Checklists...

[Les Habitants]

Just wanted to get some thought from others out there....Is it just me, or do a lot of people seem to not be using their checklists anymore? I see a LOT of people who have memorized the checklists just firing it off of the top of their head. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Anyone feel convicted? Furthermore anyone have any stories of where trying to memorize it almost turned ugly?

Please use 'em people! They could save your life one day.

[Nark]

The last company worked for the checklist was just that, a checking device not a doing device.
The checklist would only cover 75% of my required items in the flow. Acceptance through to engine start left out many items. 'After landing' was the same.

Current company has a climb checklist at 400' then at 1500'. There is way too much going on to whip it out at 401' rather it's a list to ensure that the gear is up, taxi light is off etc...

[iflyforpie]

Flows and mnemonics have worked for me for years, light singles to light twins all single pilot in some very demanding environments.

Checklists are good for confirmations and better if you have a second pilot. But using it as a 'to do' list usually makes me forget an item or have to start over again if I lose my place.

[200hr Wonder]

All of my checklists are done via a flow, then when able I pull out the checklist and confirm that I have not forgot anything. In most aircraft right up to things as big as a King Air or Metro provided that you get the gear up and or down and the flaps up and or down everything else is is not "mission critical" and if you miss it in your flow and get back to it with a checklist a few minutes later no big deal. For example turning out the taxi/landing lights.

[Panama Jack]

Depending on your operation, maybe a problem is with the checklist?

I agree totally with what 200hr Wonder has said. This is the philosophy behind the checklists in aircraft types such as Airbus, Boeing, Embraer. In the past I have seen entirely too many checklists which list stupid little things that were not important. The message this sends? "Most of this stuff is not important".

Checklists that include only safety critical (or legal) items tend to be more valued. When pilots understand that they can save you from scratching the paint or getting a ticket from TC they are often used.

I won't even talk about the presentation of the checklist (clutter, typography, ones that look like they have been produced on an old ribbon typewriter)

http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegan ... tation.pdf

[ahramin]

Let's keep in mind that Boeing invented the checklist because their fancy new bomber, the B-17, kept being crashed by test pilots. For a while the thought was that pilots just couldn't fly machines that complicated.

Does a Cessna 150 actually need a checklist? What can actually kill you that a competent, current, and professional pilot might miss? When I'm bouncing around from one airplane type to the next, I check everything I've done with the manufacturer's checklist and add in my own items as needed. But when I'm flying my own aircraft, I have 2 checklists: Before Takeoff and Shutdown. The Before Takeoff has 5 items, the Shutdown has 4. I read and check all 9 items from the paper checklist every flight. But when I get into a flying school airplane and they have a 72 item Before Takeoff checklist, I can guarantee you that not once have I done the entire thing.

[Heliian]

A lot of people use their memory for a checklist, if there is one in the a/c, you should think about using it. How many accidents could have been prevented by a checklist? The answer is quite a few just from the gear being in the wrong position. The single page checklist you will find is an abbreviation of the FM. try comparing the two when you have a chance, you would be surprised what gets missed/changed.

fly safe

[BTD]

At my company the only normal checklist memory items are the after take-off and pre-landing. All the other items are action-ed from the the checklist. They are done as a challenge and response, but they are not done as a to do list. The items should have been positioned already.

Works well for us.

[Bulawrench]

I am glad someone brought this up. The industry is a joke. If you are going to use your memory it must be tested on a regular basis.
This also applies to a poor daily inspection. I see very little professionalism in the float sector.

[sidestick stirrer]

I always found a lot of merit in the military way of doing this: if the plane is stationary ( before start and before takeoff), use the checklist.
If the plane is in motion, use a flow. The flow always follows the same sweep, and your hand and eyes may pass over many things that will not be part of that particular flow but it is very quickly done and keeps one free to continue to fly the airplane and keep one's head up more of the time. For the critical Before-Landing Flow, follow up with an acronym to recheck the vital items.

[Northern Flyer]

It's funny that people are worried about doing some checks as a flow, from memory. The most important, time critical checks in an aircraft are usually memory items (emergency checks) If your familiar with a simple aircraft like a chieftain or King Air, I would always do my flow than glance through the checklist to make sure I didn't miss anything important.

A lot of people use their memory for a checklist, if there is one in the a/c, you should think about using it. How many accidents could have been prevented by a checklist? The answer is quite a few just from the gear being in the wrong position. The single page checklist you will find is an abbreviation of the FM. try comparing the two when you have a chance, you would be surprised what gets missed/changed.

fly safe

I find this statement kind of interesting, I really don't need a checklist to tell me to put the gear down when I'm landing, it is kind of common sense. Just a thought here but maybe if people were not so dependent on reading a checklist, and actually learned an aircraft, there would be less gear up landings. What would happen if a situation occurred where one was not able to read off a final landing check? If the checks were not read, would the gear still be extended?

[AuxBatOn]

I fly what most would consider a complex aircraft. Lots of systems, lots of power, weapons and lots of procedures associated with every system.

If I was to actually whip the checklist out for everything (pre-start, start, on deck, pre-taxi, pre-take off, climb check, weapons system check, air to ground check, FLIR check, pre-tanking check, post-tanking check, fence in check, pre-attack check, post-attack check, fence out check, battle damage check, pre-descent check, pre-landing check, post-landing check, shut down check) I would be out of gas and duty day before I can take off. I memorized everything, just like every other of my breed. I only get the checklist out for non-critical emergencies. It gets things going faster and you can actually spend time doing useful stuff, like not getting shot down or prosecuting a target. If after 10 flights you still cannot operate your plane without the use of a checklist, you should probably revisit your career, imo.

[niss]

Left to memory 9/10 times I forget to turn my xpdr from stby to on.

[Doc]

I use a flow.
If something is amiss, I use a checklist.
I've seen just a much missed WITH a checklist as without. Of course, I don't fly a space shuttle. I guess nobody does anymore though.
I've seen folks who CAN'T fly without one.
Before AuxBatOn gets on my case, if I flew what you fly, I'd do what you do. But, I don't.

[ahramin]

I won't even talk about the presentation of the checklist (clutter, typography, ones that look like they have been produced on an old ribbon typewriter)

http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/adegan ... tation.pdf

Isn't that the same guy who did the NASA paper on voice recognition in the cockpit?

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=75537

[PanEuropean]

... do a lot of people seem to not be using their checklists anymore? I see a LOT of people who have memorized the checklists just firing it off of the top of their head. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Habitant:

Do keep in mind that there are different philosophical approaches towards checklists. Two that I can think of are the 'read and do' approach (which might best be called a 'do-list', rather than a 'check-list'), and then there is the 'flow' concept.

Most people who fly aircraft for a living use flows (in other words, they work from memory, using a well-established path that they follow to configure the aircraft for each phase of flight), then, once they think that all the work is done, they pull out a check-list and quickly (and often quietly) read over the check-list to confirm that they did not forget anything.

In addition to the concept of the 'flow', newer aircraft that use a CAS (Crew Alerting System) to monitor status of the aircraft sometimes don't need a paper checklist at all for the routine items (before start, after start, pre-take-off, before landing). These aircraft are designed so that the crew work off of the CAS list, and generally speaking, the strategy is that prior to take-off or prior to landing, you want the CAS list to be empty. So, if you are planning to make a take-off in a CAS list aircraft, and you look at the CAS list and see that there is a message present, that generally means that you forgot to take the action required to clear that message off the list.

Aircraft that are designed around a CAS list usually (not always, but usually) will also have a Take-off Configuration Warning System (TOWS) that monitors the 'killer' items - for example, flap settings, trim settings, engine configuration - and if power is advanced beyond taxi power, the aircraft will loudly and persistently harass the pilot with NO TAKEOFF aural and visual alerts.

So - there is more than one way to implement a checking system to make sure nothing is forgotten. There is the classic 'read and do' list (typical of ab-initio training), then there is the 'flow', followed up by a silent review of a checklist (typical of complex aircraft, and almost a certainty with two-crew operations), and finally, there is the CAS list and TOWS, which pretty much eliminates many of the simple 'normal procedure' checklists.

I've posted a picture showing the CAS list of the plane that I fly. The list is pretty much self-explanatory, except for the cyan 'Takeoff Config' message, which means that one of the critical take-off items (flaps, trims, or engine configuration) has not yet been properly set up. So, all I have to do as pilot is to get rid of all these messages, and once that list is empty, the aircraft will be ready for take-off. There is still the risk that I might forget to turn on an exterior light - but, for that, there is an all-purpose 'catch-all' checklist that is reviewed prior to getting ready to start engines.

Michael

CAS (Crew Alerting System) List

[Banger]

If after 10 flights you still cannot operate your plane without the use of a checklist, you should probably revisit your career, imo.

Amen. On a side note, I've always wondered who actually writes our checklist. For example, why would you ever wait to turn your INS on until after the flight control system check? It makes no sense. Anyways...

Don't be afraid to re-arrange the checks so that they make sense, or use flows. I'm a huge proponent of flows. I always use the ol' left-to-right (or for my middle-eastern friends, the ol' right-to-left). It pretty much works for everything, whether you're starting up, or going into bad guy land.

My instructors at 410 were pretty clear; as long as the checks get done, the order doesn't really matter, and I have to agree with that. You're a pilot, and you know what needs to get done, so do it!

[Les Habitants]

Left to memory 9/10 times I forget to turn my xpdr from stby to on.

My exact point...and I too, am with you Niss. I used to ALWAYS forget it.

... do a lot of people seem to not be using their checklists anymore? I see a LOT of people who have memorized the checklists just firing it off of the top of their head. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Habitant:

Do keep in mind that there are different philosophical approaches towards checklists. Two that I can think of are the 'read and do' approach (which might best be called a 'do-list', rather than a 'check-list'), and then there is the 'flow' concept.

Most people who fly aircraft for a living use flows (in other words, they work from memory, using a well-established path that they follow to configure the aircraft for each phase of flight), then, once they think that all the work is done, they pull out a check-list and quickly (and often quietly) read over the check-list to confirm that they did not forget anything.

Thanks for the post Michael! Very interested to read, really!
I realize most crews use a flow, and in a 2 crew cockpit (like a Dash 8 or larger) I can understand this. The reason I posted this (and I was unclear in the original post) was because my company uses a challenge and response format.

There is nothing wrong with going through the checks in your mind, then confirming with the checklist-in fact I like this way better than the way my company currently does things, however, it's not always practical to do a flow where in a smaller plane (a king air, for example) are designed as a one crew plane with switches on the pilots side that the copilot would not be able to actuate.

My point was more so that people are doing all the checks in their mind and forgetting to confirm. 98% of the time it's no big deal...but what about that 2%? Why add 2% to the risk just because we don't want to pull out a checklist? Not meaning to accuse everyone of being this way here, but it seems to me this is what a lot of pilots do.

[aurora]

All of my checklists are done via a flow, then when able I pull out the checklist and confirm that I have not forgot anything. In most aircraft right up to things as big as a King Air or Metro provided that you get the gear up and or down and the flaps up and or down everything else is is not "mission critical" and if you miss it in your flow and get back to it with a checklist a few minutes later no big deal. For example turning out the taxi/landing lights.

This, but always remember to double check anything that's going to kill you:
takeoff: fuel, sufficient and flow, flaps for setting (everyone forgets this one once), trim (this one has murdered many men), and controls (I had a control failure once that I picked up jest before I shoved the throttle in on a 185 floatplane, the rudder was touching the elevator turns out due to some worn out bushings or something, could have been a mess).

Landing:
Flaps
Gear
Fuel selector

[iflyforpie]

Left to memory 9/10 times I forget to turn my xpdr from stby to on.

My exact point...and I too, am with you Niss. I used to ALWAYS forget it.

I used to always forget it in the hodgepodge of the 11 page 747... I mean 172 before takeoff checklist. Now I do it by memory.

I remember one of my first commercial jobs at slightly over 200 hours was flying cargo in a pair of Cherokee Sixes. One was a 1967, one a 1968. If you've been around spam can Pipers long enough, you know that anything in the cockpit 1967 and prior was done with the 'shotgun' approach to ergonomics. The instruments were anywhere they felt like putting them, the switches were all over the place hidden on the bottom of the panel, and carb heat, mixture, cabin heat, and cabin air were all identical chrome plated knobs on the right side of the cockpit. After 1968 they made colour coded engine levers on a quadrant, introduced the t configuration and put all the instruments on the left side, and put all of the important switches on a dedicated panel on the left side of the pilot. The Cherokee Six also had a quite complex fuel system for a 200 hour wonder flying ten legs a day.

So long story short, I was using the elongated company checklist to try and get everything, going all over the cockpit because the two planes were quite different from each other, trying to manage fuel remembering what I burned out of where, in a plane that had much higher performance than anything I'd been allowed to fly unsupervised at that point.

I'd wind up losing my place or forgetting an item, or checking the cabin heat instead of the mixture (it wasn't too long after I pulled the knob off, bead blasted it, and painted it red). After a few times fumbling with that, I developed a flow like I used in the 172 and used the much abbreviated Piper lists placarded on the panel. The order of things was different, but going bottom right to left I didn't miss anything, and there wasn't too much else required for landing a plane in 2004 than there was in 1967...

I have to adapt new flows and mnemonics for each plane I fly and sometimes incorporate redundant items. Since I switch between fixed and retractable gear aircraft, the gear gets checked every time I fly a 172.

Some of the things I do....

I never start to taxi without setting takeoff flaps. I will do a brake and hydraulics check at the same time.

I never set takeoff flaps without confirming the flap angle against the aileron deflections, and that segues into my flight control checks.

Transponders and lights go on as I am taking the active. I am looking for traffic and I want to be as visible as possible, both visually and on radar/tcas.

All the rest is just flows and mnemonics. Most planes work really well going left to right for post-takeoff (gear, power, props, mixtures, flaps), and clockwise for level (power, props, mixtures, cowls down (closed), trim up.

I check the gear twice before landing and I haven't needed the second check yet. <knocks on wood>

[Beefitarian]

Left to memory 9/10 times I forget to turn my xpdr from stby to on.

My exact point...and I too, am with you Niss. I used to ALWAYS forget it.

I used to always forget it in the hodgepodge of the 11 page 747... I mean 172 before takeoff checklist. Now I do it by memory.

I have been using the checklists for the last flights because I'm so dreadfully out of practice. Last flight ATC, "Cessna Gulf Whatever etc, confirm your Xponder is on." "Cessna Gulf Whatever etc, sorry 'bout that, Xponder on."

When I was a pilot I used to allways say and pretend to check on short final, "Gear down and locked." I figured if I just made it a habit then if and when I flew retractible gear I'd be ready to go around if it wasn't done. Tough to say maybe I was setting myself up for the voice recording of me not really checking it even though I said it just before scraping the bottom of the plane.

[PanEuropean]

Left to memory 9/10 times I forget to turn my xpdr from stby to on.

Without wanting to hijack the discussion topic away from checklists (and over to transponder operations), let me ask this:

Why is it even necessary to turn the transponder to standby? Why not just leave the darn thing on - in Mode C or Mode S - all the time? Or, if you are concerned about voltage variations during engine start, then turn it on before you even begin to taxi the aircraft, and turn it off before you shutdown the aircraft.

A thousand years ago, when ATC radar was first invented, pilots would wait until just before take-off to turn the transponder on, and turn it off promptly after landing, for the purpose of reducing clutter on the ATC controllers radar display. But, since at least the 1980s, the ATC radar displays filter out all Mode C or Mode S returns from aircraft that are on the ground, and don't even display these returns. This is accomplished automatically by the software in the ATC center - if the transponder emits aircraft altitude, it's very simple to filter out transponder returns from aircraft that are at field elevation.

Similarly, TCAS I and II systems in other aircraft do not issue traffic advisories or resolution advisories for other aircraft when the TCAS equipped aircraft is less than 400 feet above the ground.

So - genuine question here - why the heck are we still training pilots of aircraft equipped with Mode C or Mode S equipment to turn the transponder on and off immediately before and after flight? I can't think of a valid reason for this.

Michael

[Northern Flyer]

Left to memory 9/10 times I forget to turn my xpdr from stby to on.

Without wanting to hijack the discussion topic away from checklists (and over to transponder operations), let me ask this:

Why is it even necessary to turn the transponder to standby? Why not just leave the darn thing on - in Mode C or Mode S - all the time? Or, if you are concerned about voltage variations during engine start, then turn it on before you even begin to taxi the aircraft, and turn it off before you shutdown the aircraft.

A thousand years ago, when ATC radar was first invented, pilots would wait until just before take-off to turn the transponder on, and turn it off promptly after landing, for the purpose of reducing clutter on the ATC controllers radar display. But, since at least the 1980s, the ATC radar displays filter out all Mode C or Mode S returns from aircraft that are on the ground, and don't even display these returns. This is accomplished automatically by the software in the ATC center - if the transponder emits aircraft altitude, it's very simple to filter out transponder returns from aircraft that are at field elevation.

Similarly, TCAS I and II systems in other aircraft do not issue traffic advisories or resolution advisories for other aircraft when the TCAS equipped aircraft is less than 400 feet above the ground.

So - genuine question here - why the heck are we still training pilots of aircraft equipped with Mode C or Mode S equipment to turn the transponder on and off immediately before and after flight? I can't think of a valid reason for this.

Michael

One of the main reasons to turn it to standby is so that aircraft on short final don't have to put up with TCAS traffic alerts and resolutions when they are concentrating on landing. It's just good airman ship. I realize you said that TCAS I and II systems don't do this but I disagree with you. I spend 90% of my career below 400 feet working fires, and the TCAS audio has to be inhibited or you will go nuts with the the advisories. I have also many times had the aural warnings while on the ground or on short final, in many different aircraft.

[Nark]

I have to agree with the post above.

I've set off TA's a number of times, as I leave the mode C on at all times; since I fly into ASDE airports, and it's not part of my flow (keeping on topic).


Also holding short, I'd do my before takeoff flow, but wait until the last possible second to turn the Xpndr to TA/RA mode. Once the software detects an RA it will revert the MFD to the TCAS screen and away from my preferential set up. Just a pain in the ass to set it back up again, and run the checklist (once cleared into position/takeoff).

[aurora]

[rant]
Its called a TILT check ladies and gentlemen, learn it and use it plz.
This isn't amateur hour, its professional aviation, and this is private pilot shit that even 200 hour instructors have committed to memory and use on a daily basis. It's okay to make a mistake and leave the transponder in the wrong position, but there is no excuse for leaving it on constantly simply for the sake of leaving it on.

Below the line:

Transponder
Icing
Landing light
Time

My current airplane has a squat switch that disengages the transponder signal, if your airplane isn't equipped with that be a little more courteous and try not to set off the TCAS of arriving aircraft.
[/rant]