TA REJECTED

[babybus]

Almost 67% no!
Would have liked to see 90% No but at least it didn't pass.

[yycflyguy]

Almost 67% no!
Would have liked to see 90% No but at least it didn't pass.

98% voter turnout and a solid NO vote.

It shows that the membership is awake, engaged and tired of giving up concessions to a management team that rewards themselves with unscrupulous bonuses while weakening the sustainability of the airline. This is a great day for ACPA. This is a great day for anyone considering joining Air Canada as the defeated TA would have sold out anyone walking through the door.

Now to get a fair contract. Let the games begin.

[Crown_n_Coke]

If by "sold out" you're referring to DC vs. DB debate, you need a reality check. Perhaps a great day for those hoping to join AC but not for those already there. Why jeopardize your pension's stability for the sake of somone who isn't even at your company yet? The DC plan sounded to be very generous and miles ahead of what any potential hires are getting now. Good luck in your next round of negotiations...

[babybus]

If by "sold out" you're referring to DC vs. DB debate, you need a reality check. Perhaps a great day for those hoping to join AC but not for those already there. Why jeopardize your pension's stability for the sake of somone who isn't even at your company yet? The DC plan sounded to be very generous and miles ahead of what any potential hires are getting now. Good luck in your next round of negotiations...

It went so much further that the pension Crown and Coke: the LCC, work rules, pay etc....
It was also about not letting ourselves be divided even more....falling for that is what got us here in the first place.
AC pilots are not the problem,they are the solution and should be treated as such.


Babybus.

[Rockie]

If by "sold out" you're referring to DC vs. DB debate, you need a reality check. Perhaps a great day for those hoping to join AC but not for those already there. Why jeopardize your pension's stability for the sake of somone who isn't even at your company yet? The DC plan sounded to be very generous and miles ahead of what any potential hires are getting now. Good luck in your next round of negotiations...

The stability of our DB pension in no way depended on f**king the next generation out of theirs, and your opinion about the generosity of the DC vs DB is woefully uninformed.

[Mig29]

It went so much further that the pension Crown and Coke: the LCC, work rules, pay etc....
It was also about not letting ourselves be divided even more....falling for that is what got us here in the first place.
AC pilots are not the problem,they are the solution and should be treated as such.


Babybus.

RESPECT!!

[Takeoff OK]

If by "sold out" you're referring to DC vs. DB debate, you need a reality check. Perhaps a great day for those hoping to join AC but not for those already there. Why jeopardize your pension's stability for the sake of somone who isn't even at your company yet? The DC plan sounded to be very generous and miles ahead of what any potential hires are getting now. Good luck in your next round of negotiations...

You obviously have no real grasp of the scope concept. You think you would have secured your future by selling out those to come? If you had ratified this TA, everything you hold dear about YOUR JOB, not the newbies', would have been on the block in 5 or 10 years.

Well done to all that helped shoot this down. You have dodged a massive bullet.

[nottellin]

Good job AC, enough is enough.

[oh yeah baby]

It could have been better but the essential is done. First offer is never the best one...

Wasn't easy with the actual situation and the lack of courage of some...

The best is yet to come...



Respect and congratulation!!!!

[FADEC]

It really is time to find a way to bring all the flying in house. Forget Scope; that will only divide the flying into smaller and smaller pieces. End the whipsawing; get all the flying in house.

Get some help; ACPA has demonstrated that it cannot cope; unfortunately ALPA is likely the only choice.

[Takeoff OK]

It really is time to find a way to bring all the flying in house. Forget Scope; that will only divide the flying into smaller and smaller pieces. End the whipsawing; get all the flying in house.

Get some help; ACPA has demonstrated that it cannot cope; unfortunately ALPA is likely the only choice.

Your statement seems contradictory. What do you mean "forget scope"?

Scope is everything. AC Flying done by AC pilots, with the obvious exception of what has already been given up to Jazz et al, Sky Regional notwithstanding. You'll never get that back; not without giving up much more than you will be willing to trade off. The point is to ensure that you don't give up any more. The LCC portion of the TA was extremely dangerous water. I'm glad enough of you saw it.

Forget Scope? There is nothing more powerful than scope. Period.

Perhaps joining ALPA might give some perspective. You guys are essentially an island, with no one to compare yourselves to. That being said, I'm not sure there's a whole lot more ALPA can offer you if you're just going to elect representatives that don't share the majority's interests. ACPA can serve you just fine, provided enough of you actually take an interest and get involved.

[Janszoon]

I'd say 98% turnout shows that people have taken interest and are involved.

Just need some leadership to bring the members' concerns to the table.

[TheSuit]

I'll never understand why union reps and members, with no business training or acumen, should have any involvement in business decisions. I can understand the concern for your own salary and how you operate the aircraft, but a pilots license in no way qualifies any of you to make decisions on what markets to fly to and how to set up the cost structure. You're paid to fly the aircraft.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if ACPA pilots actually owned the airline.

[MackTheKnife]

I'll never understand why union reps and members, with no business training or acumen, should have any involvement in business decisions. I can understand the concern for your own salary and how you operate the aircraft, but a pilots license in no way qualifies any of you to make decisions on what markets to fly to and how to set up the cost structure. You're paid to fly the aircraft.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if ACPA pilots actually owned the airline.

For once you make sense and I agree with what you say. Any time Pilots have been involved in ownership it has been dismal to say the least as most wouldn't have a clue how to actually manage an airline.

In actual fact Pilots effectively have no say in what management does other than the ability to say NO when management tries to cram shit down their throats during negotiations. Even then most pilots mouths are usually WIDE open. Akin to a mother bird feeding her young.

Outside that process we can only have an opinion which is usually ignored anyhow. When you have weak unions which AC has enjoyed since ACPA was conceived, management usually rules the roost.

This TA rejection is the first glimmer of hope in years for ACPA to finally be a union instead of an association.

[Pos_init]

I'll never understand why union reps and members, with no business training or acumen, should have any involvement in business decisions. I can understand the concern for your own salary and how you operate the aircraft, but a pilots license in no way qualifies any of you to make decisions on what markets to fly to and how to set up the cost structure. You're paid to fly the aircraft.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if ACPA pilots actually owned the airline.

Just because they have a pilots licence doesn't mean they don't have higher education. I'd say a large number of pilots at AC have a vast educational background including various degrees. AC gives major points to those that have a degree in the first place, so please don't assume or insinuate that these people are just dumb pilots that just push buttons with no level of intelligence. I don't work for AC, but if I did I would find your comments pretty offensive. Please show some respect.

I applaud them for trying to return this industry to one that you could be proud to work for, knowing that you are bring compensated in a respectable manner. Employee wages have nothing but down over the last decade and a half, while owners and executive wages have gone to astronomical levels.

[rudder]

I'll never understand why union reps and members, with no business training or acumen, should have any involvement in business decisions. I can understand the concern for your own salary and how you operate the aircraft, but a pilots license in no way qualifies any of you to make decisions on what markets to fly to and how to set up the cost structure. You're paid to fly the aircraft.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if ACPA pilots actually owned the airline.

Nobody wants to own (or run) the airline. That option would only flow out of another distress situation (i.e. CCAA).

Unions negotiate wages, working conditions, and benefits. The corner office comes up with the business plan within those previously agreed parameters. In this case, the corner office came with a very long wish list related to a business plan that would have effectively clobbered wages, working conditions, and benefits.

Back to the drawing board. The pilots have no proposal on the table to make any business decisions.

[TheSuit]

don't assume or insinuate that these people are just dumb pilots that just push buttons with no level of intelligence

And don't put words in my mouth. I said a pilots license does not qualify you to make these decisions; management exerience, training, or just a natural savant talent would preclude this. Even with a degree, if you aren't sitting upstairs you simply don't have enough information to make decisions or conclusions. Managers and senior managers do, and they are paid to do just that. No manager worth their salt would come down to the flight deck and start telling you how to flip the switches (although I'm sure to hear an anecdote about one who did...).

The point is that the union has control over the company but no detailed understanding of the operating environment and no accountability to do anything but keep the company just barely above water so they can keep collecting money. Union members are guaranteed to make money as long as the company is still open for business. At WestJet it's a different story. A huge part of employee compensation requires the company to perform well financially, remain stable, and grow.

[Pos_init]

Suit: What you have to remember is even though current pilots at AC may be line guys now, they could have previous management experience (be it chief pilot, or even DFO) with previous airlines they have worked for.

The execs are paid to implement business decisions after all collective agreements have been organized. Using the employee base to suffer through wage concessions and other work environment issues just to be able to take large bonuses is unethical at best and doesn't make much business sense. Without the hard working employees that have the ability to save the company money on the line, there would be no business/company in the first place. It obviously has to be a give and take, but that also has to balanced fairly, or you see things turn out negatively.

[Takeoff OK]

I'll never understand why union reps and members, with no business training or acumen, should have any involvement in business decisions. I can understand the concern for your own salary and how you operate the aircraft, but a pilots license in no way qualifies any of you to make decisions on what markets to fly to and how to set up the cost structure. You're paid to fly the aircraft.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if ACPA pilots actually owned the airline.

What are you? The voice of Capital?

If you are as educated in business as you claim, then you must also have at least a basic understanding of the history of labour vs. capital in North America. If not, let me break it down to a quickie for you:

Capital has time and again demonstrated its willingness to go to whatever means necessary to subdue labour and maximize their bottom line. The organization of labour groups into modern day unions has been a very long and arduous road. Without them, there would never have been a true middle class. And if Capital has its way, there won't be much longer.

You know it, I know it, and anyone with half a brain knows it. Your questioning of why pilots should be able to play a role in determining their future is, I'm sure, intentionally obtuse.

[TheSuit]

If you are as educated in business as you claim

I didn't.

Capital has time and again demonstrated its willingness to go to whatever means necessary to subdue labour and maximize their bottom line.

Yep. Private corporations are only in existence to make money.

Without them, there would never have been a true middle class.

Yep. If all of your competition is unionized, as it used to be, life is good. I'm not against the common worker, I am one. But I also think unions kill the golden goose if they don't match the competition. If someone wants to worker harder than you for less money, how is it your place to say they can't?

Your questioning of why pilots should be able to play a role in determining their future is, I'm sure, intentionally obtuse.

Your own future, yes. The future of AC, nope. Not your responsibility.

You may be shocked by this, but I agree that AC management, as a whole, is useless. But even with a dream team, pretty much any Bay Street type who follows AC says your costs are too high. You can argue that labor costs are only a piece of the pie, but they are one of the few controllable pieces. The aircraft lease is what it is, fuel is what it is, passenger demand is what it is. The reason labor gets cut first (at every company) is because it's the only thing to cut. WestJet and Southwest started as good businesses from the ground up. Air Canada, and the rest of the awful North American legacies are dinosaurs left over from the days when the government just took care of everyone.

[FADEC]

If all the flying is brought back in house, Scope is not an issue; it only matters when the flying is allowed out. Remember, the
Regionals (or connectors or whatever) were created by Air Canada, and given what was previously Air Canada flying. Not too long after, 243 AC pilots were laid off. It has been a bigger and bigger problem ever since.

Some of us had tried to get the attention of the Union guys in order to ensure that flyiing would not leave the mainline; we were told it didn't matter; it did and it does.

[Takeoff OK]

If you are as educated in business as you claim

I didn't.

Yes, you did. Maybe not explicitly, but you did.

Capital has time and again demonstrated its willingness to go to whatever means necessary to subdue labour and maximize their bottom line.

Yep. Private corporations are only in existence to make money.

This is true. Unfortunately, there is also a thing called morality. In point of fact, it was the absolute lack of morality on the part of capital when dealing with labour that resulted in the organized labour movements in the first place. Just because they want to squeeze every single nickel they can out of a venture doesn't mean they can, or should be able to. For the last 100+ years, unions have enforced compromise, and because of them you live in a society with a social safety net. Without it, democracy means absolutely nothing. So spare us the black and white.

Without them, there would never have been a true middle class.

Yep. If all of your competition is unionized, as it used to be, life is good. I'm not against the common worker, I am one. But I also think unions kill the golden goose if they don't match the competition. If someone wants to worker harder than you for less money, how is it your place to say they can't?

So, by your logic, everyone should lower the bar. The problem with your logic is that you cannot compare WJ or SWA to AC. They are such vastly different entities that there simply is no comparison. Are WJ and SWA kicking butt on a domestic level? You betcha! Can they provide true legacy international service and maintain their margins? Absolutely not. If you want to compare a legacy like AC to anyone, then look to Delta or Continited or AA. Furthermore, besides the pension (and we all know it will eventually leave AC's property at some point), WJ and SWA offer extremely lucrative compensation. In point of fact, Southwest pilots are actually the highest paid pilots in the entire North American passenger industry. Why? Because every single SWA employee is incentivized through bonuses to maintain on time performance. They also happen to be unionized. WJ, which is simply a Canadian version of SWA, created by the same person when he was locked out of the US industry for a pre-determined span of time due to a non-competition clause, operates under the exact same business plan, with a Canadian tweak. In the end, they are both single-type domestic (Yes, WJ guys and gals. You basically are.) carriers with minimal infrastructure.

Your questioning of why pilots should be able to play a role in determining their future is, I'm sure, intentionally obtuse.

Your own future, yes. The future of AC, nope. Not your responsibility.

You may be shocked by this, but I agree that AC management, as a whole, is useless. But even with a dream team, pretty much any Bay Street type who follows AC says your costs are too high. You can argue that labor costs are only a piece of the pie, but they are one of the few controllable pieces. The aircraft lease is what it is, fuel is what it is, passenger demand is what it is. The reason labor gets cut first (at every company) is because it's the only thing to cut. WestJet and Southwest started as good businesses from the ground up. Air Canada, and the rest of the awful North American legacies are dinosaurs left over from the days when the government just took care of everyone.

Actually, the reason labour gets cut first is because it is the quickest way to save a bit of money to ensure your corporate bonus. But it never actually saves the company anything substantial. In other words, pilot pay (pensions notwithstanding) will never, ON ANY LEVEL, make or break the future of Air Canada. Do you know how much each passenger pays per hour for their entire crew? Look it up, then get back to me.

[Takeoff OK]

If all the flying is brought back in house, Scope is not an issue; it only matters when the flying is allowed out. Remember, the
Regionals (or connectors or whatever) were created by Air Canada, and given what was previously Air Canada flying. Not too long after, 243 AC pilots were laid off. It has been a bigger and bigger problem ever since.

Some of us had tried to get the attention of the Union guys in order to ensure that flyiing would not leave the mainline; we were told it didn't matter; it did and it does.

Yep, it did and it does. But like I said before, you'll never get that flying back. The important thing is to not give away any more. Hopefully ACPA is doing something about the Sky Regional stuff. I doubt you'll win on that issue, especially under the new anti-labour majority. It will all come down to arbitration in the end, but shame on ACPA for ever letting that venture progress beyond a concept in the first place. Really f'n stupid, and unforgivable.

[TheSuit]

Yes, you did. Maybe not explicitly, but you did.

No, I claimed you (as a group) aren't.

For the last 100+ years, unions have enforced compromise, and because of them you live in a society with a social safety net. Without it, democracy means absolutely nothing. So spare us the black and white.

If you are working in a 19th century coal mine, yes you need a union because management will literally work you to death. If you are sewing Nikes in industrial China, you probably need a union because management will work you to death - I feel for those people because it's really not right. But a bunch of drivers working 15 days per month making $100K-$200K+ per annum demanding wage hikes? Don't make me laugh. And what does the union have to do with the social safety net? I pay taxes for that, not union dues.

The problem with your logic is that you cannot compare WJ or SWA to AC

The problem with your logic is that you are competing with those companies, and customers do compare them. The government had to lock out Emirates to avoid them obliterating your international traffic.

Why? Because every single SWA employee is incentivized through bonuses to maintain on time performance.

So what are AC employees going to do to make the airline better? Paying someone 10% more tomorrow will make them start working 10% harder? Yeah right.

Do you know how much each passenger pays per hour for their entire crew?

Actually, I do know. So when you knock some costs off the crew, the ground handlers, gate agents and fire some useless managers, it adds up to savings. Considering the margins are razor thin and you have little control over things like fuel costs, navigation, aircraft leases and interest payments, those savings start to look pretty attractive. So in the end, SW rakes in money so the SW pilots get paid. AC bleeds money, so AC pilots don't. Tough luck.

[Pos_init]

Suit: At what point do you think these overpaid pilots start making this salary at AC?? You do know the starting wage right? You do know how long it takes for some pilots at AC to make anywhere near 100K right? I'm curious about your background knowledge that's all. Oh, and you do know what pilots as a whole are making these days right?? Our wages have generally gone down, not up. Some companies seem te revel in the fact that their pilots must get help from a local food bank in order to feed their family. But you already knew that right??