Where did all the old high time posters go?
Dont often read the trash on Av Canada but did browse through the thread on "Gusts". It seems that one now has to be a super pilot to land on floats from anything but a powered approach! ! I dont have the heart to tell these bloody twits that we had to demonstrate an idle power approach all the way to touchdown on the frigin Sunderland, not that many of these posters would know what a Sunderland is. Really ., I dont know why you bother, the standards are such a joke these days in regards to basic skills, one only has to read the last nine hull loses to see that the dumbing down of flight training is just starting to take effect. Hope all is well with you,
Generation creep.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Generation creep.
The following e-mail message got me to thinking about how aviation is changing and why I am having so much difficulty trying to understand why so many pilots think you need power all the time to land an airplane.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Generation creep.
What a misleading title. I thought you were posting an autobiography. 
Could not help myself.
The difficulty is that the "creep" of degeneration in the flight training industry occurs over a number of years. Those in it, of course, do not see it, as they do not know different. That is problem one. And the accident rate, which is where it ulitmately shows up, takes years and years before most people can recognize the problems.That is problem two.
The advancement of technology has become so sophisticated that things like magnetic variation and deviation are only theroretical subjects to the new generation of pilots, and for the most part even basic stuff like lat/long..Punch DCT to xxxx, and forget about all that stuff you were required to learn.
The emphasis on procedures, regulation regurgitating etc for commercial pliots is taking priority over actually teaching them how to fly.
The question should be.. Is there really a problem, and if so, what is the solution?
I actually started to answer the question, but unfotunately it was filling page after page so I deleted it.
Suffice it to say, I feel there is a problem.. But bitching about it does not solve it, and bringing it up over and over again does not resolve it and causes resentment.
So lets look at solutions
Could not help myself.
The difficulty is that the "creep" of degeneration in the flight training industry occurs over a number of years. Those in it, of course, do not see it, as they do not know different. That is problem one. And the accident rate, which is where it ulitmately shows up, takes years and years before most people can recognize the problems.That is problem two.
The advancement of technology has become so sophisticated that things like magnetic variation and deviation are only theroretical subjects to the new generation of pilots, and for the most part even basic stuff like lat/long..Punch DCT to xxxx, and forget about all that stuff you were required to learn.
The emphasis on procedures, regulation regurgitating etc for commercial pliots is taking priority over actually teaching them how to fly.
The question should be.. Is there really a problem, and if so, what is the solution?
I actually started to answer the question, but unfotunately it was filling page after page so I deleted it.
Suffice it to say, I feel there is a problem.. But bitching about it does not solve it, and bringing it up over and over again does not resolve it and causes resentment.
So lets look at solutions
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
-
Shiny Side Up
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5335
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
- Location: Group W bench
Re: Generation creep.
Slightly OT, I had the privilidge to fly with a fellow who had flown Sunderlands during the War once. Got the idea that the fellow was born to flying. He had a lot of other very interesting types in his old British license too. Unfortunately there just wasn't time to learn more.
I don't know if flight training is really fully to blame. Its really just the people who are interested in flying. Its just different.
I don't know if flight training is really fully to blame. Its really just the people who are interested in flying. Its just different.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
-
iflyforpie
- Top Poster
- Posts: 8132
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
- Location: Winterfell...
Re: Generation creep.
Yeah, those Sunderland pilots who survived to this day are the cream of the crop. But many of their compatriots died 60 years ago.. not from the Germans or the Japanese, but from training accidents and non-combat operational flying.
I was taught power off landings for my seaplane rating... I was under the assumption it was a required standard. The ability to land without power is a basic aircraft certification requirement in the Normal Category. I'm pretty sure a Sunderland could take more of a beating than the 172 I flew... but it was made by the same people who built the Titanic so I am not sure...
The accident rates speak for themselves, and so do the increased (or unavailable) insurance rates, and the wreckers yards full of aircraft. It wasn't my generation that made that happen.
I was taught power off landings for my seaplane rating... I was under the assumption it was a required standard. The ability to land without power is a basic aircraft certification requirement in the Normal Category. I'm pretty sure a Sunderland could take more of a beating than the 172 I flew... but it was made by the same people who built the Titanic so I am not sure...
The accident rates speak for themselves, and so do the increased (or unavailable) insurance rates, and the wreckers yards full of aircraft. It wasn't my generation that made that happen.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
Seems like there is a signifigant problem in basic flying skills with the product that is turned out in this industry.
So what is the reason for this poor skills and understanding of basics?
And is it fixable?
So what is the reason for this poor skills and understanding of basics?
And is it fixable?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
Even more important for me of course is should I quit giving a fu.k and just quit bothering to discuss this stuff here on this forum.....because personally I think I'm wasting my time here as the guy explained in that e-mail today.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Generation creep.
I think you are bringing at valid point to the table.
My opinion:
If the student is motivated he will make a better pilot. If he wants a fast track to a jet to make money, he'll be a shitty pilot 9 out of 10 times.
On the other side of the coin, if you have an inexpirienced instructor, your not going to produce a pilot with a good solid base, just the bare minimum to pass the next test.
There are hundreds of examples at the puppymill flight schools.
The first 1000 hours will tell you a lot about the pilot, has he stopped learning since completing CPL and coasted by?
My opinion:
If the student is motivated he will make a better pilot. If he wants a fast track to a jet to make money, he'll be a shitty pilot 9 out of 10 times.
On the other side of the coin, if you have an inexpirienced instructor, your not going to produce a pilot with a good solid base, just the bare minimum to pass the next test.
There are hundreds of examples at the puppymill flight schools.
The first 1000 hours will tell you a lot about the pilot, has he stopped learning since completing CPL and coasted by?
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
Semper Fidelis
“De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites"-
Do not wish death for your enemy, plan it.
Semper Fidelis
“De inimico non loquaris male, sed cogites"-
Do not wish death for your enemy, plan it.
Re: Generation creep.
I wonder if they got rid of the DFTE's and went back to the MOT doing the rides. I did my instrument ride with a ex Saber/ 104 pilot. I have heard of people doing initial intrument rides with the auto-pilot engaged.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
DFTE : Designated Flight Test Examiner.
Under the present set up there is the possibility of conflict of interest the way it is regulated.
MOT : Ministry of Transport.
Back in the era that TCCA was known as MOT I was a DFTE.
Now I am not even employable in commercial aviation this third world country because TCCA is a dictatorship....sort of like Zimbabwe is today under Robert Mugabe.
Under the present set up there is the possibility of conflict of interest the way it is regulated.
MOT : Ministry of Transport.
Back in the era that TCCA was known as MOT I was a DFTE.
Now I am not even employable in commercial aviation this third world country because TCCA is a dictatorship....sort of like Zimbabwe is today under Robert Mugabe.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Generation creep.
Thanks for clearing some of that up for me Cat. I didn't realize that the schools could have DFTE not working for TC.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Generation creep.
Here is a thought Cat.
Why not put those years of collected wisdom of yours to use, and instead of playing question and answer, put together a specific set of training issues and your practical ideas of how to resolve them.
Otherwise we are just going round and round...Sitting on the porch in our rocking chairs badmouthing the new generation, but doing nothing positive to improve it.
There are some pretty skilled youngins out there, who, through , no real fault of their own, dont know how to fly well..They adapt and relearn quickly. On the other hand there are some instructers out there, of all classes who will doggedly defend the most outrageous claims.
The starting point if for the industry as a whole, and TC in particular to recognize that poor training today does not result in an accident today..It takes time, so it is necessary for people to recognize the trend and take corrective action. It is also important to understand accident stats. With the tremedous technological advances in nav/comms equipment, as an example, one part of the accident stats may be reducing while the other , pilot error part, in increasing. simply looking at accidents/hr can be misleading.
The second, and very specific recommendation I have, is for ground schools to become a separate part of licensing, and require an approval and an a instructor endorsement for teaching ground school.. this is done in other countries. In Canada it seems that anybody can teach ground school, and there really is no other requirement that the hourly one and pass the test.. A bit to simplistic, and this from someone who hates government interference. a couple of years ago I watched an Online IF Rating course. I was pure garbage. Besides the instructor ending every sentence with OK, he actually was giving some incorrect information. If nothing else, TC should be reviewing and approving on line ground school courses for the correcteness of content, and proper instructional techniques...
An "approved" on line ground school course so to speak.
Why not put those years of collected wisdom of yours to use, and instead of playing question and answer, put together a specific set of training issues and your practical ideas of how to resolve them.
Otherwise we are just going round and round...Sitting on the porch in our rocking chairs badmouthing the new generation, but doing nothing positive to improve it.
There are some pretty skilled youngins out there, who, through , no real fault of their own, dont know how to fly well..They adapt and relearn quickly. On the other hand there are some instructers out there, of all classes who will doggedly defend the most outrageous claims.
The starting point if for the industry as a whole, and TC in particular to recognize that poor training today does not result in an accident today..It takes time, so it is necessary for people to recognize the trend and take corrective action. It is also important to understand accident stats. With the tremedous technological advances in nav/comms equipment, as an example, one part of the accident stats may be reducing while the other , pilot error part, in increasing. simply looking at accidents/hr can be misleading.
The second, and very specific recommendation I have, is for ground schools to become a separate part of licensing, and require an approval and an a instructor endorsement for teaching ground school.. this is done in other countries. In Canada it seems that anybody can teach ground school, and there really is no other requirement that the hourly one and pass the test.. A bit to simplistic, and this from someone who hates government interference. a couple of years ago I watched an Online IF Rating course. I was pure garbage. Besides the instructor ending every sentence with OK, he actually was giving some incorrect information. If nothing else, TC should be reviewing and approving on line ground school courses for the correcteness of content, and proper instructional techniques...
An "approved" on line ground school course so to speak.
Last edited by trey kule on Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
How's life treating you CD?
Good to see you are still reading and commenting.
I am slowly getting back in the groove flying a light amphibian out here on the left coast, it is interesting to be reminded that skills not used become rusty so to speak.
So far I have not wrecked the fuc.ing thing yet.
There is an up side to working again, not only is it helping me emotionally it is helping physically as I have actually started to slowly regain some of the weight I lost during the past year, hell I was never very big to start with.
Bandaid will be pleased to find out I am on the mend.
Good to see you are still reading and commenting.
I am slowly getting back in the groove flying a light amphibian out here on the left coast, it is interesting to be reminded that skills not used become rusty so to speak.
So far I have not wrecked the fuc.ing thing yet.
There is an up side to working again, not only is it helping me emotionally it is helping physically as I have actually started to slowly regain some of the weight I lost during the past year, hell I was never very big to start with.
Bandaid will be pleased to find out I am on the mend.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Big Pistons Forever
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5956
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
- Location: West Coast
Re: Generation creep.
+ 1trey kule wrote:
Otherwise we are just going round and round...Sitting on the porch in our rocking chairs badmouthing the new generation, but doing nothing positive to improve it.
Too bad because there is a wealth of experience on Avcanada but it does no use if it is not shared. However
I think most readers are interested in hearing specific details on what constitutes "best practices" not just another blanket condemnation of low time pilots and instructors
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
Well now that I am back flying I will be giving a pilot training on his new tail wheel airplane at Pitt Meadows, and will be checking out a prospective pilot on the Husky with the intention of using that individual in our flight department in the next year or so.....next will be the addition of the Bell 206 and when I tire of flying it that same pilot just may be trained on the Bell.
Of course non of the above is helping out aviation is it?
I had my years of trying to change flight training when I owned a flight school both fixed and rotary wing.....
So those of you who seldom miss a chance do diss me and most everything I say, here is a thought that may be worth tossing around in your cranium, will you be able to go back flying for a living at seventy five after having retired at seventy?
Of course non of the above is helping out aviation is it?
I had my years of trying to change flight training when I owned a flight school both fixed and rotary wing.....
So those of you who seldom miss a chance do diss me and most everything I say, here is a thought that may be worth tossing around in your cranium, will you be able to go back flying for a living at seventy five after having retired at seventy?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
5400AirportRdSouth
- Rank 5
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:23 am
Re: Generation creep.
While don't have the knowledge or experience (yet) to join this debate, something that occurred to me the other day is that perhaps part of the "problem" is that your new CPL maybe isn't called on as much these days to use some of the concepts they were taught during training.
Is it possible that the nature of the flying that many fresh CPL's are hired to perform, in not requiring much more than "D, enter,enter", that the map reading and dead reckoning skills that they were taught arent exercised enough to be retained long term?
I second the above, that every time I come on here and hear how piss poor a product new pilots are these days, without an attempt to teach us something , all I hear is " stay off my lawn, you damn kids! "
50% of the threads I read here on this subject go like this;
A: Damn kids keep walking on my lawn!
B: I know! Have you tried putting up a sign?
A: Thats a good idea, I'll try that
The other 50% are thus;
A: damn kids keep walking on my lawn!
B: kids suck!
C: MEENNNN!
Is it possible that the nature of the flying that many fresh CPL's are hired to perform, in not requiring much more than "D, enter,enter", that the map reading and dead reckoning skills that they were taught arent exercised enough to be retained long term?
I second the above, that every time I come on here and hear how piss poor a product new pilots are these days, without an attempt to teach us something , all I hear is " stay off my lawn, you damn kids! "
50% of the threads I read here on this subject go like this;
A: Damn kids keep walking on my lawn!
B: I know! Have you tried putting up a sign?
A: Thats a good idea, I'll try that
The other 50% are thus;
A: damn kids keep walking on my lawn!
B: kids suck!
C: MEENNNN!
Remember, only YOU can stop Narcissism
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
Why should any of us retired pilots have to defend our not actively being involved in training young pilots who were poorly trained in the system to start with?
A lot of us were employers and teachers a few generations ago and did our part then.
Once again I do not blame the kids, it is the system that produced their instructors who I am dissatisfied with.
Furthermore I did do something about how the system is run, I took legal action against the top of their structure and got a legal ruling some of them at the top are corrupt.
A lot of us were employers and teachers a few generations ago and did our part then.
Once again I do not blame the kids, it is the system that produced their instructors who I am dissatisfied with.
Furthermore I did do something about how the system is run, I took legal action against the top of their structure and got a legal ruling some of them at the top are corrupt.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Generation creep.
Retire at 70! I wish.. I am on the freedom 95 plan.
Seriously though, my idea of retirement is to become an instructor (again after 25 years). It is a bit of a challange to compete with young instructors who will put in 70 hour weeks, clean the office, answer phones, and do it all for diddly-squat. a few months ago I actually looked into renewing my rating, but what Transport requires, and what the FTU's want are about $10k apart..and the problem is with the FTU's. The experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth for the understanding the current class 1 instructors that I dealt with have for meeting a requirement. It is all about money to them. BTW, the people in Transport Canada are aware of this little problem and were most helpful.
As to CID's comment about acronyms. Point taken.Though in my defence I always thought TC stood for Transport Canada but when I found out it actually meant 'those...unpostable 's" I became confused about its actual meaning, so I just use TC as everyone seems to understand what that, or who that refers to, regardless of their interpretation of the acronym.
Seriously though, my idea of retirement is to become an instructor (again after 25 years). It is a bit of a challange to compete with young instructors who will put in 70 hour weeks, clean the office, answer phones, and do it all for diddly-squat. a few months ago I actually looked into renewing my rating, but what Transport requires, and what the FTU's want are about $10k apart..and the problem is with the FTU's. The experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth for the understanding the current class 1 instructors that I dealt with have for meeting a requirement. It is all about money to them. BTW, the people in Transport Canada are aware of this little problem and were most helpful.
As to CID's comment about acronyms. Point taken.Though in my defence I always thought TC stood for Transport Canada but when I found out it actually meant 'those...unpostable 's" I became confused about its actual meaning, so I just use TC as everyone seems to understand what that, or who that refers to, regardless of their interpretation of the acronym.
Last edited by trey kule on Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
-
yousuckmonday
- Rank 0
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:01 am
Re: Generation creep.
Good call.Cat Driver wrote:Even more important for me of course is should I quit giving a fu.k and just quit bothering to discuss this stuff here on this forum.....because personally I think I'm wasting my time here as the guy explained in that e-mail today.
No one is interested in hearing the continuous bitching and griping. You might think you deserve a medal for giving tail dragger training to one pilot, check flights to another, and hoping that you get a Bell 206. However, the regular vitriol that you serve up on this forum to new pilots at any level does a massive disservice to hundreds of others that come to this website for information. Unfortunate, really, because I have read some of the threads where you actually include some useful information. Those posts are absolute gold, will change the way one flys for the better, and right on point for what this forum should be about. Sadly, those posts are too few and far between. You seem to prefer railing against the system, lack of basic flying skills and new pilots.
If you have some knowledge that you wish to share please do so. Otherwise leave, and instead of "...bothering to discuss this stuff here on this forum..." just go and discuss it in person with whoever will give you an ear. Keep in mind that if you are going to talk about things like you do on this website it is less likely to inspire a new generation of pilots to take up the torch of changing the system for the better and more likely to inspire them to simply avoid the 75 year old curmudgeon who bitches about the state of affairs in flying these days.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
So let me see if I understand your position Yousuckmonday, you are in aviation and you see nothing to worry about when someone try's to point put your regulator is infested with morally corrupt top management? Like for instance the region I live in, the Pacific Region.
Before you rush to answer please take into consideration not only was I directly involved with working for the regulator here in Canada in the past I also worked for the CAA in Greece......which gives me considerable in site into how these agencies work.....or should work.
Flying an airplane is nothing more than operating a mechanical device.
Regulating an industry is the heart and soul of the industry, and the the regulator in Canada has some real serious problems in it's upper management.
Obviously you do not really understand my comments about checking out someone on our company amphib. and in the near future a helicopter which we plan on operating. The job will be one of the best positions a pilot could hope for.
Before you rush to answer please take into consideration not only was I directly involved with working for the regulator here in Canada in the past I also worked for the CAA in Greece......which gives me considerable in site into how these agencies work.....or should work.
Flying an airplane is nothing more than operating a mechanical device.
Regulating an industry is the heart and soul of the industry, and the the regulator in Canada has some real serious problems in it's upper management.
Obviously you do not really understand my comments about checking out someone on our company amphib. and in the near future a helicopter which we plan on operating. The job will be one of the best positions a pilot could hope for.
Last edited by Cat Driver on Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Generation creep.
You beat me to it. In my experience I've seen all too many students who look at their training (and probably first several jobs) as hoops to jump through, not the valuable experience this time really is. I suppose it's up to instructors to motivate their students and get them to take pride in every little thing they do. Unfortunately, many of those instructors are just there to jump through a hoop so who does it come down to, the CFI?Nark wrote:My opinion:
If the student is motivated he will make a better pilot. If he wants a fast track to a jet to make money, he'll be a shitty pilot 9 out of 10 times.
I have a few disjointed and semi-coherent ideas for bringing about a change, if I can get it all to make sense I'll probably end up posting here.
LnS.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Generation creep.
Before I go to bed I would like to make one more comment.
This forum lost one of it's most knowledgeable posters who posted in the name Hedley, he also was well informed on the problems within the regulator in Canada and like me stated his opinion on that subject.
I have personally met him and he is one of the best in the industry.
This forum lost one of it's most knowledgeable posters who posted in the name Hedley, he also was well informed on the problems within the regulator in Canada and like me stated his opinion on that subject.
I have personally met him and he is one of the best in the industry.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
