What is it about the ATC training...

[wenchie]

So many people seem to be CT'd in the training sessions. Pretty crummy to make it that far and not succeed.

What are some of the main reasons? From my experience in reading the forums, it's not generally "knowledge." Or, is it? It baffles me.

[GregT]

I went thru ATC training >15 years ago so it could be way different then. I was back in the day when everyone went to Cornwall, ON. I believe now most training is done in your home province? (I am out of ATC now).

Anyway, about half my class got CT'd after the first three months. They intentionally made it as stressful as possible by building it up into a big one-time non-radar evaluation where if you failed, you got an airplane ticket home, no appeals and no questions asked or answered. I think this stress killed a lot of people. (I made it through that, but I can honestly say it was one of the highest-stress weeks of my life at the time. I know have a bit more perspective, but still...).

Also, in my case anyway, almost all of us were young guys (20-25 years old) with not a lot of stamina or dedication... many of us were kind of surprised to find ourselves there in the first place, and weren't all that committed. However there were a couple of older family guys who tended to do poorly despite their maturity.

One thing I did not see any correlation with whatsoever was prior aviation experience. FSS guys and pilots did not seem to fare any better or worse. NOW, I am a PPL (almsot) and would ABSOLUTELY tell anyone going into ATC (especially if they are working tower) to do a PPL if they can afford it. My perspective on ATC has changed totally as a result of doing flight training.

In retrospect I think the three-month high-stress shake-out approach that they had was a good thing.

[Braun]

Truth is often, candidates who make it to the floor (working live traffic) often are able to accomplish the job to 95% of the time but lack the 5% that makes the difference. It's hard to explain. Knowing MANOPS and theory inside and out will NOT mean you will qualify. Dedication is nice but even then i've seen many VERY dedicated people get CT'd 7+ months into on the job training. In 5 years I have not seen 1 person get CT'd for lack of knowledge. Failed exams yes, but they all ended up getting through. The first huge CT burst is usually in the sim evaluations. If you make it to the floor your chances technically are better but where I work it is about 20% of trainees who qualified once on the floor. To give an example we were 12 on our course. 7 got CT'd in the initial evals and then only 3 of us qualified as ATC. Granted some courses have had better results and some worse.

[robshelle]

ATC is not an easy job, nor should the qualification be easy. Once you don't have an OJI looking over your shoulder, you are responsible for everything that happens in your specialty, sector or position. The difference between working live traffic and the sim is that you can not pause, and reload live traffic, and very few people can handle the stresses of working this way. The way I explain it to my friends is that I could take 50% of the people off the street, and train them to do about 75% of my job. A further 40% could probably do my job to about 90%. 5% could do 95% and 4% could do 99%. This may sound egotistical, but it is the truth(anybody who know me knows that I don't have a big ego, unlike some other controllers). On quiet days, anybody could do it, but when the brown stuff is hitting the fan, do you want the 1% who can do the whole enchelada, or the 4% who can only do 99%? The real difficulty and expense in training controllers is that we really can't tell who that final 1% is until they've gone through the whole training regime, so that means that we have to go through a selection process to find them, and that means going through a very tough classroom/simulation environment to try and wed out those who can't do it. It is unfortunate, but many people, myself included(in the IFR environment), go through the whole training experience, just to be released at the end.

When I was a flight instructor, I saw this same process in piloting. Lots of people could become private pilots, most of them competent ones. About a quarter of my private students could probably have become commercial pilots, but not all of them would have had the aptitude and the decision making abilities to be good pilots working in the industry. And very few of those would have been able to handle the stresses and regimes required in the IFR world (or floats I assume, but I never worked that side of the industry).

Robbie Benusic, CYEG Tower

[radaration]

Interesting that this thread should come up.

So would you gents say that the bigger percentage of newcomers is of the group of 'loose' people, signing up without knowing just what to expect(Either cause of a lax attitude or not having done their homework), thinking it would be as easy as just about any other 'everyday' job?

[parrot_head]

Here's a re-post from a previous chat about training...

.....the answer is all of the above. Solid work ethic and commitment will get you through the Basic course. The people that don't make it thru Basic are the ones that don't go home and study MANOPS for 2-3 hours a night and don't take advantage of the free time in the classroom on the weekends for practice runs on the sims. This extra time and effort away from the classroom does not go unnoticed by your instructors.

Once you get thru Basic and into a specialty course, that's where the fun starts. You still have to apply time to MANOPS study while in the classroom as well as additional study for unit agreements and specialty procedures. Again, good work ethic will get you thru this. Once you get into the simulator your attitude will play a big part. You are going to receive ALOT of criticism for ALOT of things. How you handle this "constructive feedback" will go a long way to determining your success. If you battle the instructors on every little thing and don't admit when you've made a mistake, they will do nothing to help you. However, is you take the feedback positively, admit your mistakes, they will go that extra mile to help you out. As far as skills, I've seen some people who ace the written exams get into the sim and have a very hard time applying the rules to the radar. They get into the sim and find they can't do the job, whether its identifying conflicts, solvings conflicts, or the challenge of multi tasking. Some of these things can be fixed with practice and some cannot. Even thought the instructors will try a help you (attitude permitting), the "one thing" the Nav Canada training program does not have is patience. You'll get your chance to improve, but it is not a long one. This just adds to the stress.

The floor is an entirely different beast altogether. It moves alot faster than the sim, real world traffic is different than sim traffic, and you'll a pile of requests from pilots or other controllers that you have to deal with that you have not seen before. You are expected to deal with these scenarios with a little help from your OJI (in the beginning, near the end you are on your own). Attitude on the floor is most important. Due to scheduling (holidays, sick days, etc) you will work with anywhere from 2 to 14 OJI's (I had 12). Each OJI has a different way of doing things and you will have to adapt to each OJI's style when you are working with them. Otherwise you are going to hear about it and receive some interesting comments on your daily training report. You can argue your point, just be gentle. I'm not saying that you should roll over and be at the mercy of your OJI, just make your point, acknowledge theirs, and move on. At the end of the day, your OJI has a big say in your success. If the other controllers in the specialty don't like you, the system will find a way to get rid of you. This is the toughest part about training, and the most stressful. You'll have plenty of opportunity to develop your own style once you are licensed. Hopefully you get a good OJI (there are some out there) that will let you do your thing and fix your own mistakes (the best way to learn).

No matter how good you are, the training process is one of the most stressful things you'll experience. Keep a positive attitude, work hard, and with a little luck and natural ability you will get a license.

[wenchie]

wow, thank you everyone... I really appreciate your input. I'll go through the messages a little more when I have a little more time to have some thoughtful questions/statements...

The reason I asked these questions is because I'm taking a huge risk. I didn't think I was a risk taker. I feel like I need to leave my current job in health care, I'm so unhappy. I'm willing to give it up at the risk of not having anything at the end.

I'll preface by saying, I'm aware there are woman working in ATC....Do you think that as a woman, in what seems to be a male dominated industry, I'll have a more difficult time getting through? My fear is similar to one of which women deal with in the corporate type of situation. I don't want to be judged by my gender and not given a serious shot...because I'd be entering some kind of exclusive man cave.

I don't lack solid worth ethic or commitment. I'm ancient (30 )) and willing to give it 100%. Whether I make it through or not, I'm willing to take the risk for this dream.

[kevenv]

I'll preface by saying, I'm aware there are woman working in ATC....Do you think that as a woman, in what seems to be a male dominated industry, I'll have a more difficult time getting through? My fear is similar to one of which women deal with in the corporate type of situation. I don't want to be judged by my gender and not given a serious shot...because I'd be entering some kind of exclusive man cave.

I don't lack solid worth ethic or commitment. I'm ancient (30 )) and willing to give it 100%. Whether I make it through or not, I'm willing to take the risk for this dream.

Being a woman will not affect your success at all in training. Of course it won't help you either. If you can control airplanes to the level required, you will get a license. Period. If you can't control airplanes to the level required, you won't get a license. Period. 30 years old is nothing so don't worry about it affecting your training. Ability is the number one requirement. Followed by how well you get along with your co workers. Rob and Parrot summed it up quite nicely. Read carefully what they have told you, accept that there are a lot of people not able to do this job and then jump in and give it everything you have. If you are successful it is an awesome career. Good luck

[hydro]

I'll preface by saying, I'm aware there are woman working in ATC....Do you think that as a woman, in what seems to be a male dominated industry, I'll have a more difficult time getting through? My fear is similar to one of which women deal with in the corporate type of situation. I don't want to be judged by my gender and not given a serious shot...because I'd be entering some kind of exclusive man cave.

I don't lack solid worth ethic or commitment. I'm ancient (30 )) and willing to give it 100%. Whether I make it through or not, I'm willing to take the risk for this dream.

I'll echo kevenv's comments, gender and age was irrelevant. Of the people who've gone through recently at my centre, success rates were similar for males and females. There are plenty of students in the the 25-30 age range, and older trainees have been successful too.

[wenchie]

Rob and Parrot summed it up quite nicely. Read carefully what they have told you, accept that there are a lot of people not able to do this job and then jump in and give it everything you have. If you are successful it is an awesome career. Good luck

That's what I plan on doing. Thanks for the kind words.

Thanks everyone for your insight, it's greatly appreciated...and I've read it a couple times already!

ETA: I just noticed in my last post I wrote worth ethic, clearly this was meant to say work ethic.

[ahramin]

Just imagine if we licensed pilots the same way.

Can't do 100% of the flight test well, CT. Those that need 2 or 3 kicks at the can each time wouldn't get past first base.

[Shadowfax]

Just imagine if we licensed pilots the same way.

Can't do 100% of the flight test well, CT. Those that need 2 or 3 kicks at the can each time wouldn't get past first base.

ATC doesn't do their assesments in an all or nothing 1 hour shot. Assesments are made over many many days and all throughout training at various milestones and yes - they do have "supplemental" periods and multiple trys to meet standard throughout.

Someone once told me the average IFR ATC license costs upward of $500,000 - with that much invested the company wouldn't reasonably axe someone unless they are certain there is no hope (in theory at least ) ATC is a bit of an oddball profession in regards to training - TC license totally administered by the employer who foots all the training costs, but ultimately decided by other license holders who aren't designated FTE's.

[ahramin]

What I mean is that an ATC needs to be able to show 100% proficiency consistently before they are licensed. Many pilots make their way through the system without being able to do that.

[Shadowfax]

What???!!!???

Never happens - all pilots are 100% to standard at all times

http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/mayday/#clip435293

Watch to the end and see what they say about the Captain

[wenchie]

Just an update that I wrote the assessment on Wednesday. I definitely walked out more stressed than I walked in. I think it was the time crunch that was intense. I found the w-sim portion the easiest, personally. It could just be in my own head, too. Just waiting for results which should be in end of next week or early the following week.

Also, they're pretty much giving everyone who passes the assessment the first interview because they are in need, at the moment.

[wenchie]

Update: I didn't pass the written assessment. I felt like I did really well but I guess that's how these tests go, right? Anyways, thanks for all previous words of encouragement!