Guys like this make me sick.

[Norwegianwood]

As for Quebec, I was there a while back and was in an "outside Montreal" store and asked the clerk if she could speak english?

The answere was "if you can't speak French, what are you doing in Quebec"??????

Should I sue????

Makes me want to go back in a big hurry, NOT!!!

[ex-NWT]

Keeping in mind that in the history of the world, this "totally unsafe" practice has never caused a single accident.

Definitely a big factor:
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2000/f-ed000 ... 0525a.html
"The use of two languages for radio communications, which meant that the Shorts crew were not conscious that the MD 83 was going to take off"

It s sad to see that you guys did not realise that Japan, China, Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, Austria, all the caraibeen, south america and even England speak their own language on top of english over the air... No accident ever reported regarding this issue or complain have ever come up by the international carrier.... Franckly nobody gives a shit about it...
This is purely an western canadian concept that goes against a worldwide opinion...

http://www.eurocontrol.int/safety/galle ... ations.pdf
"About half of the population of survey respondents (160, 47%) commented on the problem of non-standard phraseology. In the suggestions related to this topic many pilots have noted their experiences in the United States of America, South America, Africa and the Far East (the majority of the pilots participating in the survey flew long-haul routes). With respect to the situation in Europe pilots remark that most problems occur in countries like Italy, France, Spain and Greece, where controllers speak also in the local language. Radio communication requires standardisation to prevent mistakes and misunderstandings. Most recommendations mentioned in the survey are therefore in the field of R/T communication skills and practise, like better radio discipline, stick to standard phraseology, better training, use a single language only (English)"


It is a permanent complaint/request from companies and organizations to only use English.

I fly over Algiers quite a bit and find it a bit annoying when I hear the aircraft call up in french and all following communications are in french.
South America where the controllers are difficult to understand at best, garbled frequencies, repeater stations. China and Russia- not a clue what is going on around you. Standard practise in China is ATC instructing aircraft to fly 2-3 miles offset

Franckly nobody gives a shit about it...

Frankly, I don't know anybody flying long haul that doesn't.

As for getting 12k in a lawsuit ....sigh
maybe these things should be limited to a maximum compensation, like 2 free tickets
lawsuits in North America are a bit out of control, but that is a different subject.

[vic777]

Makes me want to go back in a big hurry, NOT!!!

Hard to believe but back in the late Sixties Montreal was the most dynamic City in Canada ... Then came Trudeau et al, Quebecers have been paying ever since.

[Jastapilot]

He was creating a disturbance.

Can you elaborate? Was he violent? threatening violence? Verbally abusive? Profanity?

I think I know what happened. The silence speaks volumes.

[DrBoeing]

Just thought of something, do I have the right to be served in english while in Quebec? I have been a few times and you want to talk about arrogance. Maybe I'll launch a frivolous lawsuit next time I'm in Quebec and can't get served in english, 500,000 should do it!

In Montreal you would have no problem being served in english.

Outside of Montreal though, it's another story. The thing is, outside of Montreal, not everybody speaks english.

When I started for Jazz I was based in Calgary and the first time I went there I was absolutely astonished to see french indications everywhere at the airport. Even french messages on the loudspeaker.

I think the key concept here is common sense. One has to realize that in this country, there is two official languages and you can not be served in your preferred language 100% of the time.

I think you can not expect perfect bilingual service in a national airline, because not everybody speaks french. No matter how much effort the company puts in, the availability is just not there. We're 30 million in Canada, 5 million speak french, 20 million english, among those a good proportion can speak a little of both, some of us are bilingual and the rest speak neither english or french.

Bullshit!!!!!!! I was born and raised in the west Island and have had many a time where I was not served in English. I have even had merchants tell me square to my face, "en francais, c'est Quebec".
Maybe Mr Thibodeau needs to have the Plains of Abraham plaid out for him to get his brain back in gear.
This guy is nothing more than a French language zealot who will never be happy unless everything is french.

[Solaris]

I think the following editorial from the National Post sums up this ludicrous situation quite well.

Michel Thibodeau needs a case of 7Up and to grow up

Barbara Kay Jul 14, 2011 – 3:42 PM ET | Last Updated: Jul 15, 2011 9:14 AM ET

.
Every now and then, during a slow news cycle, some media outlet will run a story about a fanatic coupon-clipper – almost invariably a housewife with plenty of discretionary time – who triumphantly demonstrates how she ends up with $300 worth of groceries for $19 by the simple expedient of clipping coupons from circulars, or mailing in rebate offers. It’s the kind of “free money” that anyone can have if they put in the time and effort, but when you have an actual “life,” you figure the satisfaction and savings just aren’t worth the tedium and mindless trolling.

Meet Ottawan Michel Thibodeau, the “language rights” equivalent of the compulsive coupon clipper. Instead of haunting supermarkets, he haunts bus companies and airlines, forever on the lookout for an abrogation of his right to hear the station stop, the weather, the time and the altitude in French, whether he is trundling across town or flying over Quebec City, Toronto or Kalamazoo.

On Wednesday the Federal Court of Canada ordered Air Canada to pay Mr Thibodeau $12,000, in part because in 2009, when he asked an English- speaking flight attendant for a 7 Up, he got a Sprite instead. That was only one of many other humiliations suffered by Mr Thibodeau and his wife Lynda in 2009 alone. There were occasions when they were not served in French at airports in Toronto, Ottawa and Atlanta (although they were evidently able to manage in English everywhere else in that town, unless they brought their own interpreter). They also complained about lapses in French-language services aboard Air Canada Jazz flights between Canada and the U.S.

The Thibodeaus know their way around language-rights suits. This is not their first win. When he was refused service in French while ordering a 7 Up on a 2000 Air Ontario flight from Montreal, he filed suit in Federal Court for $525,000 in damages (imagine how painful the sound of the English language must be to demand a half million dollars for suffering). The court ordered the airline to make a formal apology and pay him $5,375.95 – odd number that; maybe it included the price of a 7 UP – which is a far cry from what he asked, but still not a bad day’s take for filling out a form. No wonder it whetted their appetite for more.

Grievance collectors like Mr Thibodeau are the spawn of our rights culture, which supposes that minorities live in a constant state of fear of oppression or discrimination. Our courts are so sensitive to their assumed frailty that they tend to punish even the slightest lapse of vigilance as a way of reassuring them that they are loved.

These guilt payouts are absurd, and will only serve to encourage other ‘coupon-cutter’ copycats to shake down large corporations, which naturally regard the suits as a nuisance they willingly settle for what is to them piddling amounts in order to avoid publicity.

Mr Thibodeau must speak English if he is travelling widely beyond Quebec’s borders for business or pleasure. That wouldn’t be surprising. I am reminded of Norman Lester, an investigative reporter for the French-language CBC, who in 2001 caused an uproar in Montreal when he accused a Jewish General Hospital nurse of speaking to him only in English when he was a patient there. His claim was ridiculous, because he had been conversing with all and sundry at the hospital in fluent English until he decided to score political points with an indictment of one unilingual nurse. (In a book he wrote about Canada, The Black Book of English Canada, Lester viciously accused Canada of every evil under the sun.)

Another irony is that Anglophones in Quebec have very few linguistic rights, and even then such rights are often observed in the breach.

Rights must be tempered with common sense. It is unfortunate for French speakers when services are not available in their language on a flight here and there. But in the real world, stuff happens, and people of good will roll with it. When supermarkets run out of discounted items, they offer disgruntled customers a free product.

Next time Mr Thibodeau tries his little trick, the airlines should offer him a discounted ticket or maybe a case of 7 UP, and if that isn’t good enough and he persists in filing yet another suit, the Federal Court should inform him – in both official languages – that he is wasting their time.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... o-grow-up/
.

[ahramin]

Right off the bat I've got to say that I don't mind nor would deny Quebecers their right to speak French.
With that said, however, the thing that really ticks me off is the ATC/pilot French interactions on ATC frequencies when operating in Quebec airspace...it automatically cuts a bunch of people out of the loop (American and foreign carriers, as well as anglophone Canadians) with a partial loss of situational awareness...totally unsafe.

Dave, with that very old argument it sounds like you would very much like to deny Quebecers the right to speak in French on the air. Anyone remember the pilot strike in the 70s due to this very issue? That whole episode led to the rise of the Bloc Quebecois. Was anyone here sorry to see them get decimated at the polls last time? Would we like to start a war with Quebec again over this issue and have a resurgence of the Bloc?

Keeping in mind that in the history of the world, this "totally unsafe" practice has never caused a single accident.

Having said all that I do find French speaking pilots who insist on speaking French even when they are international pilots and are perfectly capable of speaking English on the radio to be somewhat unprofessional. As above, choose your battles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDFY5qlTSA


Watch that video. Now picture that exact same scenario playing out in low vis in Montreal. The same FedEX guys who use fantastic decision making are now taken totally out of the loop because they can't understand the discussion between YUL atc and the crew that's wandered into the active runway in french. All the contrite bullshit about the accident has never happened before "in the history of the world" doesn't mean anything anymore. For the sake of speaking a different language when you're fully capable of speaking another that other people understand, allowing them to double check your work all seems a bit stupid now doesn't it?

The FedEx example is a good one.

So I suppose in light of the safety case you're going to learn French and Spanish sepia?

[sepia]

I already speak the universal language of aviation. By your logic I should learn mandrin, arabic, etc etc etc too.

I better get a membership with rosetta stone.

[ahramin]

By your logic I should learn mandrin, arabic, etc etc etc too.

I thought the Chinese only spoke English in aviation. Anyone? What about the Arabs? PJ?

I've met lots of people who think speaking French on the radio is very dangerous. I've never met anyone who actually thinks it's dangerous enough to warrant learning French in order to prevent the accident they are worried about though, so how dangerous do they really think it is?

In my experience, 99% of the time people either speak French on the radio, or complain about people speaking French on the radio, it's a completely political statement that has nothing to do with operational or safety reasons.

[sanjet]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/07/27/air- ... t-mistake/

It all started on a flight from Montreal to Ottawa in 2000, when Thibodeau asked to be served a soft drink in la langue de Molière. During the flight, operated by an Air Canada subsidiary, Thibodeau asked the flight attendant for a 7-Up; he was less preoccupied by the drink than the fact that, like the crew announcements, it couldn’t be delivered in French. He asked to speak to the captain, and was refused. A police officer was waiting for him in Ottawa. “That was their biggest mistake,” Thibodeau says today. “I can’t say that none of this would have happened, but if they hadn’t called the police I wouldn’t have been so angry.”

“I wish more francophones would complain when things like this happen to them. If they all did it, things would change in a hurry.”

Im on his side. If he gets treated like that, where does it end.

[DrBoeing]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/07/27/air- ... t-mistake/

It all started on a flight from Montreal to Ottawa in 2000, when Thibodeau asked to be served a soft drink in la langue de Molière. During the flight, operated by an Air Canada subsidiary, Thibodeau asked the flight attendant for a 7-Up; he was less preoccupied by the drink than the fact that, like the crew announcements, it couldn’t be delivered in French. He asked to speak to the captain, and was refused. A police officer was waiting for him in Ottawa. “That was their biggest mistake,” Thibodeau says today. “I can’t say that none of this would have happened, but if they hadn’t called the police I wouldn’t have been so angry.”

“I wish more francophones would complain when things like this happen to them. If they all did it, things would change in a hurry.”

Im on his side. If he gets treated like that, where does it end.

And when stuff like this happens on a daily basis to Anglos in Quebec it is OK?????? This guy is a language zealot and nothing more he speaks both English and French. I can speak French almost as well as I speak English, if I do not get service in English, I do not go into a tizzy and start filing lawsuits. This guy will never be happy until everything in his world in nothing but French. The judge should have tossed the case out on its ass and him along with it.
I am tired of this country being held hostage by the minority of french speakers. I applaud those who speak both languages and make an effort to do so when they realize the person who they are conversing with can not speak one or the other language.
Thibodeau uses his mother tongue as a cash cow for law suits. Maybe this guy should be forced to watch a re-enactment of the plains of Abraham.

[kevind]

I read once that the best thing that ever happend to Quebec was France losing on the Plains of Abraham.

If France won then Quebiec would have been part of the Lousianna Purchase and Montreal would be as french as New Orleans is now.

They should be thanking the English that we beat them. If they won then they would be speaking creole and spanish

[Solaris]

"It's only exacerbating the tensions between our two linguistic communities"

This is part of an interview between political journalist and Sun News contributor Eric Duhaime and Byline Interviewer Brian Lilley.

Please watch the full interview, it is by far the best one I have seen on the subject !!!!!!

http://en.video.canoe.tv/video/news/acr ... 8465294001

[sepia]

By your logic I should learn mandrin, arabic, etc etc etc too.

I thought the Chinese only spoke English in aviation. Anyone? What about the Arabs? PJ?

I've met lots of people who think speaking French on the radio is very dangerous. I've never met anyone who actually thinks it's dangerous enough to warrant learning French in order to prevent the accident they are worried about though, so how dangerous do they really think it is?

In my experience, 99% of the time people either speak French on the radio, or complain about people speaking French on the radio, it's a completely political statement that has nothing to do with operational or safety reasons.

First you say that the providence tape there is a great example. Now you say that it's a political statement, with no regard for safety.

I could care less about politics. I operate into Montreal and Ottawa every month and cringe at the unnecessary stupidity that goes on there.

[Photog]

This language issue is a load of crap.

My Father was born in Montreal (Lachine) and his parents lived on
35th Avenue for most of their lives. I spent many summers there
with my grandparents, on vacation, and came to know most of the people in the local neighbourhood.
We were Anglophone, most of the others were Francophone, but that never seemed
to be a problem. I picked up some of the local French in the process (street French,
not Sorbonne French) and made my way around town quite nicely thank you.
My first real girlfriend was a Francophone gal named Louise (I'm not kidding)
Neither of us spoke the others language enough to make a difference, but that
didn't matter ... we got along fine.
Even stocked shelves at Touin's grocery store one summer ... Try finding something customers ask for
when you aren't quite sure just what it is they want ... but we got along fine.

In my late teen years I lived in France and went to a multinational high school
(Lycee International in Fontainbleau) where we had Canadian style subjects in English
for half the day and French language subjects the other half.

Language was never a problem ...... until the govt rammed French down everyone's throat.
I personally believe that it wasn't the French language that was the issue, it was the
way the government forced everyone to learn it or pay the penalty. This became the problem.
I've always maintained that had the govt started half French/half English in kindergarten in year one,
kindergarten and grade 1 in year 2, add grade 2 in year 3 ..etc. etc. ...in one generation we would have
graduated an entire country full of bilingual citizens. They do this in Europe and most people (especially
from Scandinavian countries) speak at least 2-3 languages.

I'm not sure if any province has legislated English as the only provincial language but
in a country where there are two national languages, by federal mandate, it is quite inconceivable
that one province can abrogate the use of one of those languages in favour of the other.
It's just plain wrong.

In India, English is the national language. They don't have a choice really. With 100's of local dialects
they needed one language to allow communication between all regions of the country. They opted for English, as a holdover from
the days of the British Raj.

In Canada, we didn't have the same problem but mandated two national languages anyway. Fair enough ... but then Quebec decided
they wanted to go against the allowance provided by the federal govt and virtually banned the use of English,
or at least made English the language of second class citizens. That is just plain wrong as well.

For those of you who are virilantly Francophone (or French nationalist) I feel for you.
This could have been handled so much better back in the 60's if Trudeau and the Quebec politicians who came
before and after had exhibited a little bit of foresight and wisdom. Didn't happen ... sorry to say.

And of course we all know .... within any system you are going to find radical lunatics who delight in doing nothing
but exercising their greed and causing problems. This "constant suer" seems to be one of those folks.
After the second time, some judge should have told him to get a grip on reality and shut him down.
Being politically correct has a price to be paid. Too bad it's always those with the least control over the
situation who end up having to pay it.

[vic777]

I've always maintained that had the govt started half French/half English in kindergarten in year one,
kindergarten and grade 1 in year 2, add grade 2 in year 3 ..etc. etc. ...in one generation we would have
graduated an entire country full of bilingual citizens.

Except you miss the whole point of the exercise, it's got nothing to do with bilingualism, the purpose is to create an artificial "job requirement", so that Francophones can qualify for Government jobs.

[ahramin]

By your logic I should learn mandrin, arabic, etc etc etc too.

I thought the Chinese only spoke English in aviation. Anyone? What about the Arabs? PJ?

I've met lots of people who think speaking French on the radio is very dangerous. I've never met anyone who actually thinks it's dangerous enough to warrant learning French in order to prevent the accident they are worried about though, so how dangerous do they really think it is?

In my experience, 99% of the time people either speak French on the radio, or complain about people speaking French on the radio, it's a completely political statement that has nothing to do with operational or safety reasons.

First you say that the providence tape there is a great example. Now you say that it's a political statement, with no regard for safety.

I could care less about politics. I operate into Montreal and Ottawa every month and cringe at the unnecessary stupidity that goes on there.

The providence tape is a great example and it is because of examples like those that I do not speak French on the radio. But bringing up an example of a safety risk, and then doing nothing to mitigate that risk makes me think that the motivation for bringing it up isn't a safety concern, but politics. Lets face it, French is not going away any time soon in Canada.

[sepia]

At least you acknowledge that it's a very real safety concern. My problem isn't that french is the language on the radio in an area where only french people are talking. My issue is that people who are fully able to speak english degrade the safety of everyone else in the airspace by not doing so when there's someone who can't understand the language.

[vic777]

My issue is that people who are fully able to speak english degrade the safety of everyone else in the airspace by not doing so when there's someone who can't understand the language.

You have to understand that real jobs for Francophones hang in the balance.