1943-1944 TCA instrument approach procedures charts

[into the blue]

Last one:



Great thread! Cheers.

[200hr Wonder]

into the blue,

Thank you so much for that map. I have often wondered what radio aids and air ways where in use in 1956 during the crash of TCA Flight 810.

Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Cana ... Flight_810

My grandfather was a passenger that was killed on that flight. From the report the plane was to fly Red 75 to Red 44 Princeton Beacon Green 1 to Calgary. There was an indication of an engine fire and they where returning to Vancouver when they flew in to Mt. Slesse which is just a little West of Chilliwack lake. This now makes complete sense to me as to why they where so far off course. They still had the ADF tuned to Abbotsford Radio beacon on 344 from the Red routes they where on rather than Vancouver Radio beacon on 248. A simple mistake to make while dealing with severe icing, an engine out and loosing altitude.

Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the official report? If that is even possible.

I will be hiking the crash site this week so this is a great chart to have to understand what was going on.

[200hr Wonder]

I have for reference indicated the TCA 810 Crash site on the chart.

[Chaxterium]

Hello all,

Excellent thread. I am really curious though, what is this about yellow and blue and what does it have to do with an ILS approach?

Cheers,
Chax

[YYZatcboy]

Best thread I have seen here in a long time!

[Beefitarian]

Why is it that the runway approach lights are off-centered?

I have a guess on this, which is strictly made up here.

Since the pilots fly slightly to the right of the lights to lineup with the runway. If the lights were not as directional as modern ones. There would be a better safety margin if two people were to accidentally use the same set of approach lights from opposite directions.

[Chaxterium]

Is it possible that the lights are simply displayed on the chart as off centre but are in fact lined up with the runway?

[into the blue]

200hr Wonder, I've never heard of that accident before. I'm glad this chart was helpful to you.

This now makes complete sense to me as to why they where so far off course. They still had the ADF tuned to Abbotsford Radio beacon on 344 from the Red routes they where on rather than Vancouver Radio beacon on 248. A simple mistake to make while dealing with severe icing, an engine out and loosing altitude.

That sounds very plausible.
EDIT: What we probably will never know is whether they were relying on ADF, or whether they were using the four-course radio ranges for airway navigation. Here's some reading on how the radio range worked and what challenges it presented: http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/ndb-nav-history.htm.

[all_ramped_up]

Awesome! I love this kind of stuff!

Going to have to dig through my library as I have a rather aged copy of an American IFR training manual with some small charts in it.

[Beefitarian]

Is it possible that the lights are simply displayed on the chart as off centre but are in fact lined up with the runway?

I think that's possible. It is pretty improbable. They would at that time take every effort to make the diagrams correct. What would be the purpose in drawing the lights out of place?

[learcapt]

Here is a pic of one of the plates.

[propquest]

I was lucky enough to fly the lady who created many of these TCA airport diagrams back in the 40's. She was flying out west on our Embraer and we had a nice talk about working at Air Canada back in the day. She was awesome and had lots of interesting stories.

She told me that one of the pilots had mentioned to her that the airport diagrams looked too plain and that she should draw some trees on to give them a little life. So sure enough the airport diagrams posted have lots of little trees drawn on. Just a little aside but I thinks its sort of cool.

Cheers

[URC]

Willing to sell for best offer.

I'll buy them ... what's the latest bid stand at now ?

[lownslow]

what is this about yellow and blue and what does it have to do with an ILS approach

Old NAV displays had a yellow side and a blue side instead of dots showing you off course. I have no idea if it was a sensitivity (or lack thereof) thing or if it was the original standard to prevent backcourse confusion before someone came up with, "you are the needle." There's a chance you can see one of these old instruments for yourself if you head down to the local flying club and peek into the rattiest Cessna they have.

LnS.

[oldtimer]

Most older VOR/ILS indicators had the display divided into the blue section and the yellow section and the charts displayed the ILS final approach course as either a clear (yellow) section or the darker (blue) section. Worked well enough in the early days for the back course ILS. That was before the widespread use of an HSI. You "obeyed" the needle on a front couse or "disobeyed" the needle on a back course. The back course ILS was not an ICAO recognised approach procedure.

[jpilot77]

Lets see what Dorval used to look like.

[Skydrvr7]

I will have to check my charts and get back to you. In know that I have some foreign airport charts like London and some Caribbean destinations in there...I may have overlooked scanning all the Canadian ones.

I also have some sweet WWII VNC charts including some that were made for night navigation....all the colours are muted so as not to ruin your night vision when you shone a light on them!

[Captain S itmagnet]

great thread

The scans of the Fraser Valley VFR chart show an airport that I have only heard of anectodally, Sumas Municipal, just east of Abbotsford. I know there was an NDB around the charted location in the 70's. A Google search so far has had no results. Does anyone know more about this former airport? It shows 5200' of pavement, and I would assume a sw-ne orientaion based on usual winds and the terrain. Google Earth shows no obvious evidence of a former airport either.

Thanks

[into the blue]

Google Earth shows no obvious evidence of a former airport either.

Hi Captain S,

Actually, there is some. Try these coordinates: 49° 2'19.18"N 122° 7'53.32"W. You'll see a line of trees, exactly 5,200' long, cutting several farm fields at a rather odd angle (oriented 111°/291° true). Sadly, that is all that remains.

[Captain S itmagnet]

cool and thanks

would have made for some interesting times with the strong winds from the NE and SW that typically happen here

[dieselbro]

Thank you guys for posting these, very neat! And would you look at that, 24*E variation.

[Westbeach]

My grandfather (may he RIP) was a TCA guy from the mid 40's to 1983 where he retired on the L1011 - attached is a pic of his licences - notice the ratings on his ATPL. Back in the day, once you checked out on something it seems you never lost the rating - at his retirement he was a check captain on the L1011 but clearly had the ability to jump back into the super connie or DC3 if reqd! I really want these plates to be able to put with his licence, wings, and uniform and pass the history onto my own - what is the bid at?

[Canoehead]

^ What were 'Class 9 Aeroplanes'? I assume the equivilant to today's MEL?
There is some great stuff on here. This is he kind of thread that makes me proud to be an aviator... not ashamed like some others. Keep posting!

[Vx.]

Wow, thanks for posting these. Its a shame that most of this stuff was thrown away when it became out of date. I love old aviation books and the like. Any chance you would be willing to scan and post the approach and airport diagram for Vancouver? it would mean alot. I would offer the buy the book but it looks like some folks have a better use for them than I do.

Thanks,

[Skydrvr7]

Here are some more aeronautical charts from WWII that I have collected.

BCATP High River training area 2.jpg (600.45 KiB) Viewed 1125 times

Here is an example of one of the "Night Navigation" maps with the muted colours that are friendly to viewing under a red light.

High River Map Apr 7-43 Night Navigation 2.jpg (906.37 KiB) Viewed 1125 times

Cheers!