Jazz vs. WestJet comparison: 1 year later

[skyhigh]

My average has been closer to 14 days worked per month. Of course it really depends on how you bid with the high credit stuff. With flica you can tweak your sked so you can average 12-13 days if you wanted to. Just gotta put a little work into it.

Been at WJ for 4 years now and I take home $1700 average every 2 weeks with NO per diems and NO OT. I sell stock EVERY 3 months ($3800) as straight cash to supplement my monthly take home and budget accordingly ($3800/3=$1260 per month extra). So really, I budget close to $4700 per month PLUS per diems which range from $400-$600 per month for me (a lot of guys make closer to $900 but I generally fly single day trips which lowers the per diems). So if you add my low per diem, I will take home around $5200 per month. Keep in mind since we get paid every 2 weeks, there will be 3 paycheques a month on every 6 month cycle, so those are really good months ($6900).

Lastly on top of the straight cash stock sell that I do every 3 months, I also sell an RRSP equivalent (also $3800 this year) every 3 months and I roll it into other RRSP outside of Westjet. All this without mentioning Stock Options and Profit Share yet.

[flyinhigh]

Skyhigh,

Money sounds great, now how is your pension? Not criticizing but seriuosly, if you sell the stock every 3 months to supplement your income what are you going to do at retirement.

I think that is the problem everyone has including me. The take home pay really is the same as Jazz or less anyway you slice it due to the fact you need to max out the ESP for later in life.

I've been at Jazz now for just over 4 years(working on 5 year pay) and am bringing in a net of 2800 a month on average, with about 1200 perdiem, now if you do a few WDO's which for some reason everyone always mentions when they talk about there salary than I will get closer to 5K a month now.

[skyhigh]

I sell 2 sets of stock every 3 months. Each of them worth $3800 this year. So one set of $3800 goes for monthly "stuff" and the other $3800 goes to RRSP. I usually top up my rrsp to max it out which doesnt take much. Next year that number goes up and after the Captain upgrade its a pretty substantial raise. So once again my take home is $4700 per month PLUS $500 per diem PLUS $3800 every 3 months for RRSP. Also most other FOS make closer to $900 in per diems. Mine's low because I do mostly single day trips.

If you want to talk OT then thats a whole different ballgame. Its pretty lucrative with a lot of FOs making over $150000 per year.

My numbers from the post above do NOT include any OT. The numbers from the 2 companies are NOT the same especially if you compare our postions of being 5th year FOs at our respective companies. Anyways I really did not want this to turn into a contest of comparing the sizes of our D$%Ks. We are ALL fortunate to be flying for a decent living.

[Powderhound]

Thanks Bede for the original post. The thread in it's entirety is really informative, so thanks all! My decision is pretty straight forward, and this thread just affirmed it. Cheers

[jpar84]

Cheers to all who have contributed to the thread!

[Flightlevels]

For me, lifestyle here has anyone beat in a seniority system. By this I mean you can show up tomorrow and get as good a schedule as the guy who has been here since day 1. We all take the good with the bad and that leaves that bitch out of the flight deck. Next is holidays. You use points to bid...again that gives everyone a chance for Christmas or summer. If you want it bad..you throw points at it and you will likely get whatever you want.

The top FO was 170 something last year and the top capt was 350 ish.(obviously with overtime)

I would rather take the 20 percent share match and I too, diversify every 3 months. A defined benefit plan is roughly worth about 12 percent on top of a salary to bring things into perspective.

Stability, cash in the bank and good management with a direction of growth have my heart. I have a lot of friends at jazz and living under the thumb of mainline isn't fun.

My 2 cents

[canpropjock]

I'm at Jazz as well and seem to have a good professional relationship with West Jet crews, every where we go. I've never heard anyone bashing West Jet. This post was excellent, it was a very professional attitude, especially for our industry! All the best!

[KAG]

Skyhigh,

Money sounds great, now how is your pension? Not criticizing but seriuosly, if you sell the stock every 3 months to supplement your income what are you going to do at retirement.

I think that is the problem everyone has including me. The take home pay really is the same as Jazz or less anyway you slice it due to the fact you need to max out the ESP for later in life.

I've been at Jazz now for just over 4 years(working on 5 year pay) and am bringing in a net of 2800 a month on average, with about 1200 perdiem, now if you do a few WDO's which for some reason everyone always mentions when they talk about there salary than I will get closer to 5K a month now.

The pension question won't be answered until I retire. As it stands I can put any amount up to 20% (really 40 because company matches it) so about 37,500 a year for me. A senior skipper can top out around 65k a year. Even if you need to sell some every year - say half, that's still a lot of money put away for retirement. Some use half to make their mortgage payments, and live off their net evey month. Others invest in why ever they see fit. And some hold evey penny untouched in WJ stock (IMHO not wise). To be honest it's only the first few years that the net pay hurts, by years 3 onward it's all good. I can pull in around 4k net a month (with perdiums) and do 20% I'm saving over 3k a month. It's not industry leading money but it's very good. Add to that profit share cheques and stock options/RSU it's a comfortable lifestyle.

[flyinhigh]

Thanks KAG, with those numbers it makes more sense.

I have often thought about pursing the WJ way however I truely love Jazz, when I talk to friends of mine they do hype it up as they love it there. However for me the only thing I really worry about is making sure my retirement is taken care of, yet none of them can give definitive answers.

I find that I am always getting different answers when it comes to the ESP pension issue to the point that nobody really knows, they just have stock and are hoping.

Cheers.

[KAG]

I sell it evey chance I get, as do most of my peers. How they invest it is another matter. The fact is no one knows how any pension will hold up over time, nor the stock market. You can also choose to not contribute at all - I too have done that when times were lean. I like the take home pay. That said I much prefer to see my stock account increasing thousands each month.
My plan is to use the companies share (their 20% or $1500) to make my mortgage for me and live off my full pay check. The remaining 20% will be invested in dividend paying stocks and I will over time create my own pension.

[Singlebogie]

I find that I am always getting different answers when it comes to the ESP pension issue to the point that nobody really knows, they just have stock and are hoping.

Unfortunately there is a lot of that (misunderstanding) when it comes to pilots and finances. We need to really read the manuals and if necessary take a financial groundschool.

We do have one whole year's worth of contributions tied up in company stock at any one time. For me that's $64000 that can't be accessed and yes would be lost if there was a catastrophic failure of the airline. For that reason most of us sell available (vested) stock every three or four months and reinvest it in whatever we think is prudent.
In my ten years I have had only three really big years with regards to options payouts, and four or so big profit share cheques (biggest $8300 take-home for a six month period).

That said my T4 usually sits around 200K which is great, but the real benefit of being here is the working conditions themselves, as outlined admirably by the previous posts. Benefits are top notch, vacation and monthly bids are equitable, schedules are extremely flexible due to FliCA, generally the many departments work together well, and bitchiness is not tolerated by the group.

After leaving Jazz the thing that I found most refreshing was the fact and knowledge that any good thing that happens to WestJet will be a good thing for me, not for the "mainline" which may but probably will not filter some of that downstream. People at other companies like to joke about it but there is a very strong family feel at WestJet and it is great to be part of a group like that.
I met an old Flying Tiger captain who was aging extremely well and he said the secret to his health was the pilot/company relationship during his years of flying the world. He said he would show up for work and they would give him the keys for a 747 which he would take literally all over the world. He felt completely trusted and supported by his company. That's kinda what I'm talkin' about.

[twinpratts]

Good post, accurate info and also unbiased.

Fly safe.

[Xander]

Thanks for the info, all of you.

That kind of information helps people like me make choices in their careers.

When I was hired at Jazz I was based in Calgary. I took many jumpseats with WJ and we talked a lot about the company. Everyone told me they were happy there. It seems they only had good things to say.

I'm wondering if I have any chances to be called by WJ...

I'm a Montreal based FO on the Dash-8 for Jazz.

How many hours did you guys have when you got the call?

Did you know somebody there, did you have any contacts in the company? (I don't).

Any answers appreciated.

Thanks

[Bede]

I think at this point in your career, you would have enough hours. Do a search on the WJA forum for "the matrix" aka what WJA looks for. It's pretty much what you'd expect- 705 time, jet time, university, french, etc.

I believe there are 3000 qualified applicants and 1000 with internal recommends. The WJA forum has some info how many will be hired this year.

Good luck. Great place to work.

[Xander]

Thanks Bebe,

I'll look it up.

[Green Onions]

How many week of vacation a year do you max out with at WestJet?

The one thing I hear at Jazz all the time is "they work a lot harder at westjet", not sure that is true, just what I hear said a lot.

[KAG]

I think I started with 4 weeks, and max out around 6? I'll edit this later when I find out exact numbers.

The perception out there that we work harder is mainly based around our grooming the planes and relying on CARS instead of a ratified CA. We work a max of 15 or 16 days depending of 30/31-day month, and I have occasionally exceeded 14 hours due to operational reasons - you can refuse. We are given a min of 9 hours in a hotel, but that next to never happens, 10 is usual min and even that seems not common. And if ever there is fatigue issues brought up, you will NEVER be questioned. We don't do stand ups, but do a lot of red eyes. Some of our pairings are pretty insensitive to time zone changes, but that is a work in progress.

Honestly if you can “lower” yourself to pick up a few pieces of trash and cross a few seat belts, its not any harder. Just fewer rules to govern your working life around, and that does tend to scare long time union types a bit.

Truthfully I'd say we do work a bit harder, then again, we are paid better so it's all good.

[Bede]

The one thing I hear at Jazz all the time is "they work a lot harder at westjet", not sure that is true, just what I hear said a lot.

I heard that as well when I was at Jazz. I disagree. We fly the same number of days (15-16), sometimes less, but our flying is longer with rare Sophie sits. The low credit pairing have great overnights (>15 hrs).

Crossing seat belts is no big deal. We have to do security checks on US bound flights which is a big pain. Does anyone at Jazz have to do those? Ground guys perhaps?

[Scuba_Steve]

The one thing I hear at Jazz all the time is "they work a lot harder at westjet", not sure that is true, just what I hear said a lot.

I heard that as well when I was at Jazz. I disagree. We fly the same number of days (15-16), sometimes less, but our flying is longer with rare Sophie sits. The low credit pairing have great overnights (>15 hrs).

Crossing seat belts is no big deal. We have to do security checks on US bound flights which is a big pain. Does anyone at Jazz have to do those? Ground guys perhaps?

It's typically groomers who do that.

[Max_Diff]

Confused...

Could somone help explain the ESP a bit better to me. I've heard/read some pople say they get an extra 40% salary a year. The way I understand it is if you make 100K (or whatever salary) you can invest 20% yourself and the company will match that 20%. But you can't count your 20% as additonal income as it was yours in the the first place that came off your paycheck. And on the 20% the company contributed you have paid tax on it 35-45%. So assuming 100K, the 20% from the company (20K)...you will net an extra 11-12K out of that .

This is a lot better than what I get, and would love to have the same plan in place...but I am confused how a 5 yr FO can claim to make 120K without any OT or extra flights.

Am I missing something? Would love more details...

Is profir sharing seperate from this...whats an average cheque?

[Bede]

ESP works like this:
You can choose to purchase stock in any amount up to 20% of your pay. The company matches 100%. This counts as taxable income so your net pay is rather low (gross income-20%-taxes on gross income+20%). In your first year, it's a bit meager, but doable (I didn't need a line of credit to live). In your second year, you can start selling ESP. I save mine for retirement, but some guys use it as extra income. If you sell all of it to live, it's like getting a 40% bump in income tax free (because you were taxed on it the year before).

WJA does ESP a smart way and purchases stock for employees. Nortel used to issue shares, which were not purchased, but created by the company for the employees. This diluted the share pool without affecting the share price because the employees didn't sell. Once the employees lost faith and started selling, the stock collapsed even faster than normal because all the shares the market hadn't accounted for were all of a sudden available for purchase.

WRT to pay, look at the pay scales. With profit sharing, restricted share units ($3000/yr) and ESP, it works out to about 1.31x your pay scale. So assuming you're a 5th year FO at $91/hr and you fly 1000hrs/yr (no OT), you will make about $91000 + ~$28500 in profit sharing, ESP and RSU's= ~$118500.

Profit share is a separate cheque with a catered party x2/yr. Even if you can't make the party, someone from mgmt is at every major airport handing out cheques with some small refreshments.

Stock options are in place of RSU's and are worth $7000. I'm not too familiar with options, so I won't comment on how they work, but it has to do with the Black Sholes value and they vest in, I think, one year and have to be sold by the third year.

[FICU]

1000 hours a year as base! You guys really do work hard!

Good on ya.

[Bede]

My mistake, we're actually blocked at 77.5 hrs/mo, which works out to 930.

[proper]

minus the vaca and stats of course 110 hours for me.

[Max_Diff]

Thanks Bede. It makes a lot more sense to me now. Not a bad deal at all.