Air France Flight 447 update

[Chaxterium]

Hi Panama,

Thanks for that link. That is extremely interesting. I've only ever flown de Havilland products so I have no knowledge of Normal Law vs Aternate Law etc. My apologies if this is a little off topic but when reading through the Flare mode in Normal law it states:

-System memorizes pitch attitude at 50' and begins to progressively reduce pitch, forcing pilot to flare the aircraft.

Is this saying that the aircraft actually begins to pitch down at 50'? Just seems odd to me. Is this simply so the pilot doesn't forget to flare? Once again I appreciate the link.

Cheers,
Chax

[NovaBoy]

From what I have read in previous reports this flight entered an area of severe thunderstorms, the same area that other aircraft had diverted around. This may not be a simple I've lost airspeed, accidentally stalling the aircraft and being unable to recover. If this all happened after they had penetrated a large thunderstorm, recovery may have not been possible, no matter what inputs were made by the pilots. Plus stalling a large airliner like 330 ain't like stalling a 172.

Don't go hanging these guys yet, wait for the full report.

I do agree that pilots in general are losing our hand flying skills and relying on automation way too much, I know I'm one of them. Unfortunately training facilities and even certain company SOP's go against hand flying now.

[Hawkerflyer]

I would agree with the general sentiment to not judge until you've walked a mile...it's one thing to recover a stall when you're getting a clear indication of one, another when it isn't so clear with conflicting information. When you lose a portion or the whole pitot/static system it really is horrific. It's one thing to say "oh he pitched up against the stall warning", but who knows if the stall warning was even valid at that time? And since when is Richard Quest an aviation expert, I thought he was CNN's financial guru...("Quest Means Business") or does he just kinda do it all? I'd wait for the full analysis of the data.

All I know is I've been given a similar scenario in the sim - loss of pitot/static info (simulated volcanic ash encounter - you also flame out both engines and get cargo fire warnings), with all kinds of erroneous displays resulting, and it isn't pretty. It's one thing to correctly interpret your instruments, it's another when multiple ones are feeding you false information. Stressful in a simulator, a nightmare in the a/c.

Comparing it to the crash in Buffalo isn't correct in my opinion, their instruments were working fine.

+1

I think the majority of people on this forum believe we use Microsoft FS2000 as a training aid.
Lets not forget this monster they were dealing with(below). Makes one wonder, if the systems were working, would "Windshear,Windshear" have also been heard on the audio playback? What does one do when caught in a severe downdraft with faulty systems? Lets not judge these poor bastards.

[Hawkerflyer]

I do agree that pilots in general are losing our hand flying skills and relying on automation way too much, I know I'm one of them. Unfortunately training facilities and even certain company SOP's go against hand flying now.

Don't discredit yourself friend. I suspect you got to where you are for a reason as with most guys here. Plus, one cant fly above FL28 or below FL410 without automation.

[Salt]

I find it curious that Angle of Attack information is not available to the pilots in this particular aircraft (as stated in the interim report). A good read on AoA systems can be found here:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... story.html

In a situation where primary air data inputs were suspect, an AoA indicator could have been the lifeline that the crew needed. Maintaining a "flying" AoA and TO/GA thrust, in reference to attitude displays could have allowed them to stabalize the aircraft and given them time to sort out the various false data inputs they were recieving. Even in the event that they were actually inside a major downdraft of a large cell, referencing an AoA indicator would have helped keep the aircraft flying, rather than on the backend of a deep stall. I know this is simply quarterbacking an event that has already occured, but I'm curious why a proper AoA indicator (not just the system reference to the stick shaker/pusher and speed tapes) is not standard system on this class of aircraft? Any input?

[baron_dude]

Just a quick question....and it might be a rather dumb one.....Why would the Pitot tubes get iced up on this plane? No pitot heat? or is it just not enough heat to prevent icing at high altitude?

[Posthumane]

Interesting info about the Airbus control laws. I can see why changing control laws can be necessary in various situations to provide some level of redundancy and protection when systems fail, but OTOH I imagine in an already stressful situation it could add further to the confusion. Consider for a minute that an Airbus pilot may be used to flying in Normal Law where the stick deflection is proportional to load factor, and has a limitation placed on it. In a situation where you need to make a change in direction in a hurry, full stick deflection to produce max load factor is a reasonable response. Now, say you find yourself at night in heavy turbulence with a barrage of warnings and false indications, it may be hard to instantly make the connection between what control law you are in and what the result of various stick deflections will be.

I'm with the people who say we shouldn't hang the pilots on this one, at least before the full report comes out. It's not a simple case of the pilot pulling the wrong way during a stall simply because he was not properly trained/experienced/whatever.

[Panama Jack]

Is this saying that the aircraft actually begins to pitch down at 50'? Just seems odd to me. Is this simply so the pilot doesn't forget to flare? Once again I appreciate the link.

If it didn't do this then landing the Airbus in Normal Law would be extremely difficult if not impossible, as in Normal Law the aircraft will do the control inputs to maintain the attitude (both pitch and bank). In other words, point it at a certain nose up/down and bank angle, let go, and the aircraft will continue to keep that even with speed changes.

The Flare Mode gives the Airbus a "natural" feel like flaring any other aircraft. Reading the Laws makes it all sound complicated but the aircraft is a delight to fly and easier than traditional aircraft.

Going into "Alternate Law" or even "Direct Law" is a part and parcel of any simulator training event and is often associated with significant system malfunction. All of these pilots have flown in Alternate Law before, if not in real life then in the simulator.

Automation has, in fact, helped improve the overall Commercial aviation safety record. However, and without intending to hang the pilots, it is fair to say that paradoxially, flying skills have degraded as a result of complex automation. That is a fact, and as of the last couple years the airlines are starting to wake up this latent threat.

[Conquest Driver]

If this was a Pitot/Static problem, it would be the second fatal crash of a large airliner over the last few years for that reason.

What about an alternative speed/altitude system based on GPS. I'm suspecting the pilots very much knew something was wrong, but couldn't figure out what it was. A simple manual GPS readout would have given them a groundspeed of around 120 knots. That certainly isn't an overspeed, and might have lead them into a stall recovery.

[MUSKEG]

I have a healthy respect for thunderstorms and I imagine the crew did to but it appears they entered a severe storm. Could the airspeed indications have been right? I know they lost 200 k or so almost instantly and am wondering if they got caught in severe rotation and just flew into a ripping tailwind. I have no experience up there nor in that area. One other observation. The aircraft desended nose high for three and a half minutes in a stall and never rolled on it's back. Someone up front had some skill or was at least aware of the roll at yaw attitudes. Or was that luck? Fire away.

[frog]

With those kind of failure you could end up with the clacker and the shaker at the same time...now which one is right ?

Specially when you think of a plane in at least moderate turbulences...which would be some distraction...

Also a pitot blockage could reveal it self by a indicated airspeed disagree indication...again which one is the good one ?

And of course when the plane flies in smooth air without speed or altitude change nothing would happen even if the pitot tube is iced up, but if turbulences occur...

So again I would be prudent regarding statement on the pilots skills.

[mbav8r]

I think it's highly probable, if you consider they were in or very near severe weather and no valid speed indications, an assumption was made that the aircraft was in a severe downdraft and they were likely trying to arrest the descent, explaining the power and pitch. I don't know the Airbus systems or generally considered safe airspeeds, but 120 knots GS could be 160 IAS or 80 IAS depending on the wind. There doesn't appear to be any sign of incipient spin from the limited info available, so I'm guessing they thought it was a downdraft and not a stall, but that is just a guess and in no way a judgement on the event. One thing I know for certain is that was a very bad situation and I hope we are able to gain valuable lessons from it, to prevent future accidents.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

A plane crashes, people die, and this thread about it turns into personal attacks. You should be ashamed of yourselves. It stops now or the thread will be locked. show some respect towards the families of those who passed.

Agreed. But heaven forbid that attitude is distributed equally among all members.

Lets try my original post again :

Why did the PF not realize that he was nose up ... and stalling ... for 3 minutes? i think that is the best question. I find there is quite a bit of contradictory information (pilot was aware / pilot was not aware). Full power and yet "nose up". That to me is mind boggling and I hope there is more to this than "pilot error".

[grimey]

And since when is Richard Quest an aviation expert, I thought he was CNN's financial guru...("Quest Means Business") or does he just kinda do it all? I'd wait for the full analysis of the data.

Do they still have Rally Caparas doing reports on air traffic delays? The guy's an ATC with the FAA, surely he'd be a better pick than Quest, or at least far less annoying. He'd at least be familiar with NTSB reports and whatnot, and not jump to stupid conclusions.

I know one of their previous "aviation experts" got the job because he was the guy in the office that had a PPL.

Really, though, how hard would it be to find a retired accident investigator or airline captain for these things?

[fish4life]

Thanks for the post about the different "Law's" the fly by wire systems goes into it definitely helps. Nose up and high power does seem a lot like a wind shear recovery, it will be interesting to see the final report though. As for the flight data recorders, does one take it's data from ADC 1 and the other from ADC 2?, thus how would investigators figure out which one is telling the truth?

[YCL Boy]

Folks,
How can anybody here or any other forum know what may have happened during that tragic night or what the pilot's were thinking?
The BEA has 100% of the data from the CVR/FDR, they listened to it probably hundreds of time if not more, wait a couple of weeks for the full report to be released.
I understand perfectly question about the system on the A330, FBW and Normal VS Alternate laws and so on, they can be answered by many qualified pilot's here.

The only official information is from the BEA, not from Popular Mechanic or the likes of Cpt Mike Doerr whoever he may be ???

Here is the link:
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af. ... f.447.phpà

[nutbutter]

If this was a Pitot/Static problem, it would be the second fatal crash of a large airliner over the last few years for that reason.

What about an alternative speed/altitude system based on GPS. I'm suspecting the pilots very much knew something was wrong, but couldn't figure out what it was. A simple manual GPS readout would have given them a groundspeed of around 120 knots. That certainly isn't an overspeed, and might have lead them into a stall recovery.

This
First thing I do (and it happens naturally), with a failed instrument is start looking for another source of the same information. Is there not a GS indication clearly visible in the Airbus?

[ahramin]

The groundspeed is unfortunately not very helpful. The difference between overspeed and stall can be far less than the difference between airspeed and groundspeed.

For example, if the groundspeed says 350 knots are they into the bricks or stalled?

[55+]

I would agree with the general sentiment to not judge until you've walked a mile...it's one thing to recover a stall when you're getting a clear indication of one, another when it isn't so clear with conflicting information. When you lose a portion or the whole pitot/static system it really is horrific. It's one thing to say "oh he pitched up against the stall warning", but who knows if the stall warning was even valid at that time? And since when is Richard Quest an aviation expert, I thought he was CNN's financial guru...("Quest Means Business") or does he just kinda do it all? I'd wait for the full analysis of the data.

All I know is I've been given a similar scenario in the sim - loss of pitot/static info (simulated volcanic ash encounter - you also flame out both engines and get cargo fire warnings), with all kinds of erroneous displays resulting, and it isn't pretty. It's one thing to correctly interpret your instruments, it's another when multiple ones are feeding you false information. Stressful in a simulator, a nightmare in the a/c.

Comparing it to the crash in Buffalo isn't correct in my opinion, their instruments were working fine.

+1

I think the majority of people on this forum believe we use Microsoft FS2000 as a training aid.
Lets not forget this monster they were dealing with(below). Makes one wonder, if the systems were working, would "Windshear,Windshear" have also been heard on the audio playback? What does one do when caught in a severe downdraft with faulty systems? Lets not judge these poor bastards.

Big question is why they would fly through an area of severe WX as depicted when other airplanes were deviating and more to the point shouldn't the captain been upfront monitoring the situation as one would assume the crew were aware of likely convective activity and needless to say could paint it on the wx radar. Why were junior pilots left to manage the situation......

[Oor Wullie]

+1

[daedalusx]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 64,00.html

Exactly what orders he issued are not part of last Friday's report. But sources close to the investigation are saying that he said: "This is a stall. Reduce power and nose down!"

Very interesting. I sure hope we get the uncensored CVR.

[Panama Jack]

Guys,

We will never know what exactly was going through the pilot's mind or whether it was rational or not. I have heard fellow pilots cook up some pretty weird theories in the past so anything is possible.

As for Windshear, sorry, there is no such thing as Windshear recoveries at FL350.

To give you a little background on how the windshear detection function works on an A330, it is only provided during takeoff and landing when:

1) At Takeoff, 3 seconds after liftoff up to 1300 feet Radar Altimeter
2) During Landing, from 1300 feet Radar Altimeter to 50 feet Radar Altimeter
3) With at least Config 1 selected.

Source: Airbus A330 FCOM 1.22.40

So I have my doubts on whether the pilot flying was attempting to do a Windshear recovery. If he was, it would have been an inappropriate action and would have displayed a fundamental misunderstanding of Airbus systems and operating techniques so I give them the benefit of the doubt by saying it is highly unlikely.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Quite amazing, they have recovered at least 70 more bodies from the wreckage. Lets hope this can ratify closure for most of the families involved.

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Today is the 2nd Anniversary. RIP to all involved

[Jastapilot]

Lets not judge these poor bastards.

This photo says it all for me. What the F were they even doing there in the first place? These storms aren't your run-of-the-mill prairie storms! These storms top out as high as the cruising altitude of the U2 for Christ's sake!

The lack of airmanship that led to this disaster makes me sick to my stomach. These guys were the first and last link in the accident chain.