king air to air canada

[Mclovin]

Jazz pilots from YYC have recently been hired at AC.

[KAG]

Now thats great news. I'm refering to 06/07 when all Jazz guys were getting interviewed but few moving over. Sounds like that trend is changing. Back when the regionals were seperate, I can recall Nova guys getting job offers from AC during the first day of (Nova) Ground School. There used to be much more flow through. I hope to see those days again.

[Mclovin]

Now thats great news. I'm refering to 06/07 when all Jazz guys were getting interviewed but few moving over. Sounds like that trend is changing. Back when the regionals were seperate, I can recall Nova guys getting job offers from AC during the first day of (Nova) Ground School. There used to be much more flow through. I hope to see those days again.

Me too. I am still waiting for a call for an interview. 5000 hours, 2400 Jet, 400MPIC, 1600PIC......and nothing.

[ogopogo]

When I was training at the Brampton Flying Club, one of my instructors there went straight to AC. This was back in the good ol days, obviously. Imagine.

[bcflyer]

Which part? I worked for jazz, my two roommates were jazz pilots one was a skipper. I know a few jazz guys that did move over but the majority of them were from the first few classes of 05/06. Now I was YYZ based so I can't speak for all bases, but the turn down rate was very high, disproportionate I'd say. But that's neither here nor there, and I truely hope things have changed. Given that AC is now entering a retirement wave and there will be lots of movement, I imagine more people will be given the chance at their dream job.

To say the PFO rate for Jazz guys was disproportinate you would have to know how many guys were interviewed vs hired off the street. I was at jazz and got hired at AC as did quite a few of my friends who were at Jazz. We were told that they interviewed something like 5-6 guys for every 1 pilot they hired.

[sepia]

Unless something has changed the PFO rate for Jazz guys was in the 90% or higher, I heard the entire Yyc base got PFO'd. Sure some did get hired but most did not.
Hopefully that has changed it would be nice to see those two pilots groups show a bit more comrodery towards eachother.

You're so full of shit it's not even funny man. When you post something which you have no actual idea about, but post it as a fact you deserve to be called out.

For the 2005-2008 hiring wave, the difference between jazz and off the street hiring was 2%. No typo there, two bloody percent. Did Jazz guys have a rough time? Certainly, but it was no worse than anyone else, despite the misinformation that some continue to try to pass off as fact.

If you don't believe me, call up Dave Legge yourself and he can show you a nifty chart.


Now that's taken care of.


You need to ask yourself very seriously what your career goals are? The majority seem to favour AC or WJ. You need to look at what type of people those companies hire? What specific companies seem to have disproportionate representation? What job types are over represented? Move your career to those, all the while applying. Looking at outlying cases is a really bad idea? Can you get hired directly from Air Canada or WJ from a king air 90 based in Stoney Rapids? Sure, but they're gonna hire 50 guys from Georgian or Porter for every king air guy. Unless you have an insanely good connection, I'd put myself in the proven training grounds.

[KAG]

Sepia
I'm so full of shit? No idea? Man I was there, I had Jazz roommates, I spoke to pilots in the crew room. Now I don’t have exact numbers but I’m going to call total BULL SHIT to hiring 2% interviewed. Let’s see how many pilots were hired in 05-08, 300 hundred, more? And you’re telling me they only took 2% of OTS? considering they probably hired a couple dozen from Jazz in that time frame, that’s still hundreds OTS hired, so if 98% were turned down that would be thousands interviewed?!?! Common really.

Someone asked if you could go to AC from A King Air, yes you can. I got a shit on by co-joe for no damn reason, and I responded. Some asked if going to Jazz is a good way to get onto AC, no it’s not- Sadly that was not the case in the last round of hiring, as mentioned I hope thats changed. Somehow this turned into the usual Jazz/AC shit, and frankly I don’t care. Don’t like what I have to say, don’t read it.



BC, I have to ask when were you hired from Jazz? I never said it was impossible, and prior to the years mentioned it was the norm. But during those years, at least from the YYZ base it was not, and from what we were hearing it was similar elsewhere. We all know pilots, 3 degrees of separation and all. And when that many are getting PFO’d or knowing guys that did, you have to ask is that normal.

Again, I really don’t want to dredge up the past, and I do hope it has changed.
Good luck to those applying.

[Rudy]

How "the difference between jazz and off the street hiring was 2%" becomes "hiring 2% interviewed" in someone's mind is beyond me and is actually a little scary.

[KAG]

Rudy your right, I can't read. RTFT*2.
Sepia, I Apologize, apparently I can't read. I saw red after the first line, and didn't read you correctly. But I can't see how the numbers are within 2% when I personally know so many guys that got turned down from jazz. If 300 got hired your telling me almost half of each ground school was from Jazz? That didn't happen or am I still misunderstanding. I do know a few guys early on that got hired but that's it. Everyone in my GS that interviewed was PFO'd, for example. You'd think at least one would have made it through.
Either way I'll be reading a little closer before I post and sound like an asshole.
I am now accepting public mockery.

[Inverted2]

In 05'-08' they interviewed many Jazz pilots but I would say only a few dozen got on. Back then AC still owned a large part of Jazz. What I heard from a credible source is that when they hired an off-the-street pilot to AC there was only 1 training event (which likely costs 50,000+) versus 2 when a Jazz pilot got hired at AC - Training the Jazz pilot and his or her replacement. WJ was taking so many Jazz pilots a few years ago that we would have not been able to maintain a flight schedule if AC took more than a few on.

[sepia]

RTFQx3

the PFO rate was within 2% of each other when you compared jazz from off the street

So if 100 jazz applicants interviewed and 25 got hired, you'd have obviously 25% hire rate.
100 off the street guys interviewed and 27 got hired, you'd have 27% hire rate with a 2% split. That's what I mean when I say a 2% split. Dave Legge didn't say which way the split went, but did VERY clearly state that there was no grounds to the rumour of Jazz seeing unfair treatment. Jazz didn't by any means have the "getting fucked" market cornered. It's not like off the street people weren't getting annihilated too. For the record, my class was over 50% jazz, as were nearly all classes after the summer of 2007.

Just to add more, so we're perfectly clear. It's obvious that the "off the street" is a MUCH larger pool than jazz. So when you look at the number of interviews for each group, the resulting classes will reflect this. This is seeming bias is magnified many times, because the previous wave of hiring had flow through agreements where Tier 2 pilots were heavily favoured.

Anyway, like I said before, if you don't believe me, Call the VP of flight ops and tell him you think he's full of shit.

[KAG]

You see this is where there is either a disconnect or something was wonky. I was originally hired early 06. I know of a few guys that made the jump from late 05 hire dates but that's about it. It was the running joke around the crew room "did you get you PFO yet". That and of that hire era I knew a lot of guys that went to jazz, as jazz was the first major hiring post 9/11 downturn. My one roomy was a skipper with 10'years in from the YYC base that transferred in to get a left seat. He and a bunch of his buddies didn't make it through. The newer hires from my era were not moving over, it wasn't happening at least in the YYZ base, we heard similar stories from other bases. I Am wondering what percentage of Jazz pilots that made the transition were from Jazz 05 onward hire dates.

Now the question was asked in this thread, is going to jazz a good way to get on with AC? My personal experience and from the experiences of A LOT of my peers is no it's not, at least back then.
so you see hire date at Jazz my have played a very big role in your (my) perspective of turn down rates, cause I promise you, folks hired around my time had very little success making the jump to AC.

[sepia]

I think you've totally missed the point somehow, which is baffling. This will be my very last attempt at trying to get through to you.


I've never said that Jazz people didn't have a rough time in the interview.

I understand that there was LOTS of PFO's.


What I can't fathom is that you don't realize that you weren't alone. You don't think there was crew rooms all over the country that were filled with people making the "did you get your pfo yet?" jokes.

Anyway as I've now mentioned 3 times. If you think my information is wrong, or that I'm trying to pull a fast one. Call Dave Legge. Call someone with real information. What you're continuing to spread is absolute bullshit, and it blows my mind that you're somehow holding onto the notion that the macro view you had of the hiring is correct, despite being provided with factual information.

[Dark Helmet]

I don't k now why I am getting involved in this but what the heck,

Sepia,

I think what KAG was trying to say is that during the last hiring round, AC hired less pilots from Jazz than before. So it was all relative.

Back in the late 90's, most of the pilots hired at AC came from the regionals. You pretty much had to go to the regionals to get hired at AC.

When the hiring resumed at Jazz in 05, people thought it would be the same. Go to Jazz and unless you take a crap on the table during the interview with AC, you would get on at AC. Therefore, a lot of pilots flocked to Jazz thinking that they would eventually get on at AC.

However,that was not the case this time around. Your chances of getting on at AC from Jazz were no different than Georgian, Perimeter, Wasaya, etc. A lot of Jazz pilots did not see that coming, and were shocked to find out that they would have been better off staying where they were. Futhermore, at that time you had to wait til your number came up for the interview at AC and wait 2 years before joining AC (assuming you got hired).

As you can see, people hired at Jazz between 05-08 were put at a disadvantage compared to their peers at other companies.

Today that is no longer the case, a Jazz pilot can get called at any time and leave when AC hires them without any restrictions.

In the end, Jazz is no longer the best way to AC. Your chances are no different than any other airline. Unless a pilot lacks heavy time (above 12.5) there is no point in coming to Jazz if you want to go to AC. Does not mean that you won't get on, just that your chances are no different.

The reason why your class had 50% Jazz pilots and the classes after is that those were the frozen ones that were finally released. There is or has never been any flowthrough agreement between the 2 pilot groups.

Hope that makes sense.

[bcflyer]

I was hired at AC in 06. I was frozen for a while and when I finally made the jump across everyone in my course was from Jazz. (9 of us) I personally know about 20 guys and gals from Jazz who are now at AC. All hired in 06.

[Dockjock]

Dark Helmet, your analysis is close, but too generous to pilots who went to Jazz "thinking" that it was going to be just like the mid 1990's. They were not tricked, or shafted, or put upon by vindictive AC HR managers. If anyone in 2005-2008 went to Jazz specifically to improve their odds at AC, then they were stupid. AvCanada has been around for what 10+ years? This discussion went on ad naseum RIGHT HERE, in that period.

I was at CMA while this was all getting going (2003-2006). As a B1900 captain with 4500 hrs- there were and still are lots of us (them)- your options were as follows
i) apply at WJ
ii) apply at AC
iii) apply at Jazz
iv) elsewhere, Cathay or such (requiring JET TIME)

Nobody, at CMA at least, went to Jazz as a way of increasing their chances at going to AC, for exactly the reasons that sepia has clearly and repeatedly elucidated. There was no flow through anymore, which everyone knew. What there was was a guaranteed interview for Jazz pilots, nothing more. Dozens of pilots were flowing to WJ and directly to AC on a monthly basis from airlines like CMA, so any intelligent person could figure out that going to Jazz, unless one wanted specifically to work for Jazz, was a lateral move. It DID NOT improve your chances with AC and, as sepia so clearly shows, it did not decrease your odds either.

The only guys I know that went to Jazz went there to get Jet time so they could apply at Cathay. Everyone else went direct to WJ or AC from the B1900, which is a 704 airplane by the way, not 703. Guys like KAG were then, as now, on this forum crowing about how much more benevolent WJ was to Jazz guys...wah wah wah and so forth. WJ loved Jazz guys for two reasons- WJ at the time had a shorter upgrade time than AC and liked guys with jet time, which RJ pilots had, and also owing to its close association with AC, by hiring Jazz guys they could in a roundabout way stick it to the competition by stealing their pilots and, the thinking went, cost AC money. Jazz pilots themselves began to believe that WJ loved them and AC hated them because their success rate was higher. SUCCESS RATE, not actual hiring rate. AC probably hired 5 Jazz guys for every 1 WJ hired, it's just that AC was interviewing all of them and WJ was interviewing, well, considerably fewer. KAG and others have spent the last 5 years trumpeting about how much smarter WJ is for hiring all those terrific Jazz pilots, when AC probably has 5x more of them than everyone else combined.

Long story short, get off the King Air just like KAG did. Just don't go to Jazz thinking it is any different from Porter or CMA or GGN. There are now 3 airlines in Canada that have DH8-400's, more with old Dash's, and many with B1900D's. Get on a bigger aircraft in a bigger company, make some contacts with your new colleagues and keep at it. And as for all this talk about lifestyle, that should be a secondary consideration if your goal is to move on. Go somewhere where you a) meet lots of pilots b) fly at least 75 hrs a month. This wave is going to be big so best get in the proper on deck circle, not snoozing in the bullpen.

[TopperHarley]

Long story short, get off the King Air just like KAG did. Just don't go to Jazz thinking it is any different from Porter or CMA or GGN.

In a way, Jazz is different from those others as it's more of a career airline. You can "hold out" for AC/WJ/AT/etc by staying somewhere like CMA or GGN, and it could very well work out for you, as it has for many people. But if for whatever reason those airline reject you, you're still at a stepping-stone company. By going to Jazz early on, in a worst case scenario (i.e. your dreamjob company PFOs you), at least you're at a career company and are far better off than you would've been had you stayed somewhere like GGN or CMA.

[Doc]

Now thats great news. I'm refering to 06/07 when all Jazz guys were getting interviewed but few moving over. Sounds like that trend is changing. Back when the regionals were seperate, I can recall Nova guys getting job offers from AC during the first day of (Nova) Ground School. There used to be much more flow through. I hope to see those days again.

Me too. I am still waiting for a call for an interview. 5000 hours, 2400 Jet, 400MPIC, 1600PIC......and nothing.

Not to come across as rude here, but what in your qualifications do you think makes you stand out? Only 1/3 or your time is PIC, and only 1/4 of that is MPIC. Just tossing this out there, maybe you should reduce your TT to 3500 give or take? Not sure if that's "cool" or not, but you look like a career co-pilot.

[TopperHarley]

Doc,

I have friends recently hired with as low as 200 MPIC. Other friends of mine have gone through the interview with 0 multi-turbine PIC. But they've all had other qualifications (all have degrees, multiple languages, etc).

[Mclovin]

Now thats great news. I'm refering to 06/07 when all Jazz guys were getting interviewed but few moving over. Sounds like that trend is changing. Back when the regionals were seperate, I can recall Nova guys getting job offers from AC during the first day of (Nova) Ground School. There used to be much more flow through. I hope to see those days again.

Me too. I am still waiting for a call for an interview. 5000 hours, 2400 Jet, 400MPIC, 1600PIC......and nothing.

Not to come across as rude here, but what in your qualifications do you think makes you stand out? Only 1/3 or your time is PIC, and only 1/4 of that is MPIC. Just tossing this out there, maybe you should reduce your TT to 3500 give or take? Not sure if that's "cool" or not, but you look like a career co-pilot.

Well I am seeing guys with a lot less PIC time and NO MPIC time getting hired. I am just wondering what they are doing different. No I will not lie about my time, I think I have pretty relevant time for the job. And career copilot? I'm only 31 LOL!

[Inverted2]

Shows the Air Canada hiring mentality: You have a degree in basket weaving and can speak French? You're hired! Multi time? Bah, we'll teach it in the sim.

[flying4dollars]

This kind of story is frustrating for all the hard-working guys out there actively pursuing an Air Canada career. That kid/now Emb Captain, has no appreciation of what he has. Not sure if he'll ever have the capacity to appreciate how fortunate he was. But it is the nerve of the Dad check airman coming to tell a bunch of guys busting their tails on the docks that AC takes family first, then off the street, is the real cherry on this story. Fortunately, as best I understand it, the AC interview process has been cleaned up quite a bit, so that legacy candidates no longer have such a built-in advantage.

For most AC newhires, getting a course date is the culmination of 6-10 years of commercial flying, several jobs, thousands of hours of experience, being based countless places, blood, sweat, and tears. Keep the faith!

JTrain

How do you know he doesn't appreciate what he has?

[KAG]

Im going to Appologise to the poor fella who started this thread on how off course it got. You Can go from a king air to AC. There may be some drama and online arguments along the wPay.
It seems you can't answer a question from ones own experience without it pissing someone off.
Fine.
Dockjock,'welcome back, it's been awhile.
Yes, Hundreds of us were fucking retards for going to Jazz thinking it would lead to AC. I guess I, and many of my peers missed that memo. Got it, I'm not worthy.

Im going to sign off now for trying to post on here with an iPhone is about as maddening as trying to discuss hiring trends from Jazz to AC from 5'years ago.
Seriously I don't know what I want to do more, dunk my head in a vat of boiling grease or huck this autocorrecting monster off the balcony.

Fly safe all

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

I find it funny that it's all the old timers lecturing the younger guys that they do not have enough experience ... yet most of these guys were flying DC-8s and L-1011s at the age of 21 . It almost seems to be a crime going from a King to a 320. Ask around . Quite frankly, if Air Canada hires you then they did for the right reasons. They believe your skill set + their training will set you up for a nice career. Some operators may have a different philosophy, but the reality is Air Canada has one of the best safety records for a reason. Call it luck if you will, but I think it comes down to their process. If you well lets say F- Up .... then they dismiss you.

One of those barriers in society i suppose

Man Vs Woman
Society Vs First Nations
French Vs English
Liberal VS Conservative
Old Pilot Vs Young Pilot

[flying4dollars]

I find it funny that it's all the old timers lecturing the younger guys that they do not have enough experience ... yet most of these guys were flying DC-8s and L-1011s at the age of 21 . It almost seems to be a crime going from a King to a 320. Ask around . Quite frankly, if Air Canada hires you then they did for the right reasons. They believe your skill set + their training will set you up for a nice career. Some operators may have a different philosophy, but the reality is Air Canada has one of the best safety records for a reason. Call it luck if you will, but I think it comes down to their process. If you well lets say F- Up .... then they dismiss you.

One of those barriers in society i suppose

Man Vs Woman
Society Vs First Nations
French Vs English
Liberal VS Conservative
Old Pilot Vs Young Pilot

I don't think anyone was implying that it's a 'crime' to go from a King Air to a mid sized jet. The consensus seemed to be favoring some 704 time (ie. B1900). It helps.