Tech Ops guys PM ME

[bombardierfixer]

Hey guys I'm just trying to see what the mood is in maintenance at you're base.

[johnkruk]

well how can management make us happier without spending any money? can't wait for this next meeting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wagner]

I hope they wake up and start to take our issues seriously. The talk in the van at my base is increasinly about starting a form of bargaining that would force them to listen. A few years ago there wouldn't have be a lot of support but more and more people are begining to feel that that is the only way we protect ourselves and be treated fairly. I myself don't even know anymore.

What I do know is that these meetings are one way or the other have a huge impact on the future of this company relationship with maintenance.

[johnkruk]

YA wow a wage that was actually negotiated instead of take it or leave it and being told that there is only a one percent turnover in tec ops so there is no reason to pay more. Theres not a lot of work out there for AME's and they are lucky. And this BS of %50 of the median, I thought they want to be one of the top airlines in the world by 2016??????? and they put us in at %50 of the median? I guess they figure having quality AME's is not part of being a top airline! YEG is not to happy to say the least!!!!

[mikeecho]

I think the AME's at Air Canada (um...Aveos) negotiated their wages. I wonder how happy they are?

[Wagner]

Guess we'll see soon..

[NGwrench]

I have been here for 8yrs plus and the company has changed alot since I began. The formula no longer works for determining wages for AMEs and needs to be revisited. I do not understand management's logic in giving your most loyal and experienced AMEs that are stuck at the top of the AME pay scale peanuts every year for an increase. These meetings will be interesting to say the least. But they certainly will not amount to much unless all the van talkers actually show up in force. I am not interested in a (u word) coming in at all and quite frankly would not suport one but I have been hearing it more now then ever. I hope mangement listens to the valid concerns that are tabled.

[jjj]

Do the AMEs have a voice like WJPA or do you just get swallowed up in PACT?

[Wagner]

No voice, just swallowed up in PACT. Thats a big part of our problem.

[CanadaEH]

YA wow a wage that was actually negotiated instead of take it or leave it and being told that there is only a one percent turnover in tec ops so there is no reason to pay more. Theres not a lot of work out there for AME's and they are lucky. And this BS of %50 of the median, I thought they want to be one of the top airlines in the world by 2016??????? and they put us in at %50 of the median? I guess they figure having quality AME's is not part of being a top airline! YEG is not to happy to say the least!!!!

Sounds like the Company is taking a look at your department so that's a step in the right direction, isn't it?

As a matter of interest, how does your compensation compare when you factor in profit share and 20% ESP?

[bombardierfixer]

First off:
Profit share is a bonus, you cannot bank on it.
ESP is awesome, IF you can take advantage of it. It only works if you live in a two income house. Don't get me wrong I love it but I am not the primary wage earner in my home. My take home because of ESP just covers the cost of child care.

The problem is, is there is no longterm viability in maintenance. Once you are out of the pay bands you start to slide backwards due to market pressures. The median philosophy is broken due to the fact of the value we bring to the table. We have different trades yes but we all do each others job depending on the requirement of the task. We operate with one of the lowest AME to aircraft ratios in North America.

Westjet set the median with in its own pay structures in 2001, we have not kept up with our contemperaies in westjet, that being Band 7 and the co-pilots. Our responsibilities now because of restructuring are not being reflected in equitable pay. This is what we are going after.

I'm glad that the EVP's have heard us and we have a opportunity to change things.
This isn't about greed, "not knowing our place" or what ever else was said on Westnet. This is about being fair and compensating AME's for what they are worth. This is a watershed moment that hopefully shakes up the entire industry.

Jon YYC

[The Fish]

Westjet set the median with in its own pay structures in 2001, we have not kept up with our contemperaies in westjet, that being Band 7 and the co-pilots.

There's your problem,
you guys need to compare yourself to other people in the industry that do your job! Find out who the best paid 37 wrenchers are in Canada and shoot for that, and hopefully get something close to it. Who cares what the execs or pilots are paid, that's apples and oranges. you need AME vs AME, lot harder to argue with that logic. I believe this is how the WJ pilots negotiated their last agreement.

Sincerely all the best in getting what you're looking for!!


The Fish

[CanadaEH]

Profit share is a bonus, you cannot bank on it.

You're absolutely right.

ESP is awesome, IF you can take advantage of it. It only works if you live in a two income house. Don't get me wrong I love it but I am not the primary wage earner in my home. My take home because of ESP just covers the cost of child care.

You can make it work for you if you are smart about it. Not everyone is a savvy investor or good with their money (I know I haven't been!!).

The problem is, is there is no longterm viability in maintenance. Once you are out of the pay bands you start to slide backwards due to market pressures. The median philosophy is broken due to the fact of the value we bring to the table. We have different trades yes but we all do each others job depending on the requirement of the task. We operate with one of the lowest AME to aircraft ratios in North America.

Sorry I'm not following you? What is the long-term viability you seek? We're always going to need maintenance personnel. When do you get "out of the pay bands" and how do you slide backwards? The median philosophy isn't broken, your comparators are. You're damn right you bring value to the table but your "trade" is being paid less but the competition, which in turn hurts your position for the annual salary review. Operating with one of the lowest AME ratios (if true) is something you should be proud of. I certainly don't want to see more bodies added just to make us "competitive".

Westjet set the median with in its own pay structures in 2001, we have not kept up with our contemperaies in westjet, that being Band 7 and the co-pilots. Our responsibilities now because of restructuring are not being reflected in equitable pay. This is what we are going after.

Sorry I'm not following you again?? Our philosophy is to pay the market median (100%) of comparable positions at other Companies. If Position "A" has gotten a big increase, it's probably because that position is paying more at the competition and/or comparables. If your position has gotten no increase, it's probably because your position is watching its pay get cut. Supply and demand, no?

I'm glad that the EVP's have heard us and we have a opportunity to change things.
This isn't about greed, "not knowing our place" or what ever else was said on Westnet. This is about being fair and compensating AME's for what they are worth. This is a watershed moment that hopefully shakes up the entire industry.

I hope you get what you're looking for, Jon. I sincerely do.

[Sparkfarmer]

Considering the job we do and the liability assumed, AMEs are underpaid in the industry. The Median philosophy is flawed in this regard. Its about fair compensation for the job. Do we need to wait for AME Unions to get a pay raise for us to? Because that's the way it currently works.

The aircraft are becoming more and more automated. This means that the AME's job is getting more and more complex, while a pilot's job is getting more streamlined (gotta love those FMCs, eh?). I actually heard a captain complaining to dispatch for having to "hand fly" for three hours because of an autopilot issue... His seat was "soaked with sweat" apparently... At a senior capt's rate (holy Sh*tballs!), the poor baby... My heart goes out to him.

A pilot's responsibility ends when he walks off the airplane, while an AME is legally liable for the job he has performed until the aircraft is retired.

Things like the above example frustrate me, but please don't misunderstand, this is not about pilots vs AMEs. In fact the better this relationship is, the easier our jobs become. For me, its about having the same input into the wage review process as our pilots do, as well as the same stakes in the company: Interest based bargaining and the stock options.

Is that unreasonable?

No one wants a union and I believe that the vast majority of AMEs agree, but in my opinion the review process for AMEs needs to be changed for there to be positive forward progress.

[stickontheice]

What's unreasonable to me is reading this on a public forum.

[Wagner]

What's unreasonable to me is reading this on a public forum.

We have no voice. The only other option is to sit back and quietly watch as year after year our quality of life goes further backwards and every other employee group go's flying ahead of us. We have completly had it with that option.

[Wagner]

its about having the same input into the wage review process as our pilots do, as well as the same stakes in the company: Interest based bargaining and the stock options.

the review process for AMEs needs to be changed for there to be positive forward progress.

+1

[True North]

The aircraft are becoming more and more automated. This means that the AME's job is getting more and more complex, while a pilot's job is getting more streamlined (gotta love those FMCs, eh?). I actually heard a captain complaining to dispatch for having to "hand fly" for three hours because of an autopilot issue... His seat was "soaked with sweat" apparently... At a senior capt's rate (holy Sh*tballs!), the poor baby... My heart goes out to him.

Things like the above example frustrate me, but please don't misunderstand, this is not about pilots vs AMEs.

Then I guess you shouldn't make it about pilots vs AMEs.

I call bullshit anyway. I just talked to a couple of my WJ buddies and the auto pilot is a groundable item so nobody was hand flying for 3 hours.

[Troubleshot]

I think the reference to pilots vs AME's is in regards to ratio of increases over the years. I don't think any AME at WestJet is looking for the same wage as a pilot, but rather equality when it comes to fair compensation. I think a few WestJet pilots maybe ruffled a few feathers here regarding this issue by picking apart the AME's concerns rather than support them.

Good luck boys, you deserve more.


and BTW the auto pilot is not a groundable item...the pilots can refuse to take it however if the flight is really long.

[True North]

and BTW the auto pilot is not a groundable item...the pilots can refuse to take it however if the flight is really long.

Better check your info. It's not a Boeing MEL, it's a WJ MEL according to the training pilot I spoke to.

[Sparkfarmer]

What's unreasonable to me is reading this on a public forum.

Perhaps your right... Last thing I am going to say here, because I think I was taken the wrong way:

True North,

Its not an us vs them thing and that's not where I wanted to go. The example was meant to highlight a very valid point: The automation has made the AME's job more complex, and simplified the flight crews. If your picking up on the frustration its not directed at the pilots, its the situation...

As for the example being BS, it happened mid air, returning from the US (past the midway point I guess?) and your right, when it landed it was grounded. Didn't even try to see if it was deferrable. Was the pilot exaggerating on the length of time hand flying? Maybe, but that's what was said.

[True North]

Fair enough Sparkfarmer.

I do sense your frustration and I sympathize. For the record, I have always respected the men and women who have wrenched on my airplane throughout my career and felt they were under valued and under paid. Best of luck in your negotiations.

[Troubleshot]

and BTW the auto pilot is not a groundable item...the pilots can refuse to take it however if the flight is really long.

Better check your info. It's not a Boeing MEL, it's a WJ MEL according to the training pilot I spoke to.

Well all the 737 NG's I've worked on (including WestJets) the Auto-pilot is deferable, it has been 4 years since I've worked there so maybe it has changed.

anyways, back on topic.

You guys need a union in some form or another if management won't overhaul the AME scale. The pay sucks starting off and sucks after you've been there awhile. Maybe some voices on a forum will get the ear of someone in YYC. Good luck!!

[CanadaEH]

Considering the job we do and the liability assumed, AMEs are underpaid in the industry. The Median philosophy is flawed in this regard. Its about fair compensation for the job. Do we need to wait for AME Unions to get a pay raise for us to? Because that's the way it currently works.

You have the ears of the EVP of People who has acknowledged that he will be looking at your department - that's a very good step in the right direction.

[Singlebogie]

The thing about the autopilot is that we have to have it engaged in level flight in RVSM airspace (above 29000 feet) so we would never dispatch with the AP inop. Raises for all of you.
SB