A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

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Cap'n Tripps
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by Cap'n Tripps »

delay256 wrote:@Sulako

How am I suppose to get the experience when no one is going to hire me?

Everybody needs a first break, Iv'e just not had any luck for the last two years and a bit.

Believe me, a lot of people, including myself, have had to wait for a heck of a lot longer than a measly 2 years for a job. Any job, let alone a "real" job.

Either you're not trying hard enough, or you're not trying hard enough in the right places.

How's your french?

Cheers and good luck, wherever you end up.
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cdnpilot77
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by cdnpilot77 »

delay256 wrote:@Sulako

How am I suppose to get the experience when no one is going to hire me?

Everybody needs a first break, Iv'e just not had any luck for the last two years and a bit.
I offered you assistance with your resume and cover letter yesterday and still haven't seen anything from you. If I was desperate...and I have been (was out of work for a full year), I did everything under the sun to change my fate. You need to create your own breaks, they will never just fall into your lap!
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photofly
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by photofly »

I know I wouldn't want a 300-hour pilot flying my family around in an Airbus
Don't let them fly a European airline then!

I think we're misconstruing what a type rating is. It's not a measure of respect that you deserve, or a token of your value to your employer. It's just a type rating, that says you've demonstrated the procedures safely to fly a particular kind of aircraft, as determined by the manufacturer.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

My cousin who had his own rating got hired at age 20 on an A320 with 300 hours, hes 23 and a Captain now with IndiGo. (Worked out pretty well for him). Im hoping to do the same.

Again my finances are none of your business


I probably should just let this fade into oblivion.

However I still have this hope aviation will improve as time passes and the attitude I see displayed here is not the attitude that I approve of and having hired hundreds of pilots over my career I am really uncomfortable with the attitude of this poster.

When pilots get hired based on their belief they are entitled to advancement because they will pay money to get there we are at the point where automation should replace pilots and let the computers do the job.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
photofly
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by photofly »

I take it, ., that you'd disapprove of the EasyJet and Ryanair cadet schemes? Where, at perhaps 200 hrs you effectively pay for the rest of your training directly to the airline while sitting right-seat in one of their airliners with paying passengers at the back? It's generally joked that on any Ryanair flight, the person who paid most for the flight is sitting directly on the captain's right.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I take it, ., that you'd disapprove of the EasyJet and Ryanair cadet schemes? Where, at perhaps 200 hrs you effectively pay for the rest of your training directly to the airline while sitting right-seat in one of their airliners with paying passengers at the back? It's generally joked that on any Ryanair flight, the person who paid most for the flight is sitting directly on the captain's right.
I actually have mixed emotions regarding this progress from zero to the right hand seat situation.

I flew with one of the pilots who did sim training for Ryan Air and we both agreed that it seems that is the way the aviation world is headed, from my observation the quality of training in Europe was superior to what one generally finds in Canada....

....but in the final analysis my opinion really will not change the way the industry is going.

I'm obviously old school and think nothing really trumps experience.

Let me reverse this question thing back to you Photofly and ask you a question, if you owned a very expensive airplane and needed a pilot to fly it would you want an experienced pilot or would you hire a low timer who bought a rating?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
photofly
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by photofly »

if you owned a very expensive airplane and needed a pilot to fly it would you want an experienced pilot or would you hire a low timer who bought a rating?
I don't think that's an entirely meaningful question. Let's say I own an airline, with a fleet of aircraft. And I have shareholders. That means I need a responsible recruitment strategy to have pilots with a range of seniorities and experiences, so they don't all end up retiring at the same time. So I need some very experienced pilots, and some low-timers too.

If you're asking would I discriminate against someone who'd paid for their own type-rating? No. That's what I mean about not mistaking a type rating for an ego massage. Someone who comes to me for a job but requires me to pay $35k for their training would simply command a lower salary than someone who has already spent that $35k on themselves. That's really what the European cadet schemes are about, and it makes perfect sense, economically.
I'm obviously old school and think nothing really trumps experience.
I understand the argument that is made is that 1000 hours teaching noobs from the right seat of a 172 is of very little use in flying, say, a 737NG. It's actually better then to get that 1000 hours in the right seat of the 737 in the first place. It's certainly advantageous from the trainee pilots point of view.
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Last edited by photofly on Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
straightpilot
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by straightpilot »

It doesn't matter what we think - it's the kid's money, not anyone else's. If he wants to spend it gold-plating his Sunfire, you can't interfere and stop him from doing that, either. It doesn't matter if you think it's stupid or unfair, it's his money, not yours. Since it's his money, he can spend it the way he wants to. You get to spend your money the way you want to.

Some people don't have the $60,000 it takes to get a PPL/night/CPL/MIFR. Is that unfair? Are you going to stop the people with $60,000 from spending it on PPL/night/CPL/MIFR, too?

What gives anyone here the right to interfere and tell other people how they can live their lives, and spend their money?
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I personally do not care if someone spends their money on anything they want to, I only gave my own opinion.

Now back to the Airbus A320 with a fresh type rated low time pilot in the right hand seat.

The captain is in the lavatory and there is a problem like Air France had last year over the South Atlantic.

Do you want to be sitting in the back as a passenger?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
ybwflyguy
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by ybwflyguy »

I understand the argument that is made is that 1000 hours teaching noobs from the right seat of a 172 is of very little use in flying, say, a 737NG. It's actually better then to get that 1000 hours in the right seat of the 737 in the first place. It's certainly advantageous from the trainee pilots point of view.

In some ways I agree, but how many people will go right seat in an airliner here in Canada with 1000hrs in a 172. That instructor is likely to next fly a Navajo, followed by a captain position. Then perhaps to a King Air. Whatever their path, they're likely to have a good few thousand hours spent in complex machines flying IMC, icing, thunderstorms, system malfunctions etc. etc. possibly with a great deal of PIC time in these situations. All this experience our two big airlines look at as prerequisite for flying a plane with a couple hundred passengers behind you. Unfortunately, with the lack of GA in Europe the airlines can't be this picky with their FOs. Seems as if all the emphasis is on theory (crazy amount of studying/exams) and money (i.e. enough to actually be in a position to apply to an airline).
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by cdnpilot77 »

. . wrote:I personally do not care if someone spends their money on anything they want to, I only gave my own opinion.

Now back to the Airbus A320 with a fresh type rated low time pilot in the right hand seat.

The captain is in the lavatory and there is a problem like Air France had last year over the South Atlantic.

Do you want to be sitting in the back as a passenger?

Wasn't there an incident a year or so ago where a lowtime right seat bus driver at the controls with captain in the lav freaked out when he accidently disabled the A/P and nearly stalled the airplane only to be saved by the capt returning to the flightdeck or maybe saved by a checkpilot on the flightdeck something like that? It happens, I am sure of it...I will try and find it.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by photofly »

The captain is in the lavatory and there is a problem like Air France had last year over the South Atlantic.

Do you want to be sitting in the back as a passenger?
And yet the captain made it back to the cockpit, and neither he nor the other two pilots - all experienced - made the decisions to save the plane. Experience didn't help.
All this experience our two big airlines look at as prerequisite for flying a plane with a couple hundred passengers behind you. Unfortunately, with the lack of GA in Europe the airlines can't be this picky with their FOs.
The safety record of European airlines isn't noticeably better or worse than those in North America, which is prima facie evidence that all those thousands of hours flying Navajos and Q400's over here don't make the difference that you suppose.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

O.K. Photo fly just this once will you answer a simple question just for me?

If you owned a very expensive airplane and you were using it in a commercial operation you would hire a 200 hour Pilot because in your opinion experience does not mean anything as far as skills go.

By the way I am well aware you are trolling, but a lot of inexperienced people here just may take you seriously.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by photofly »

. . wrote:O.K. Photo fly just this once will you answer a simple question just for me?

If you owned a very expensive airplane and you were using it in a commercial operation you would hire a 200 hour Pilot because in your opinion experience does not mean anything as far as skills go.

By the way I am well aware you are trolling, but a lot of inexperienced people here just may take you seriously.
It's not my opinion that experience doesn't mean anything, as far as skills go. I simply make that the point that 200 (or whatever) hours of the right experience along with a "frozen ATPL" is considered by the European safety authorities to be sufficient to sit right seat on a passenger-carrying 737. Appeals about how the benefits of 5 or more years flying a King Air or Navajo in the frozen wastelands of Arctic Canada must generate some quantity of the "right stuff" which can only be of benefit to the passengers in the back sound great, but those benefits don't show up in the accident records of the airlines that employ those pilots.

You keep asking about "if I owned an expensive airplane" - but airlines don't own just one expensive airplane, they have a fleet, and a whole population of pilots to manage. So what one would or wouldn't do with one airplane is a different question with a different answer to what one would or wouldn't do with a fleet.

When I was a child and British Airways ran their own flight training unit which trained all their pilots from scratch (at Hamble: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamble_Col ... r_Training) the trainees they didn't get sent out to be instructors in a 172 from 200-1000 hours before working for a Tier 4/3/2 airline to "gain experience" and then going on to a Tier 1 carrier - they went straight to work right-seat for BOAC or BEA, or later BA - flag carriers all. Putting pilots in front of passengers at a major carrier at 200 hours is not a new feature of the airline industry.

As regards trolling: I don't know what your definition is. I write only what I believe. If anyone wants to take it seriously or otherwise it should be only because they've considered the merits of the argument.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Post by Beefitarian »

In most cases flying many hours in the frozen north will be somewhat difficult manual or hands on flying. Of course that should be valuable experience. No?
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

As regards trolling: I don't know what your definition is. I write only what I believe. If anyone wants to take it seriously or otherwise it should be only because they've considered the merits of the argument.
Exactly, each reader here will digest what they read and form their own opinions.

Just between me and you we have different opinions which is exactly what human nature is about.

I read what you type, but I have the feeling you either have not really researched my background when you start this nonsense about how they do it in Europe or you are just jerking my chain.

Either way it will not really change much because I'm betting more people will listen to my opinion than yours if for no other reason than I share my real background and it is easy to validate it.

Part of my background was working directly with the regulators in Europe therefore it stands to reason I understand their system.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Slow down here. It looks like you're about to break out "Nyan cat" soon.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Nah, I'm actually quite laid back Beef when it comes to these back and forth exchanges with posters on here who could be anyone from a ten year old to the most experienced pilot in the whole Fu in world.

Actually I get a bit of enjoyment out of it Beef as it helps me pass time. :mrgreen:
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by Beefitarian »

Ok that's cool. You seemed to have skimmed his post and missed what seems to be a fair point though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you have 4000 pilots it may be a better place to put 50 low time ones in to gain experience. Versus you only have 6 pilots and they never fly together because your planes are single pilot like a caravan. In the big operation there may be some mentoring going on.
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delay256
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Re: A320 Type Rating- Looking for Training Partner

Post by delay256 »

Captains make mistakes too, we all do and that is a fact of life. Going and blaming low time FO's for everything that goes wrong is ridiculous.

I have chosen to go down this route at this point. I have time on the Navajo in IMC and Icing conditions but the experience I got there has little to do with the FMS, ECAM and overall jet transition skills I am learning now. If I stick on to the route in Canada and eventually get on a jet here someday, it would still be a whole new world so I figure I might as well start the process now.
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