Why are AME's underpaid?

[Schimunga]

Dr.Boeing--Reading your post I started to wonder... what about using a "work to rule" tactic with the AME's against management? Is there enough unhappy AME's there that if you got enough of them together to do the work to rule it might show management that they have to take you seriously? Reading what you wrote I can now see where your frustration comes from.

[torx]

UPS,going to $53.20
FedEx ,$44.60
Southwest, $43.03
AA rejected a TA of $37.10
United $35.80
Air Tran, $35.59
And these are all 2010 wages, if you are in the same bay which lets not kid ourselves you are not, you would know this as this was sent out by the IAM to the tech ops people!
Let me make something very clear, you are the one spinning crap! You say in one breath that you may be in the same bay as me, then in another line you say that you know that there are no part time AME's, if you were maint you would not even have had to mention that. you also said you did your research and realized that you could not challenge my assertions that my AC wage is lagging behind, if you were maint you would already know this! Added to that is your obvious vast knowledge of the airports world. Come clean!
FYI, Stores is not maintenance, they are logistic and supply and they too are general labour, but if this is what the rest of the industry is paying, then it is not an issue.
My issue is not the Station attendants, my issue is a union run by station attendants, station attendants who refuse to allow maintenance to have its own bargaining unit knowing full well that this would result in the airports world having to fall in line with the rest of the outfits out there. A negots chair who admits that the maint staff are way behind in wages but states in a public forum that there is no way in hell he is going to allow us to get a level playing field if the SA's are not given the same increase, and also using a line you used above about us in maint having a DB pension so therefore we can not have the same wage as those ahead of us. Well lets apply your logic to the airports group. Cut your wages to the Handlex wage and then factor in the DB and take another 14% wage cut, and then you will be in the same situation as the maint guys.
Kind of stings when reality slaps you in the face doesn't it Torx.
I do not begrudge you SA anything, I am telling you it is time for us to part ways. The only thing we have in common is the vacation policy as well as the sick policy.

Clearly you have an acrimonious realtionship with your local IAM. You started to sound sincere until the end of the post, then turned very insincere. In one thought you
you are asking for the support of the Rampies, then in the next moment you comment about what or who their wages should be aligned with.
The comment about the non-p/t AMEs' was for the airline world who are reading here all about Air Canada's dirty laundry. You see, not all readers know that fact. Just clarifying that detail. Being in the airline business for such a long time, as you, learn and know many aspects of this industry.
I picked the major Passenger Airlines in the USA and posted the link for average wages which was updated May 11th. Streamlined as you asked and within reasonable comparison. I did not include Freight and Sameday Air Carriers. Of course you find the company with the highest paid AME's in North America to make your comparison, than in the other hand you pick one of the lowest paid Ground Handling companies in Canada to make the Rampie wage comparison. You see...your thought process is slighted. To the point where I think that you just plain don't like Rampies. Doesn't really matter why at this point anyway.
Funny how all of a sudden, the Tool Room Issuer or Stock Keeper at the Hangar is now Logistics? Huh!
I could've mentioned several Canadian MROs that have not so great wages, benefits and working conditions. But what would be the point? Bringing in other Companies into our discussion would've likely been declared irrelevant by you and would have been disrespectful anyway.
Now about the part about you're being insincere?
Well, seemingly you were just conveying your thoughts about splitting from the Rampies bargaining unit. Fair enough, but than a parting remark about getting wages inline with your hand-picked Handlex unit. Hmmm....not much sincerity there, so how can you expect to receive it.
BTW, has it been that bad at Air Canada since you came over from Canadian Airlines? People really want to know!

Cheers mate and I won't be responding anymore to this thread. I believe I've fed the Troll enough!

[DrBoeing]

UPS,going to $53.20
FedEx ,$44.60
Southwest, $43.03
AA rejected a TA of $37.10
United $35.80
Air Tran, $35.59
And these are all 2010 wages, if you are in the same bay which lets not kid ourselves you are not, you would know this as this was sent out by the IAM to the tech ops people!
Let me make something very clear, you are the one spinning crap! You say in one breath that you may be in the same bay as me, then in another line you say that you know that there are no part time AME's, if you were maint you would not even have had to mention that. you also said you did your research and realized that you could not challenge my assertions that my AC wage is lagging behind, if you were maint you would already know this! Added to that is your obvious vast knowledge of the airports world. Come clean!
FYI, Stores is not maintenance, they are logistic and supply and they too are general labour, but if this is what the rest of the industry is paying, then it is not an issue.
My issue is not the Station attendants, my issue is a union run by station attendants, station attendants who refuse to allow maintenance to have its own bargaining unit knowing full well that this would result in the airports world having to fall in line with the rest of the outfits out there. A negots chair who admits that the maint staff are way behind in wages but states in a public forum that there is no way in hell he is going to allow us to get a level playing field if the SA's are not given the same increase, and also using a line you used above about us in maint having a DB pension so therefore we can not have the same wage as those ahead of us. Well lets apply your logic to the airports group. Cut your wages to the Handlex wage and then factor in the DB and take another 14% wage cut, and then you will be in the same situation as the maint guys.
Kind of stings when reality slaps you in the face doesn't it Torx.
I do not begrudge you SA anything, I am telling you it is time for us to part ways. The only thing we have in common is the vacation policy as well as the sick policy.

Clearly you have an acrimonious realtionship with your local IAM. You started to sound sincere until the end of the post, then turned very insincere. In one thought you
you are asking for the support of the Rampies, then in the next moment you comment about what or who their wages should be aligned with.
The comment about the non-p/t AMEs' was for the airline world who are reading here all about Air Canada's dirty laundry. You see, not all readers know that fact. Just clarifying that detail.
I picked the major Passenger Airlines in the USA and posted the link for average wages which was updated May 11th. Streamlined as you asked and within reasonable comparison. I did not include Freight and Sameday Air Carriers. Of course you find the company with the highest paid AME's in North America to make your comparison, than in the other hand you pick one of the lowest paid Ground Handling companies in Canada to make the Rampie wage comparison. You see...your thought process is slighted. To the point where I think that you just plain don't like Rampies. Doesn't really matter why at this point anyway.
Funny how all of a sudden, the Tool Room Issuer or Stock Keeper at the Hangar is now Logistics? Huh!
I could've mentioned several Canadian MROs that have not so great wages, benefits and working conditions. But what would be the point? Bringing in other Companies into our discussion that you would likely find irrelevant anyway,
Now about the part about you're being insincere?
Well, seemingly you were just conveying your thoughts about splitting from the Rampies bargaining unit. Fair enough, but than a parting remark about getting wages inline with your hand-picked Handlex unit. Hmmm....not much sincerity there, so how can you expect to receive it.
BTW, has it been that bad at Air Canada since you came over from Canadian Airlines? People really want to know!

Cheers mate and I won't be responding anymore to this thread. I believe I've fed the Troll enough!

You are calling me the troll, this from the person who poses as a maint person only to be exposed as a station attendant! Hmm, interesting
FYI, I never said tool room issuer was logistics, may I suggest some remedial reading. I also never asked for the support of the station attendants, again I suggest remedial reading!
The wages posted are of Airlines and cargo. Did you notice the best paying of the airlines is an LCC? probably not, you were too busy NOT reading what was written and trying to put words in peoples mouths.
FYI, Handlex is the best paid next to you at AC.
Nice try with the fishing expedition!!!!!! Started at AC 25 years ago in YUL, never ever worked at CAIL, but it is obvious you are not happy with those people either, just as you have an issue with the maint people, you know, what you pretended to be.
As to my relationship with the Station attendant run IAM, my view point echoes the majority of those in maintenance.

[DrBoeing]

Dr.Boeing--Reading your post I started to wonder... what about using a "work to rule" tactic with the AME's against management? Is there enough unhappy AME's there that if you got enough of them together to do the work to rule it might show management that they have to take you seriously? Reading what you wrote I can now see where your frustration comes from.

It would be deemed illegal and we would be fined at the minimum and the organizers would be terminated. Working to rule can olny be sanction by the union, and usually only when negotiations are going very poorly. At present the union and the company are only discussing each others agendas, I would hazard a guess that by mid June it will start getting to the meat and potatoes of the demands.
the interesting part of this is, the company seems willing to try and level the playing field, it is the union that is the problem. And once the AVEOS split happens, the maintenance guys are really going to get the crap end of the stick.
At present the negots committee is equal, same number of station attendants and maintenance people, with the post AVEOS split, the union has decided through some rocket scientist to change the committee ratio to a 7 to 3, 7 station attendant to 3 maintenance guys, this will, with out a doubt, cause a war.

[c170b53]

Torxey calls it quits? Oh that I doubt.
Getting back to the pay thing, what I am seeing is new planes that require a more sophisticated technician. As well the older planes are requiring more attention and those that were familiar with maintenance procedures on those aircraft are retiring. Its going to get interesting especially if wages remain stagnate to attract quality and retain experienced staff.

[DrBoeing]

Torxey calls it quits? Oh that I doubt.
Getting back to the pay thing, what I am seeing is new planes that require a more sophisticated technician. As well the older planes are requiring more attention and those that were familiar with maintenance procedures on those aircraft are retiring. Its going to get interesting especially if wages remain stagnate to attract quality and retain experienced staff.

this is an interesting point.
I have a close friend who teaches at CANADORE in North Bay, he was saying that his class that started in September was down to less than half by January, people either left or failed the mid term. Now with those that are left he expects 25% of those to not pass the final. These are year 1 people, who knows how many will be left after year 2.
What is even more interesting is, he says that many are here from other countries and plan to return to their country when finished their studies.

[Schimunga]

Dr.Boeing--Well it was just an idea. Does it look like the AME's will get a decent raise out of the new contract? Being in rotary I have never dealt with unions so this information is new to me.

As for students in school I was at Northern Lights College for a type course back in February and the instructor told me they don't have a spring term this year because of low enrolment.

[DrBoeing]

Dr.Boeing--Well it was just an idea. Does it look like the AME's will get a decent raise out of the new contract? Being in rotary I have never dealt with unions so this information is new to me.

As for students in school I was at Northern Lights College for a type course back in February and the instructor told me they don't have a spring term this year because of low enrolment.

Schimunga, Thanks for the support, I wish I could give you a more positive outlook.

The school situation is getting real scary with the dropping enrollments. We have been saying for years that it was a matter of time before it would become critical, that time is now here. This is what happens when a company or companies attack that portion of their operation and always looking for the cheapest way to do it. Eventually it gets to the point where people stop going into that sector, then the same companies who have been on the attack for years start asking what the problem is and how it can be solved. The answer is quite simple, MONEY TALKS!

[culver10]

The school situation sounds like GREAT news for us?? We will be in even more demand and have companies bidding for our experience? I have been working for myself doing private M1 work for the past 20 years and I recently started at a western based airline that has 90+ 737NG's. I love the people and the work! I'm finishing an annual on a 172 today on my 5 days off and I now HATE working on small aircraft for demanding owners who want their plane done so it can sit in the hangar and fly 20 hours/year.

[DrBoeing]

I recently started at a western based airline that has 90+ 737NG's. I love the people and the work!

That Western based airline is a good Airline and pays their AME's a decent wage. My eastern based airline has close to 300 in their fleet of different types and pays far less than your Western based. I hope you do very well with them, as stated, they are a good airline!

[Pat Richard]

The answer is quite simple, MONEY TALKS!

Been beating that drum on here forever, but be careful, you may labelled "miserable" now.

Trouble is, as can be seen on this forum, there are many who think we make plenty as is, so it will be quite some time before anything improves on the wage front.

Somebody made a comment with respect to our responsibilities verses a bus driver, and that bus drivers should therefore be making 50 an hour. Shows how stupid some are on here when they miss the most direct comparison, which is what the bus mechanic makes.
I personally heard radio ad's offering 33 an hour to start for journeyman mechs, and this was in the lower mainland, not ft mac., and it went up from there.
Take into account also what happens when a bus breaks down vs when a aircraft does, and do you still think we don't have the bigger responsibility.?But I know, it not as cool to wrench on buses, right??

To say we are the same or lesser is shit, and anyone who honestly believes that has their heads firmly planted up there asses. Disagree?? Well just wait until you get a call an aircraft you just worked on has to return to base, or worse, crashed. Argue me the same scenario, with regards to stress, a heavy duty mechanic has to experience. Bunch of bullshit.

If for no other reason, liability should be the reason we deserve to make more than a bus mechanic, if you are ACA'd.



Jesus

[culver10]

They start us off with a $1500 uniform credit and a $250 boot allowance.

YEG is still looking for more AME's and with the oil patch ramping up again, it will be tough finding good "local" folks.

[DrBoeing]

They start us off with a $1500 uniform credit and a $250 boot allowance.

YEG is still looking for more AME's and with the oil patch ramping up again, it will be tough finding good "local" folks.

After that 1500 what is the yearly uniform allowance? What is the overtime rate like.

[iflyforpie]

Team Teal sounds tempting, but YEG does not....

[Grease Nipple]

The school situation sounds like GREAT news for us?? We will be in even more demand and have companies bidding for our experience?

A more likely scenario is that operators will petition TC to make it easier to optain an AME license to make up for the shortage. This would take the value out
of the license and pay would drop. Unfortunately companies don't bid for experience, all HR peeps care about is if you can sign the log book.

[NFF]

Team Teal sounds tempting, but YEG does not....

Looks like some issues with the AMES over at westjet right now.....

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=73688

[NFF]

Dr.Boeing--Reading your post I started to wonder... what about using a "work to rule" tactic with the AME's against management? Is there enough unhappy AME's there that if you got enough of them together to do the work to rule it might show management that they have to take you seriously? Reading what you wrote I can now see where your frustration comes from.

It would be deemed illegal and we would be fined at the minimum and the organizers would be terminated. Working to rule can olny be sanction by the union, and usually only when negotiations are going very poorly. At present the union and the company are only discussing each others agendas, I would hazard a guess that by mid June it will start getting to the meat and potatoes of the demands.
the interesting part of this is, the company seems willing to try and level the playing field, it is the union that is the problem. And once the AVEOS split happens, the maintenance guys are really going to get the crap end of the stick.
At present the negots committee is equal, same number of station attendants and maintenance people, with the post AVEOS split, the union has decided through some rocket scientist to change the committee ratio to a 7 to 3, 7 station attendant to 3 maintenance guys, this will, with out a doubt, cause a war.

Dr.Boeing I hope your Maintenance Dept. finally manages to break away from the rampies. This union, pardon the pun, never made sense. Unskilled and skilled workforces should never be lumped together due mostly because one benefits and the other suffers. Your department finally being paid like a lead horse would not only be good for you but for Canadian AMEs in general. More money for any AME body raises the bar for other companies interested in trying to retain quality AMEs.Good luck.

[DrBoeing]

Dr.Boeing--Reading your post I started to wonder... what about using a "work to rule" tactic with the AME's against management? Is there enough unhappy AME's there that if you got enough of them together to do the work to rule it might show management that they have to take you seriously? Reading what you wrote I can now see where your frustration comes from.

It would be deemed illegal and we would be fined at the minimum and the organizers would be terminated. Working to rule can olny be sanction by the union, and usually only when negotiations are going very poorly. At present the union and the company are only discussing each others agendas, I would hazard a guess that by mid June it will start getting to the meat and potatoes of the demands.
the interesting part of this is, the company seems willing to try and level the playing field, it is the union that is the problem. And once the AVEOS split happens, the maintenance guys are really going to get the crap end of the stick.
At present the negots committee is equal, same number of station attendants and maintenance people, with the post AVEOS split, the union has decided through some rocket scientist to change the committee ratio to a 7 to 3, 7 station attendant to 3 maintenance guys, this will, with out a doubt, cause a war.

Dr.Boeing I hope your Maintenance Dept. finally manages to break away from the rampies. This union, pardon the pun, never made sense. Unskilled and skilled workforces should never be lumped together due mostly because one benefits and the other suffers. Your department finally being paid like a lead horse would not only be good for you but for Canadian AMEs in general. More money for any AME body raises the bar for other companies interested in trying to retain quality AMEs.Good luck.

I had an interesting conversation with HRDC today and the person I spoke with supplied me with the info I have been looking for. As per the GOV of Canada we are listed as a Highly Skilled trade. That coupled with what TC said to me, I think I now have enough info to go to the CIRB and challenge the make up of the bargaining unit. If successful, the CIRB will have no option but to split the unit.

[conehead]

A "Highly Skilled" trade? I would really like to see that in print... because if true, then things have changed.

[Schimunga]

Conehead--Of course its a "highly skilled trade", you have lives in your hands.

[iflyforpie]

So does a short-order cook or a baby-sitter, technically... Just sayin'

[c170b53]

Ya I know the feeling and think hard about it every time as I bring my club away from the ball: those poor bastards on the other fairway.

[DrBoeing]

A "Highly Skilled" trade? I would really like to see that in print... because if true, then things have changed.

Conehead, just for you, http://www5.hrsdc.gc.ca/NOC/English/NOC ... &val1=2244
We are listed as level B which is highly skilled as per the national occupational standards. It also show the education and training required. Where as the station attendants are listed as level D general labour.
Here is the chart that I copied and pasted

The 4 Skill Levels (both alphabetic characters and numerical values) used in the NOC.
NOC Skill Levels
Skill Level
(alpha)
Skill Level
(digit)
Nature of Education/ Training

A-Occupations usually require university education.
Skill Level (digit) 1- University degree at the bachelor's, master's or doctorate level.

B- Occupations usually require college or vocational education or apprenticeship training.
Skill Level (digit) 2 or 3 -Two to three years of post-secondary education at a community college, institute of technology or CEGEP
or Two to five years of apprenticeship training or Three to four years of secondary school and more than two years of on-the-job training, specialized training courses or specific work experience. Occupations with supervisory responsibilities and occupations with significant health and safety responsibilities, such as firefighters, police officers and registered nursing assistants are all assigned the Skill Level B.

C- Occupations usually require secondary school and/or occupation-specific training.
Skill Level (digit)4 or 5 - One to four years of secondary school education or Up to two years of on-the-job training, specialized training courses or specific work experience.


D-On-the-job training is usually provided for occupations.
Skill Level (digit)6- Short work demonstration or on-the-job training
or No formal educational requirements.

[conehead]

You guys are misinterpreting my post. I agree that we should be classed as "highly skilled", but when I looked into this a few years ago, we were not. Obviously, the classification has changed. I hope that this will help some authority realize that we are being mis represented by our current bargaining agent.

Gotta go, game 2 is about to begin.

[Pat Richard]

You guys are misinterpreting my post. I agree that we should be classed as "highly skilled", but when I looked into this a few years ago, we were not. Obviously, the classification has changed. I hope that this will help some authority realize that we are being mis represented by our current bargaining agent.

Gotta go, game 2 is about to begin.

Was thinking that's what you probably meant, but your post could be taken either way.

Interesting stuff, regardless.