Guys like this make me sick.

[ahramin]

Right off the bat I've got to say that I don't mind nor would deny Quebecers their right to speak French.
With that said, however, the thing that really ticks me off is the ATC/pilot French interactions on ATC frequencies when operating in Quebec airspace...it automatically cuts a bunch of people out of the loop (American and foreign carriers, as well as anglophone Canadians) with a partial loss of situational awareness...totally unsafe.

Dave, with that very old argument it sounds like you would very much like to deny Quebecers the right to speak in French on the air. Anyone remember the pilot strike in the 70s due to this very issue? That whole episode led to the rise of the Bloc Quebecois. Was anyone here sorry to see them get decimated at the polls last time? Would we like to start a war with Quebec again over this issue and have a resurgence of the Bloc?

Keeping in mind that in the history of the world, this "totally unsafe" practice has never caused a single accident.

Having said all that I do find French speaking pilots who insist on speaking French even when they are international pilots and are perfectly capable of speaking English on the radio to be somewhat unprofessional. As above, choose your battles.

[navajo_jay]

I'm french Canadian born and raised in Quebec city, and I'm tired of all that bullshit. I just feel ashamed of being Quebeckian like my nephew says. If Quebec ever separates from the rest of Canada, a lot of people will leave this province I tell you. Politicians just make up bullshit and this province is going nowhere. Just look how bad the roads are. Bridges are falling. Everybody is fighting against each other and projects takes 20 years to start, like the hockey arenas, etc. They are arrogant and than ask money from Ottawa because we are broke.

That guy is an idiot but it looks like any reason was good for him to sue Air Canada and get some money anyways.

I needed to vent

Cheers!

[sepia]

Right off the bat I've got to say that I don't mind nor would deny Quebecers their right to speak French.
With that said, however, the thing that really ticks me off is the ATC/pilot French interactions on ATC frequencies when operating in Quebec airspace...it automatically cuts a bunch of people out of the loop (American and foreign carriers, as well as anglophone Canadians) with a partial loss of situational awareness...totally unsafe.

Dave, with that very old argument it sounds like you would very much like to deny Quebecers the right to speak in French on the air. Anyone remember the pilot strike in the 70s due to this very issue? That whole episode led to the rise of the Bloc Quebecois. Was anyone here sorry to see them get decimated at the polls last time? Would we like to start a war with Quebec again over this issue and have a resurgence of the Bloc?

Keeping in mind that in the history of the world, this "totally unsafe" practice has never caused a single accident.

Having said all that I do find French speaking pilots who insist on speaking French even when they are international pilots and are perfectly capable of speaking English on the radio to be somewhat unprofessional. As above, choose your battles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDFY5qlTSA


Watch that video. Now picture that exact same scenario playing out in low vis in Montreal. The same FedEX guys who use fantastic decision making are now taken totally out of the loop because they can't understand the discussion between YUL atc and the crew that's wandered into the active runway in french. All the contrite bullshit about the accident has never happened before "in the history of the world" doesn't mean anything anymore. For the sake of speaking a different language when you're fully capable of speaking another that other people understand, allowing them to double check your work all seems a bit stupid now doesn't it?

[TeePeeCreeper]

Septia,

Although I agree with the fact that the man behind the lawsuits is going overboard, I do think that Francophones have a right to be served in their native tongue. That's a right and not a priviledge...

As for the redundant issue which seems to plague AvCanada( re: French being used to communicate with ATC)
If there was such a serious threat to safety, why haven't we seen accidents which were the result of the french language being used by pilots and ATC in the province of Quebec?
I find it sad that some Anglohone pilots feel the need to bring up "oh but there could be an accident" when in all reality, they are just pissed off that the world dosent revolve around them...

Regards
TPC

[sepia]

Septia,

Although I agree with the fact that the man behind the lawsuits is going overboard, I do think that Francophones have a right to be served in their native tongue. That's a right and not a priviledge...

As for the redundant issue which seems to plague AvCanada( re: French being used to communicate with ATC)
If there was such a serious threat to safety, why haven't we seen accidents which were the result of the french language being used by pilots and ATC in the province of Quebec?
I find it sad that some Anglohone pilots feel the need to bring up "oh but there could be an accident" when in all reality, they are just pissed off that the world dosent revolve around them...

Regards
TPC

1. It's sepia.
2. I said nothing about frivolous lawsuits.
3. Did you watch that video? It has absolutely nothing to do with my perception that the world doesn't revolve around me. It has absolutely everything to do with the fact that taking people out of the loop, and removing their ability to build a mental picture is LESS SAFE than allowing them in the loop. I'm all for speaking mandrin or french or whatever you please when your entire listening audience is able to understand it too. The moment you start taking people out of the equation is where I have a problem with it.

[vic777]

I do think that Francophones have a right to be served in their native tongue. That's a right and not a priviledge...

You're 100% wrong. Do Native Canadians have a right to be served in their Native tongue? No. It's only a measure of Political Clout, it has nothing to do with rights.

[oh yeah baby]

It s sad to see that you guys did not realise that Japan, China, Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, Austria, all the caraibeen, south america and even England speak their own language on top of english over the air... No accident ever reported regarding this issue or complain have ever come up by the international carrier.... Franckly nobody gives a shit about it...


This is purely an western canadian concept that goes against a worldwide opinion...

Sad really sad

[vic777]

this "totally unsafe" practice has never caused a single accident.

I don't know about that, but I do know that if Quebec Airport ever gets busy with any traffic, the language problem probably will cause a fatality.

[Fanblade]

It s sad to see that you guys did not realise that Japan, China, Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, Austria, all the caraibeen, south america and even England speak their own language on top of english over the air... No accident ever reported regarding this issue or complain have ever come up by the international carrier.... Franckly nobody gives a shit about it...


This is purely an western canadian concept that goes against a worldwide opinion...

Sad really sad

What he said. Anyone who fly's outside of Canada knows that multiple languages on the radio is the norm. Not the exception. Not so much in Europe but pretty much everywhere else.

Once you cross the US MX boarder most radio chatter is Spanish.

[oh yeah baby]

Vic what is your point

Are you saying that quebec makes exception to the rest of the world and that we should nt use 2 language at the same time to prevent accident??? if so read me previous post..

If you are still convince it means that you are unable to follow your own clareance like the rest of the international pilot and your aptitude are below the average pilot. Even worst, you think you are smart enough to built a mental picture of all the airplane around you without radar info... You would land in Charles de gaule, Shiphol, Narita, Frankfurt etc and overide a controller clearance without TCAS alert because you know what is going on.. if so you are a hazard to safety and TC should write your licence off...


Vic777 i m betting 2$ that you are not flying a 777 under 10000ft... and its a good thing.


now enough of this shit and lets get back to that dum ass and his 12000$

[accumulous]

If you are still convince it means that you are unable to follow your own clareance like the rest of the international pilot and your aptitude are below the average pilot.

You have got to be kidding - You think for one second that somebody in a foreign language didn't just inform ATC they were deviating for traffic and you didn't hear it in your language and ATC doesn't have time to respond to you because now they've got a little bit of a chain reaction going on?

If I take a couple of hundred passengers into a control zone where they're speaking a language I don't understand I request they speak English or I'm taking a couple of hundred passengers somewhere else until they get everybody on the same page.

If ATC is talking to somebody in a language you don't understand and if you don't ask ATC what they just said and to whom did they say it, you are plain and simple rolling the dice on 200 passengers. It's easy - just ask them how your separation is doing in English and they'll answer you in English. Failure to take that step is irresponsible. Period.

ICAO:

English is Now the Mandated International Language of Aviation

The International Civil Aviation Organization has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology.

This has important implications for all aircrew and controllers. Those who do not have proficiency must acquire it by that date or risk removal from international flight routes.

[Panama Jack]

I wonder if you can demand to be served in French on the new YUL - DOH flights... lol.

Probably not "demand" it, but you can expect it. Moroccan girls (not my thing, just saying though)!

As far as the misconception that local languages are widely spoken by local pilots in other parts of the World, I have not found that to be so (at least not in the high-level IFR structure), with the exception of Latin America where a huge problem exists with many pilots not even knowing English. Of the places that I have flown:

Europe-- practically all of it English with the exception of France and Greece
Turkey-- English and Turkish spoken
Middle East (Arabic countries)-- 100% English spoken with the exception of when guys are giving a shot-out to their "habibi"
Iran-- English only, even by the Iranians
Pakistan-- English only
India-- English only . . . sometimes overly-wordy English
Bangladesh-- English only
Myanmar-- English only
Thailand-- English only-- roughly 50% of it by very cute-sounding female controllers.
Cambodia-- English only
Vietnam-- English only
Malaysia-- English only
China-- OK, complicated country with English and Mandarin spoken, Metric altitudes with the China RVSM Flight Level Allocation Scheme (pull out your chart), military controlled airspace . . . and thats only the beginning of the problem. But are we looking for role models here?

[vic777]

Vic what is your point

Quebec City Airport is fundamentally an unsafe Airport and eventually fatalities will result from their two language policy. (The relatives of the killed passengers should be able to sue the Government for far more than $12,000)

[Fanblade]

accumulous wrote:

If I take a couple of hundred passengers into a control zone where they're speaking a language I don't understand I request they speak English or I'm taking a couple of hundred passengers somewhere else until they get everybody on the same page.

Vic777 wrote:

Quebec City Airport is fundamentally an unsafe Airport and eventually fatalities will result from their two language policy. (The relatives of the killed passengers should be able to sue the Government for far more than $12,000)

Are you two Air Canada pilots? It would appear from your comments (these are just a few) neither of you have flown into Montreal, Ottawa, Quebec City or through the province of Quebec? Nor South of the US MX boarder or through airspace in Turkey, China, Russia ect ect ect? I don't know of any AC pilots that fly aircraft with a few hundred people on board that stay solely in western Canada or the US. You have me scratching my head with some of your comments.

I accept there is increased safety in a listening watch. Got my ass saved in KSEA years ago for it. If the other aircraft had been cleared for takeoff in a foreign language I wouldn't be typing right now. However I also understand that speaking Spanish in South America is probably a safety increase as it is clear some have a lot of issues with english. Controllers and pilots alike. IOW more errors may happen if you force people to operate in a second language. It is simply not an easy fix.

The same can happen in Quebec with a Francophone pilot going into Montreal. If he doesn't understand English well? I'd rather the controller deal with him in French. It is safer.

What is going on in Quebec/Ottawa airspace is not unique. It happens all over the world. I will correct myself. It happens in a large part of the world. MEX is for example the largest City in the western hemisphere. 5th largest in the word. The terminal is 2 miles long. You get the idea. It is big and busy. English and Spanish.

[accumulous]

What is going on in Quebec/Ottawa airspace is not unique. It happens all over the world. I will correct myself. It happens in a large part of the world. MEX is for example the largest City in the western hemisphere. 5th largest in the word. The terminal is 2 miles long. You get the idea. It is big and busy. English and Spanish.

This is getting unnecessarily complicated. Vic is saying essentially that you’ll have multilingual transactions taking place in a control zone until you get an almighty mid-air collision and the pieces wind up over 10 square miles. Then it’ll be unilingual from that point on after they play back the transcripts and you hear ‘Oh Shit’ in 2 different languages. If you think it’s okay to sit there and ‘guess’ what’s going on around you, have at it. The only point being made is that if you’re into dense multilingual airspace and you’re not asking the question – how’s my separation, then you’re just guessing. It’s free, just ask.
Don’t listen to the pilots – call the Controllers at Chicago and they’ve got airplanes coming from all over the world where they speak 50 different languages. Ask the Chicago boys – “Hey- how come you guys only communicate in 1 language – mind if we speak French”? Your next clearance will be 180 degrees from the one you just got.

[BTyyj]

My high school history is a bit rusty but I believe......

Canada the nation is officially bilingual. So all Federal gov't services.

Only one province is officially bilingual. That would be New Brunswick.

All other provinces are unilingual. English or French. Quebec is unilingual French.

I think the territories come under Canada as officially bilingual but don't remember for sure.

This is the jist of it. Our fore fathers entered into an agreement with Quebec during confederation as did every other province. That means natural resource rights. Hydro rights. language rights. ect. A deal is a deal is a deal

With that said when the gov't of Canada privatized AC the official languages act should have been severed from applying since it was no longer federally owned and controlled.

Who am I blaming? The liberals and every gov't since the privatization of AC. They did it for political optics. No one will touch it since. Why? Political optics. Look at the mess. Not just for AC but for the whole French vs English relationship.

Go look at the globe and mail comments to see what I mean.

Keep your criticism squarely on the cause of the problem. And squarely on those vested with the ability to fix it.

This isn't this gentleman's fault. It may seem over the top (and I totally agree) but he is just demanding the rights this country has afforded him. If you think the rights are over the top then blame those who created the problem. Not those expecting the law to be upheld.

12K is a drop in the bucket for what the official languages act costs AC. Maybe this 12k is well spent if it generates some people to stop and think for a moment. AC is going to provide French service from MSP? Mumbai? San Paulo? Of course the problem is systemic. It is not possible.

Rant over.

Maybe you should be the advisor to Air Canada's lawyer next time.

BTW, this is why I can never see myself becoming a lawyer. I would probably shoot myself after realizing 98% of the world is full of morons; the last 2% are mostly pilots

[vic777]

the last 2% are mostly pilots

So you're saying the world has over 139 Million Pilots?

[Jastapilot]

I called the police...he must love me.

Ok, I'll bite, since no one else will. Why did you call the police? What did this guy do onboard your aircraft

[Bajan Pilot]

He was creating a disturbance.

[Jastapilot]

He was creating a disturbance.

Can you elaborate? Was he violent? threatening violence? Verbally abusive? Profanity?

[BTyyj]

the last 2% are mostly pilots

So you're saying the world has over 139 Million Pilots?

"Mostly", as in the most common job of the non-moron 2% group.

[FurHat]

Septia,

Although I agree with the fact that the man behind the lawsuits is going overboard, I do think that Francophones have a right to be served in their native tongue. That's a right and not a priviledge...

Wait...if it is their right, why aren't all Canadian carriers forced to have french-speaking flight attendants on board?

[Fanblade]

Septia,

Although I agree with the fact that the man behind the lawsuits is going overboard, I do think that Francophones have a right to be served in their native tongue. That's a right and not a priviledge...

Wait...if it is their right, why aren't all Canadian carriers forced to have french-speaking flight attendants on board?

Repeated:

At the federal level everyone in this country has the right to be served in either official language. The official languages Act.

At the provincial or municipal level, with a few exceptions, this right does not exist. So English in Quebec is a privilege not a right. French in Alberta is a privilege not a right.

Air Canada being a former Federal Crown corporation was bound by the official languages Act. When the gov't of Canada divested itself of the airline during deregulation the Air Canada participation Act was created. The Air Canada participation Act puts a bunch of requirements on Air Canada that do not apply to anyone else.

One of those requirements is that Air Canada must abide by the Official languages Act. So for all intense purposes French service at AC is a right. French service at Westjet is a privilege.

Why? Because that is what the law says. Unless the law changes it will continue.

[Jastapilot]

The 'federal' law does require that cabin and safety announcements are in both languages. But it makes good business sense to hire bilingual Fa's once they started flying into quebec

[Les Habitants]

While part of me goes "This is ridiculous, Let's blow up Quebec!" I stop to think and realize this guy would probably try and find a reason to sue Air Canada even if he was not French. He is merely just playing the French card; Using being French as leverage to get money. There's people that will sue for any reason. But I can tell you this, If I go to Quebec and don't get service in English, I sure won't be suing anyone anytime soon.

Props to the other Quebecers who came out on here and called this guy out-sure wish some people would do it publicly.