get up, go get a pilots licence, then a Senior Commerical Licence

Thought they got rid of those years and years ago!

[Rockie]

Here's a solution to the pilot/LCC conundrum Calin Rovinescu hasn't thought of.

Instead of resisting changes to Canada's F&DT regulations Air Canada should promote reforming them as most of the rest of the world has already done. That would remove one of the major problems Air Canada pilots have with it thereby moving the possibility of acceptance one step closer. It would also ensure every operator in the country plays by the same rules on a level playing field so they wouldn't be giving up any competitive advantage.

Instead of pillaging the employees in a destructive effort to reduce costs, with a little bit of unconventional thinking Air Canada could fairly easily increase the costs of 100% of their domestic competition.

They could also get some slightly hypocritical PR mileage out of it claiming to be the only airline in Canada who puts their passenger's safety before profit.

But Air Canada will never do that because...well...they're Air Canada, and tigers don't change their stripes.