Tech Ops guys PM ME

[True North]

The thing about the autopilot is that we have to have it engaged in level flight in RVSM airspace (above 29000 feet) so we would never dispatch with the AP inop. Raises for all of you.
SB

Better check your MEL. No raise for you.

[Singlebogie]

OK Smarty, what does it say?
Without having it in front of me, I think it refers to the fact that it is not required unless an AP is required for the particular route flown. I think the only route we could fly would be YEG-YYC-YEG, but I am open to being enlightened.
SB

[True North]

I don't know what it says, I don't work there. I am simply quoting one of your training pilots and since he's a trainer I assume he knows what he's talking about. You can check or not, doesn't matter a whit to me.

[True North]

True North,

Its not an us vs them thing and that's not where I wanted to go. The example was meant to highlight a very valid point: The automation has made the AME's job more complex, and simplified the flight crews. If your picking up on the frustration its not directed at the pilots, its the situation...

As for the example being BS, it happened mid air, returning from the US (past the midway point I guess?) and your right, when it landed it was grounded. Didn't even try to see if it was deferrable. Was the pilot exaggerating on the length of time hand flying? Maybe, but that's what was said.

Sparkfarmer,

I reread this I have to say this statement bothers me and it's not helping your cause:

"The automation has made the AME's job more complex, and simplified the flight crews."

I could argue that the automation makes your job simpler too. All you have to do now is a BITE test and the airplane tells you what's wrong. But I wouldn't say that because I don't do your job. I don't fly for WJ but I have plenty of time in the NG so I definitely understand the job. Automation has not made the pilot's job simpler, it has made it far more complex. Ask any of your older pilots which airplane was easier to fly, the NG or the Dino. The NG was designed to be flown using the A/P. When it isn't working it adds a new level of complexity to the job. Add to that the scope of WJ's operation and I can easily understand why your MEL would restrict flight without an autopilot.

If you go back and reread your first post I think you'll have to admit it's fairly dripping with sarcasm when you refer to pilots. You feel you are underpaid for the responsibilities you bear (I agree) but you try to justify that position by comparing your job to that of the pilots - using a really bad analogy - then you say it's not an us and them thing with the pilots. I'm not convinced but that's irrelevant.

if I was in your position, going into a negotiation, I would be trying to get the WJ pilots on my side - not alienating them.

[stickontheice]

+1 to TrueNorth

I was flying not too long ago and I had a maintenance guy come on board. He start unloading how they weren't happy. They were always paid in between a Captain and a FO. Now they were paid less than a FA. My first thought. Brutal! You're comparing yourselves with pilots and obviously think FOs are less than AMEs. Then to go on and speak about the FAs like that just turned my stomach.

I'm with you guys but can you try a different approach?? You sure made me feel low. How about comparing Apples with Apples and leave us Oranges alone??

[NGwrench]

What's unreasonable to me is reading this on a public forum.

hypocrite we all know where your last negotiations were aired

I was flying not too long ago and I had a maintenance guy come on board. He start unloading how they weren't happy. They were always paid in between a Captain and a FO. Now they were paid less than a FA. My first thought. Brutal! You're comparing yourselves with pilots and obviously think FOs are less than AMEs. Then to go on and speak about the FAs like that just turned my stomach.

I agree not the best method but obviously very fustrated like many of us. I highly doubt his intent was for you to think about yourself and miss his point completely.

if I was in your position, going into a negotiation, I would be trying to get the WJ pilots on my side - not alienating them.

We are definitely not trying to alienate them. AME's at this company for the most part have a professional respect for flight crew. We would like their support and if they disagree then let us play this thing out without trying to trivialize it or undermine it.

TrueNorth I think discussing the dispatchability of an NG with A/P woes is a feable attempt to hijack this thread and clearly shows your complete diregard for our profession, no matter how you spin it.

[Singlebogie]

Agreed. TrueNorth take it down the hall- you're not helping here.
SB

[True North]

TrueNorth I think discussing the dispatchability of an NG with A/P woes is a feable attempt to hijack this thread and clearly shows your complete diregard for our profession, no matter how you spin it.

Wow, that's quite a stretch. How do you get there from here? I said a couple of times I have nothing but respect for your profession, are you trying to change my mind?

I didn't bring up he A/P issue, your fellow AME did.

[True North]

Agreed. TrueNorth take it down the hall- you're not helping here.
SB

You'll have to do much better than that. If you want to dispute something I said please do otherwise you're just talking to hear yourself speak.

[Singlebogie]

TN, you are flip-floppin' like a Coho in a tray. Makes you pretty hard to follow, let alone dispute. What is it you are saying anyway?
Best fishes,
SB

[True North]

Let me dumb it down for you Singlebogie. If you are a WJ AME, about to enter negots, it would be in your best interests to have support from other groups, notably the pilots. Alienating the WJ pilot group by making sarcastic remarks and comparing your job to that of a pilot will be counter productive.

Let me state one last time, since some of your reading and comprehension skills seem to a bit lacking; I have nothing but respect for the AME profession and have always felt they were undervalued. I have no idea what a WJ AME makes but it is obviously an issue for some and I sincerely hope you work it out. WestJet is a rare aviation success story, even more so because it is a Canadian aviation success story. Here’s hoping that continues.

[Troubleshot]

What about FA's now?....don't get me started on this because I've heard it all before. FA's hardly require any training/education at all to do their job...sure they may be good at it, or take it seriously but when it comes right down to it they are a un-skilled workforce. Period. FA's shouldn't even be in the same breath as AME's when it comes to talking money....yet most of them are doing just as good as AME's. When your last job was at the GAP you can see where I'm going with this...

Have a look at Transat, Sunwing, Air Canada, etc... AME scales guys, much higher than yours. You need a voice, either by a traditional union or something in house but something needs to be done.

I can see what the WestJet pilots here really think of their Tech Ops personel by some of their post....I am kinda lost for words to be honest, but I guess not shocked.

[CanadaEH]

FA's shouldn't even be in the same breath as AME's when it comes to talking money....yet most of them are doing just as good as AME's.

FA's top out at $43,550/year (7 years). AME's top out at $69,355/year (6 years) or $75,075/year (6 years) w/ 737 endorsement and WJ ACA. It's easy to point the finger a a group and tar them all with the same brush but I guarantee there aren't a lot of FA's making $75,000/year. I don't doubt there might be some but they're probably working at the limit of what they can legally work, have no social life, and spend most of their time in the air or on the road. Not the life I want to have.

[Sparkfarmer]

Let me state one last time, since some of your reading and comprehension skills seem to a bit lacking; I have nothing but respect for the AME profession...

LOL! Apparently. Now that's some funny sh*t, right there! Priceless. Troll.

[jetsetfly]

Westjet AME'S(M,S,E & Apprentices) really need to form an Association(not union) and stick together just like the Pilots have done and we need legal help from outside e.g. Getting a Lawyer who specializes in company wages ... of course its not all going to be free but am willing to pay some amount of money more then 2.50 for PACT so that our voices are heard.

[True North]

Troll? Really?? I suggested that taking shots at your pilots might alienate them. I also suggested that comparing AME and pilot jobs might not be a good strategy and somehow this means I have no respect for the AME profession and I'm a troll.

Sounds like you have your strategy all mapped out. Be sure to let us know how that works out for you.

This means that the AME's job is getting more and more complex, while a pilot's job is getting more streamlined (gotta love those FMCs, eh?). I actually heard a captain complaining to dispatch for having to "hand fly" for three hours because of an autopilot issue... His seat was "soaked with sweat" apparently... At a senior capt's rate (holy Sh*tballs!), the poor baby... My heart goes out to him.

Tell us again how much you respect pilots.

[stickontheice]

No lack of respect on my part either....in my opinion you guys do great work and our relationship is important. However I think a couple of people here that are blind with anger and not reading the posts properly. Maybe they should have BITE tests done on themselves 'cause I think there's a screw or two loose. I just think you should compare apples and apples and oranges with oranges. Pilots aren't a fair comparator. Now that I think about it though I'm pretty proud of my work. My pay should reflect that so I'm thinking I should get paid in between Gregg S. and the EVPs. 750K ought to do it

Further to the hypocrite remarks to two wrongs don't make a right. I personally never commented on the agreement here because I didn't think it was appropriate either.

[Sparkfarmer]

True North: This is a thread about AME compensation at Westjet. Firstly, you've tried to hijack the thread and make it about autopilot MELs, correcting us on what it says (which I find quite amusing since you've never read it). Now you've tried to stir up a little drama here an make it about pilot's vs AMEs. Exactly the opposite direction than I had intended but far more interesting than AME compensation I guess. So, ya, your a total troll... Wander along now little troll... Go find another bridge to sit under.

[Sparkfarmer]

To the Pilot's at Westjet:

My example was not meant to be inflammatory and I am sorry if that's the effect its had. There is a lot of frustration/emotion involved it this for your AMEs and I can't say I'm surprised if your noticing when talking with some of us. There is no question, it would be very helpful if you work with us and assist in finding that middle ground that is mutually beneficial to both AMEs and Westjet. That's the goal. That's what we are trying to accomplish. This is a path that you have already walked and your experience/support would be invaluable and greatly appreciated.

[Wagner]

I'd like to clearify that what we have been Trying to compare is the % of raise increases between ames, fa's and pilots over the last ten years or so. Not the positions themselves. This is relevent because we are the core of the airline specific band and Ames have been left in the dust by both the pilots and fa's. It is also relevent for us to compare to pilots in the area of responsibility. When we sign the book we are on the line for the work performed till that aircraft is retired. There have been many cases of aca's being brought to criminal court recently and some were for maintenance performed many years prior. Haven't seen many cases of f/o's or f/a's before the courts. We take on this responsibility every day and are paid far less then trades with non of that responsibiliy.

[Wagner]

For the record I think that all our pilots, f/o's and f/ a's do an increadible job and are worth every penny they make and more.

[True North]

True North: This is a thread about AME compensation at Westjet. Firstly, you've tried to hijack the thread and make it about autopilot MELs, correcting us on what it says (which I find quite amusing since you've never read it). Now you've tried to stir up a little drama here an make it about pilot's vs AMEs. Exactly the opposite direction than I had intended but far more interesting than AME compensation I guess. So, ya, your a total troll... Wander along now little troll... Go find another bridge to sit under.

What's really amuzing about all of this is I'm on your side. I didn't hijack the thread, it was a side bar at best. I brought up the A/P MEL (was I wrong?) in response to your shot at the pilots, which you finally seem to grasp might have been off the mark. Good on you. The rest was in response to your statement that automation has made your job harder and the pilots job easier. That is dead wrong, but you want to use it to compare your job with a pilot's. That tack will send you down in flames but if you insist on comparing jobs, and you guys seem bent on it, focus on the responsibility.

So you can call me a troll if it makes you feel better, I can take it but I'm not going anywhere.

And again, best of luck to you guys. I sincerely hope you work it out.

I believe it's profit sharing day for you guys tomorrow, forget this crap and at least enjoy the day. Congratulations!

[WJ700]

An example of when the Autopilot has been deferred would be when I flew in to EWR. Some servo thingy went in the trim and took out both autopilots. The defect was three pages in the logbook, no rvsm, no cat2, no A/P A or B. The crew that took over then flew the aircraft back in daytime hours with below RVSM. Expensive but it was done because it was a safe time and acceptable. I think the other times its considered 'not deferrable' is just logic taking place. Redeyes, or long flights with lack of RVSM which burn excessive fuel.

As for the rest of this show, I support my AME's and view them as equals. I'm also not offended by Sparkfarmer either. Keep in mind that sometimes the written word just doesn't come across on a forum like it should over a pub table, but sometimes a beer or two is still involved (guilty here). I truly think we should pay them a million per year when I see them out in the cold changing a tire, but I also don't run the company for that reason.

[culver10]

I’m not sure of the current number of AME’s at Westjet? Maybe someone that has been here longer than me will know that? My assumption is that we are less than 5% of the WJ workforce? I feel that as a group we need reinforce to the rest of the team that we are a unique group. We all have a college diploma, many years of experience and when we sign out an aircraft; accept a huge amount of liability. As a comm pilot myself, I respect the many lean, hard years our pilots took to get to their position. I cannot imagine what the FA’s have to put up with unruly, drunk guests. It must cost WJ a pile of money to send us on our 5 week endorsement course and then have that person leave for greener pastures? The management keeps stressing the 50% median for our wage. I feel they are going to have realize that maybe we are different than the rest of the 95% of the team and maybe we deserve more than the 50%? As such a small group, we need the support of our fine pilots and bashing each other will not solve anything.

[Trevor]

I’m not sure of the current number of AME’s at Westjet? Maybe someone that has been here longer than me will know that?

December 2010 - 465 full time employees in maintenance. No specific number for AMEs.