Hey everybody,
I'm training on the Cessna 150 and my landings are still fairly rough. My approach is pretty decent but I'm having trouble with the level off and landing flare. Just wondering if anybody has any advice to get that smooth landing.
Thanks.
Landing Flare
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Re: Landing Flare
Without knowing the specifics of what you've been told and what you're doing, I'll offer up the following.
Typically whatever it is you're doing you'll tend to go where your eyes are. This applies to walking, riding a bicycle, driving a car, and flying an airplane, among many other things. On approach you want to be looking mostly at your flare point, then when the ground gets all big and scary you want to smoothly close the throttle and shift your focus up to the horizon. Now you're naturally trying to fly the airplane all the way to the edge of the earth but since the engine is idling you'll just raise the nose higher and higher to keep the plane off the ground as energy bleeds off until in spite of your best efforts to hold it up, the plane touches down. If you like, you can steal a couple glances at the ground below you but remember that's not where your main focus should be.
Another thing that can make an otherwise nice landing feel bad is a little bit of sideways drift as you touch down. That little jolt as the airplane abruptly changes direction can often be mistaken for a hard landing.
To really help out, more info would be nice. What stage of training are you in? Have you soloed yet? How many hours of circuits? What does your instructor have to say about it? The clearer the situation you describe to us, the better we can help you out.
LnS.
Typically whatever it is you're doing you'll tend to go where your eyes are. This applies to walking, riding a bicycle, driving a car, and flying an airplane, among many other things. On approach you want to be looking mostly at your flare point, then when the ground gets all big and scary you want to smoothly close the throttle and shift your focus up to the horizon. Now you're naturally trying to fly the airplane all the way to the edge of the earth but since the engine is idling you'll just raise the nose higher and higher to keep the plane off the ground as energy bleeds off until in spite of your best efforts to hold it up, the plane touches down. If you like, you can steal a couple glances at the ground below you but remember that's not where your main focus should be.
Another thing that can make an otherwise nice landing feel bad is a little bit of sideways drift as you touch down. That little jolt as the airplane abruptly changes direction can often be mistaken for a hard landing.
To really help out, more info would be nice. What stage of training are you in? Have you soloed yet? How many hours of circuits? What does your instructor have to say about it? The clearer the situation you describe to us, the better we can help you out.
LnS.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Landing Flare
Of all the exercises the flare and hold off for the landing is generally the worse taught exercise in training.
Once you have flared from the approach path to the level attitude you will never be able to accurately judge your hold off height above the runway if you look at the horizon.
I can' begin to count the number of times I have posted here explaining where to look after the flare.........
.......so once again......you look straight ahead at he point where apparent movement ceases......about five hundred feet in a small trainer.
Once you have flared from the approach path to the level attitude you will never be able to accurately judge your hold off height above the runway if you look at the horizon.
I can' begin to count the number of times I have posted here explaining where to look after the flare.........
.......so once again......you look straight ahead at he point where apparent movement ceases......about five hundred feet in a small trainer.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Landing Flare
Yes, eyes to where you want to touch down on the approach (or slightly short, since you will drift a bit further during the flare) and then as the ground starts rushing towards you look further down the runway.
It should be noted that after you are 'over the fence' you are no longer concerned with maintaining airspeed. Smoothly close the throttle and control altitude with attitude. I think that fixating on an approach speed (and often a padded one at that) into the round out results in a lot of floating and over controlling.
FWIW, the 150 is a very easy plane to land, but a difficult one to land well.
It should be noted that after you are 'over the fence' you are no longer concerned with maintaining airspeed. Smoothly close the throttle and control altitude with attitude. I think that fixating on an approach speed (and often a padded one at that) into the round out results in a lot of floating and over controlling.
FWIW, the 150 is a very easy plane to land, but a difficult one to land well.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: Landing Flare
Hey ., I had to think this one over for a bit. I would have thought if you're moving parallel to the ground then the horizon would be where apparent movement ceases. Am I looking at things all wrong or does looking just a wee bit lower reduce the chances of ballooning?Cat Driver wrote:once again......you look straight ahead at he point where apparent movement ceases......about five hundred feet in a small trainer.
LnS.
Re: Landing Flare
Easily observed while sitting on the tailgate of a pickup truck while it's driving forward. Right under your feet the ground is whizzing past, 500 ft away it's moving really slowly. I would say that at about 20 mph the point where movement appears to stop is between 50 and 100 feet away.the point where apparent movement ceases
Similar idea while landing in a small airplane.
Re: Landing Flare
Thanks for the tips guys (girls?). The approach seems to be going well for me. I'm all trimmed and set with a good descent going. I think where I'm having difficulty with the landings is when I'm leveling off and then flaring to touch down. I'm either doing it too soon or I seem to be pulling back too hard when flaring and end up pulling back too far which is causing me to balloon. I don't know what happened today while I was solo but I had a decent landing. I was even more impressed because it was in a decent enough crosswind at the same time. It's stuff I'm working at but I've had three different instructors watch me while doing this and while I'm safe and I'm landing, I just can't seem to get it to perfection. I guess it's something that'll come with more practice.
Re: Landing Flare
I had a lot of trouble with this as well. I was diving in and trying to flare too aggressively, which would result in either a balloon or slamming into the runway. I went up with my father and he noticed this and said to start the flare higher and do it more gradually. It didn't take long for my landings to get much better after doing this.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Landing Flare
It is difficult for me to type and put into words the sight line process I use and teach for the flare / hold off / touch down process.
But I will make this comment.
If you are only taught the high flare wait for ground contact using power as a crutch how would you become accurate enough in height judgement to perform short wheel landings or even more important learn height judgement accurate enough to be an aerial applicator?
One thing I can guarantee the high flare scenario ain't going to work.
But I will make this comment.
If you are only taught the high flare wait for ground contact using power as a crutch how would you become accurate enough in height judgement to perform short wheel landings or even more important learn height judgement accurate enough to be an aerial applicator?
One thing I can guarantee the high flare scenario ain't going to work.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Landing Flare
I would not worry about it too much. If you are solo its because you instructor has seen you land safely many times and that is what counts. A perfect landing is not one where you feel nothing, its one where the plane touches down where you want it to at the speed you want heading in the proper direction.I don't know what happened today while I was solo but I had a decent landing. I was even more impressed because it was in a decent enough crosswind at the same time. It's stuff I'm working at but I've had three different instructors watch me while doing this and while I'm safe and I'm landing, I just can't seem to get it to perfection. I guess it's something that'll come with more practice.
Often a more 'solid' contact with the earth is better especially on a wet surface or blowing snow etc. because you are less likely to drift/aquaplane etc.
Take the energy/worry you are putting into those greasers and put it into things like a full power off approach with touch down exactly where you want it with a little bit of slip here and there to finess it. Thats Wayyy more important .
As to judging flair altitude, why not look down at the wheel every now and then and see how hight you are? Nothing says you have to be looking over the nose the whole time. Its perfectly possible to look to the side infact in many planes thats all you can do. Anyway just look down at the wheel a few times you'll know immediately if you are too high to start flairing.
Re: Landing Flare
Hey Boogs,
Don't beat yourself up. Practise makes perfect, no one consistently has perfect landings when they are low time (or even high time for that matter). The 150 is a trainer aircraft, it is meant for people to train on it.
Keep at it and you'll master it in no time. Safety first though!
If you feel uncertain about a landing go around. Better go around and spend another 0.3 in the air than hurt your self / damage the aircraft. De-brief with your instructor after each flight, discuss what you are having problems with.
Don't beat yourself up. Practise makes perfect, no one consistently has perfect landings when they are low time (or even high time for that matter). The 150 is a trainer aircraft, it is meant for people to train on it.
Keep at it and you'll master it in no time. Safety first though!
If you feel uncertain about a landing go around. Better go around and spend another 0.3 in the air than hurt your self / damage the aircraft. De-brief with your instructor after each flight, discuss what you are having problems with.
Re: Landing Flare
I was't suggesting a "high flare" - just that I was trying to do it too low and too abruptly. If you start the flare a bit high, you just need to back off a bit and it is a lot less stressful to make the correction than when you are too low and the ground is coming up fast. Removing that stress allowed me to get a feel for how high I was a lot quicker and now, at 110 hours I have transitioned to a Maule and consistently get it over the wires and stopped in just over 1000' (which I don't think would work if I was flaring too high).Cat Driver wrote:It is difficult for me to type and put into words the sight line process I use and teach for the flare / hold off / touch down process.
But I will make this comment.
If you are only taught the high flare wait for ground contact using power as a crutch how would you become accurate enough in height judgement to perform short wheel landings or even more important learn height judgement accurate enough to be an aerial applicator?
One thing I can guarantee the high flare scenario ain't going to work.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Landing Flare
Woodzi, do you wheel land the Maule or do you generally three point it?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Landing Flare
Thanks for answering.Three pointers and light cross winds at this point.
I trust you are still being checked out in it, as unless you are proficient in wheel landings you are not proficient as a tail wheel pilot, because the wheel landing skill is the most important of the two types of landings in a tail wheel airplane.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Landing Flare
It's difficult for me to understand how it works but I decided to give it a shot anyways. While I can pretty well grease on light airplanes all day long without putting a whole lot of thought into it, the plane at work is notoriously difficult to put on the ground smoothly. It's not that I'm killing it every landing, they're all acceptable but I just wasn't quite happy with them. As of about a week ago I've shifted my focal point down just a bit as you'd suggested and I've suddenly become much happier with putting the airplane on the ground.Cat Driver wrote:It is difficult for me to type and put into words the sight line process I use and teach for the flare / hold off / touch down process.
Thanks ..
I'd still like to know how it works, but for the time being I at least know that it does work.
LnS.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Landing Flare
Low and slow it works just like most other things we use our eyesight to judge our distance / height from.
We center our field of vision on the object we want to determine our distance / height from.
Let's take this example, you wish to determine the distance you are from an object in a large room.
You look at the object.....not the far end of the room.
Same thing holds true for judging height above the runway.....you center your line of sight at the part of the runway ahead of you where there is no apparent movement of the runway towards you. Looking at that point gives you the best point for judging height above the runway.
Close your eyes and pretend you are an air show pilot and you are inverted just above the runway and want to pick up a ribbon being held on poles by a ground crew.
You would focus your line of sight on the ribbon, not the horizon.....unless you have a death wish.
I am not sure exactly when schools started teaching students to look at the horizon and set up the landing attitude and wait for the airplane to contact the earth, but for sure that method seems to have really taken hold and of course the reason is obvious, it is easy to teach and requires very little effort in teaching it.....just another example of dumming down the industry....in my personal opinion of course.
We center our field of vision on the object we want to determine our distance / height from.
Let's take this example, you wish to determine the distance you are from an object in a large room.
You look at the object.....not the far end of the room.
Same thing holds true for judging height above the runway.....you center your line of sight at the part of the runway ahead of you where there is no apparent movement of the runway towards you. Looking at that point gives you the best point for judging height above the runway.
Close your eyes and pretend you are an air show pilot and you are inverted just above the runway and want to pick up a ribbon being held on poles by a ground crew.
You would focus your line of sight on the ribbon, not the horizon.....unless you have a death wish.
I am not sure exactly when schools started teaching students to look at the horizon and set up the landing attitude and wait for the airplane to contact the earth, but for sure that method seems to have really taken hold and of course the reason is obvious, it is easy to teach and requires very little effort in teaching it.....just another example of dumming down the industry....in my personal opinion of course.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Landing Flare
I'm sort of on a roll today and might as well really nail my opinions down with some background facts.
For judging height I have learned from the following background.
Seven years aerial application.
Fifteen years as a captain fire bombing.
Eight years as an airdisplay pilot in the European air show circuit with an unrestricted air display authority under JAR.
And just for good measure, I have yet to hit anything I did not want to hit.
For judging height I have learned from the following background.
Seven years aerial application.
Fifteen years as a captain fire bombing.
Eight years as an airdisplay pilot in the European air show circuit with an unrestricted air display authority under JAR.
And just for good measure, I have yet to hit anything I did not want to hit.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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. ._
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Re: Landing Flare
Hey boogs82!
I feel your pain. I still barely know how to land a plane even though I'm a 250 hour commercial pilot with a float rating.
In the beginning, this was the toughest thing I had to learn (and I'm still crap at it).
I'd look down at "the horizon", then I'd be hoping and praying that the runway didn't come up too fast. I almost got dizzy and was all "floaty feeling" as I dreamed that I'd land perfectly. I had no idea how high I was above the runway, and still barely know.
What I figured out (totally on my own with no help from a decent instructor) was that if I kept the nose on the horizon, played with power a bit, I'd land with my main wheels first. Some times it would be nice, some times it would be not so nice, but there would be no tail strike, and there would be minimal bounce.
Keep in mind, I'm inexperienced, but haven't crashed yet. Those are my only credentials.
My only advice is- if you aren't 100 percent sure on your landings, keep seeking advice. That's what I do and it has worked for me, but I am by no means a good pilot. I'm still working on it. Maybe one day it'll "click" with me.
-istp
I feel your pain. I still barely know how to land a plane even though I'm a 250 hour commercial pilot with a float rating.
In the beginning, this was the toughest thing I had to learn (and I'm still crap at it).
I'd look down at "the horizon", then I'd be hoping and praying that the runway didn't come up too fast. I almost got dizzy and was all "floaty feeling" as I dreamed that I'd land perfectly. I had no idea how high I was above the runway, and still barely know.
What I figured out (totally on my own with no help from a decent instructor) was that if I kept the nose on the horizon, played with power a bit, I'd land with my main wheels first. Some times it would be nice, some times it would be not so nice, but there would be no tail strike, and there would be minimal bounce.
Keep in mind, I'm inexperienced, but haven't crashed yet. Those are my only credentials.
My only advice is- if you aren't 100 percent sure on your landings, keep seeking advice. That's what I do and it has worked for me, but I am by no means a good pilot. I'm still working on it. Maybe one day it'll "click" with me.
-istp
Re: Landing Flare
Perhaps learning to land on a wide and long grass field could help judging height and flare nicely, by removing other, potentially misleading visual references?
JBL
Re: Landing Flare
I'm not too sure what happened today but it's like everything pieced together. Was working on short-field takeoff and landing and the landings were still a little bit rough, but not unreal. I was basically coming in flat still. No ballooning though which was nice. So the instructor sends me out solo to practice the stuff we had worked on. Beautiful approach for the first landing, in a C152, speed was around 60MPH, came down, flared at the right point and had the smoothest touchdown I've had yet. Did three more after that and they were all the same. Far better than the last time I was solo.
To be honest with you, I think this is as good an accomplishment as my first solo
I left with confidence today and it feels awesome.
To be honest with you, I think this is as good an accomplishment as my first solo
I left with confidence today and it feels awesome.-
Shiny Side Up
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Re: Landing Flare
Practice makes perfect. Its always good to see when a student makes that break through. Its like that perfect zen moment. Keep on working at it. 
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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Beefitarian
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Re: Landing Flare
Thanks guys. Things have gone really well this week since I've figured things out. That little bit of confidence has done wonders and it seems like everything has been pieced together for whatever reason. Unreal what one good day can do for somebody. If only the same were true for golf..... lol.
