Time and experience???

Mig29 · Post by **Mig29** » Fri May 06, 2005 10:30 am

Ok guys, one question.

You know how frustrating is getting those first couple hundred hours in the beginning...and I am sure you've been turned down a number of times by employers, saying that you don't have enough for the INSURANCE minimums. Ok, I understand that.

Now, how come some employers will use you on the ground (use you, unless you are lucky to avoid this position in the first place) and hire you with bare CPL/MIFR...and then after 1-2 years will put you on the aircraft, whether its a float plane or a single on wheels...and you can THEN legally fly it with those same hours you had before, but were not acceptable for the insurance requirements

What a freaking scam this industry is....they treat you like garbage as if you just came out of elementary school! Use you, and dispose you when you are not needed anymore....or you end up just quitting the place.

(I know that there are some legit and descent companies, who will keep their word, so exclude them please from this

)

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Fri May 06, 2005 10:34 am

Now, how come some employers will use you on the ground (use you, unless you are lucky to avoid this position in the first place) and hire you with bare CPL/MIFR...and then after 1-2 years will put you on the aircraft, whether its a float plane or a single on wheels...and you can THEN legally fly it with those same hours you had before, but were not acceptable for the insurance requirements

Good question. the only answer i can think of is that after a couple of years of service the employer will go to bat for you (so to speak) with the insurance company, and maybe pay a little more for insurance for your loyalty. just a thought.

Mig29 · Post by **Mig29** » Fri May 06, 2005 10:45 am

could well be....but I must admit, its more of BSing than anything else...cause when they can chose and they see you are desperate, then they act like this.
No offence to anyone, but this is one of those times when UNIONS actaully help, becasue they wouldn't allow for this sort of crap. Just look at unionized vs. non-unionized companies.

Ducky · Post by **Ducky** » Fri May 06, 2005 10:49 am

Mig29 wrote:What a freaking scam this industry is....they treat you like garbage as if you just came out of elementary school! Use you, and dispose you when you are not needed anymore....or you end up just quitting the place.

(I know that there are some legit and descent companies, who will keep their word, so exclude them please from this )

Huge scam! I'm finding out that the more qualified of a mechanic you are, the less chance of finding a job unless you move into a more manager-type role or start your own little business contracting.

No Conflict · Post by **No Conflict** » Fri May 06, 2005 11:09 am

Mig29 wrote:
Now, how come some employers will use you on the ground (use you, unless you are lucky to avoid this position in the first place) and hire you with bare CPL/MIFR...and then after 1-2 years will put you on the aircraft, whether its a float plane or a single on wheels...and you can THEN legally fly it with those same hours you had before, but were not acceptable for the insurance requirements

I've been thinking the same thing.. I've been told the same story about 6 times in the last 4 months...

"Insurance won't let us put you on the plane now, but slave on the ramp for 1-2 years, and then we'll put you right seat part time...."

What a load of Horse Sh*t.... I've got no problem slaving on the ramp, but why feed me the BS line??

oh well....

evalle · Post by **evalle** » Fri May 06, 2005 12:01 pm

I think companies wants 2 things:

- cheap labor on the ramp (pilot sign up with the promise of a pilot-job and they consider themself fortunate)

-cheap pilots (once you start flying they know that you are a low-timer and again consider yourself "lucky" for a pilot position) after 3 years on the ramp.

This is not a scam, this is slavery....
Who's fault is? Pilots obviously!!!!!!! if we don't stick toghether and refuse this kind of condition and/or get all the industry unionized... :evil:

Swamp Donkey · Post by **Swamp Donkey** » Fri May 06, 2005 12:47 pm

ahhh....another bitter little bunch of ignorant ingrates!

Perhaps you would like a starting position in the left seat of a 767?

Lets put this in perspective;

Is aviation all about who can fly? What about knowing the A/C, the routes, loading?

The reason we have dockhands and rampies is an introduction to the operations end of a business which depends on proper teamwork to get the job done...safe! As a ground based employee, you learn the proper loading techniques, aircraft handling, and when you do ride alongs as a swamper or whatever, you learn the routes and different conditions you can expect as a pilot. During this time you can learn the aircraft systems by helping maintenance with DI's engine changes or whatever.

The chief pilot also has a chance to see your attitude and work ethics, not unlike a probationary period in any other job. He will then go to bat for you, as you will have some flight time or knowledge of the operations, which insurance companies require.

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Fri May 06, 2005 1:04 pm

That is true, however, some of what these people expect to pay is garbage.

No Conflict · Post by **No Conflict** » Fri May 06, 2005 1:18 pm

Swamp Donkey wrote:ahhh....another bitter little bunch of ignorant ingrates!

Perhaps you would like a starting position in the left seat of a 767?

Lets put this in perspective;

Is aviation all about who can fly? What about knowing the A/C, the routes, loading?

Playing the devil's advocate here.... ok, I see your point... SO, when you first start in AC on say, a airbus 321, following your logic, you should work on the ramp for a year, getting to know the plane, the routes and the loading of the a/c. After all, it is a different a/c then you've ever flown and a different operation, and you will be going in under lower mins and worse weather.

BUT, I agree, the CP should get to know you... but why not put you part time in the plane and full time on the ramp? NO, I don't want right seat on a 67, but FO on a 'ho or similar would be nice.

ahhh....another bitter little bunch of ignorant ingrates!

Nope, not me, can't say I'm bitter... I knew before starting the first job is the toughest to get... but if I wasn't in such a good mood right now, I just might take offense to this remark.

evalle · Post by **evalle** » Fri May 06, 2005 1:21 pm

...and here another guy from the swamp....
Do you know any lawyer that is hired to answer the phone for 2 years? i don't....
Nobody wants to start in a 767, however nobody wants to remember macdonald pay-rate with nostalgy.
Whith you guys is all about learning, safety, proper way to do stuff, professionalism, but at the end the pay is SH.T!!!! :evil:
Even when you get to a fly-job you still make the pay of a ugly secretary!!
In other country pilots start at 4-500 hours on executive jet and the safety rating are not worse than Canada or US!!!

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Fri May 06, 2005 4:45 pm

evalle wrote:...
Do you know any lawyer that is hired to answer the phone for 2 years? i don't....

Maybe you don't know any lawyers than... What do you expect to come staight out of law school and get on as full partner at a firm? Or maybe even go straight to work as a trial lawyer? Forget it, lawyers work their bag off articling and doing just about anything they're asked to do when they first start out, and often it's volunteer or for very little pay.

Kelly Harmsworth · Post by **Kelly Harmsworth** » Fri May 06, 2005 6:39 pm

He who signs the cheque decides what your job is. Thats the privilage of being the boss. If people don't like it then they have the option of buying an airplane and starting their own company.

Mig29 · Post by **Mig29** » Fri May 06, 2005 6:53 pm

I gotta get on this, sorry I started it I guess

first of all, I agree about the indoctrination of the pilot, getting the respect from CP and all that. BUT, why do you got to eat garbage and live like the biggest loser! No offence, you graduate from a college, or a university program, or even a flight school, and not everyone is in their early 20s, so off you go to get a job, and you get treated like that. People have other things in life but just building time! I give respect to places like Little Red who get you on the ground for 2 weeks, then you fly a week and even get time off! Wow....how about more of these places, and they even pay you! That’s something.

And to add on with 'evalle' about Europe, Asia and other places....guys with 250 go onto FO or SO positions with their respective airlines, and they don’t seem to be falling out of sky often. So what is it! Loading and unloading and kissing ass to everyone or giving respect and getting respect that you would rather choose!?? Why does a pilot who has enough things to take care of (everyone nowadays wants to nail YOU for anything that goes wrong), has to 'do time' like some prisoner, just to get to fly a freaking 206 or even 172!!

give me a break!

Guys in WWII went flying more powerful a/c and life threatening missions with 10hr of solo and no line indoctrination into an enemy territory. And 50yrs after, you CANT fly a 172. Something is wrong here???

And how can you be safe after 2 years on the ramp...man you forget almost everything...and now you are suppose to be FO on a King!??? BS guys! I am sorry, but it doesn’t have to be like that, and personally I am not spending my best years somewhere up north, just to get somewhere ahead of the other guy. Will you regret more that you ended up at the same place two years behind the other guy while having a life and a girl and keeping your family intact? Or would you regret more, that your 2-3 years of life went, by getting treated like some outcast and risk losing more important things in life for it??

Wake up people!

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:42 am

Kelly Harmsworth wrote:He who signs the cheque decides what your job is. Thats the privilage of being the boss. If people don't like it then they have the option of buying an airplane and starting their own company.

Spoken like a true poor businessman...

The skills, competencies and attitude of your workers should determine their job, not the penny pincher.

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:39 am

I hear what everybody is saying. But didn't you know the industry was like that before you signed on? I'm a lowtimer, too, that has gotten lucky (or maybe put up with the system and have worked hard). But any anger I hold is for the program I went to that told me I could realistically be at Air Canada within 5 years. And what an idiot I was to believe it! Nothing has really changed over the past three and a half years, so why all the surprised faces? And as for that lawyer crap... guess what? You're not a lawyer! Are you smart? Want to make money? Go to ATC. Cuz this is it, boys... at least for the next few years.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat May 07, 2005 9:00 am

Mig 29....good post. Really. And some good points. Like I've been saying all along...hire a pilot to fly...hire a rampy to ramp! Pretty simple really. And the only op that always jumps down my throat when I say this is NAS. Wonder why? Hit a nerve? It is "slave labour", pure and simple. Wonder where the Swamp Donkey works??
And the insurance question? Suddenly after a year or two of slave labour. you're suddenly Okay?? What a load of crap!!

Kelly Harmsworth · Post by **Kelly Harmsworth** » Sat May 07, 2005 10:17 am

Yoyoma wrote:
Kelly Harmsworth wrote:He who signs the cheque decides what your job is. Thats the privilage of being the boss. If people don't like it then they have the option of buying an airplane and starting their own company.
Spoken like a true poor businessman...

The skills, competencies and attitude of your workers should determine their job, not the penny pincher.

It's not a question of pinching pennys. Its a question of people trying to tell us how our business should be ran. If I choose to (which I don't mind you) have a new hire work the ramp for any amount of time that is my choice. They then have the choice of going somewhere else. It's the same old union rehtoric where the employee should be handed anything he/she wants. News flash If my business goes under I'm out millions of dollars. compared to an employee who mearly has to find another job. Possibly in another industry.

In my company what determins a job is the job that needs doing. I don't think that's poor business.

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Sat May 07, 2005 10:44 am

What about your responsibility to your employees? You wouldn't have cheques to sign if you didn't have faithful employees to shovel the manure I agree that as an employee, if you sign on for something, don't be surprised if you get it. But I also believe that as an employer, if you promise something, don't be surprised if your employee expects it. To simply view an employee as somebody who can "merely find another job. Possibly in another industry" suggests a total lack of respect for the people helping earn the money to put food on your table, as well as for their goals. I don't think it should be a life and death decision for a healthy business to treat their employees like human beings. I've run 4 successful businesses in my time, having owned 2, and one thing I've found to be true is that your employees will only treat your customers as well as you treat your employees. THAT's what keeps you from folding.

frog · Post by **frog** » Sat May 07, 2005 10:59 am

4hrs,

I disagree, when a employee is treated like shit it does not mean that he is going to treat customers the same way. The reason is that a good employee still wants to be considered as a good proffessional. Also because it is bad enough to have a bad relationship with you boss without having a bad one with your customers too.
On the other hand, the employee will spend all his spare time to find another job! And that will not help the buisness for sure to have new employee every 3-6 months.
I have seen customers of a school getting really pissed off because they had to change 5 times of instructor during their PPL.

Kelly Harmsworth · Post by **Kelly Harmsworth** » Sat May 07, 2005 12:03 pm

4hrstovegas wrote:What about your responsibility to your employees? You wouldn't have cheques to sign if you didn't have faithful employees to shovel the manure I agree that as an employee, if you sign on for something, don't be surprised if you get it. But I also believe that as an employer, if you promise something, don't be surprised if your employee expects it. To simply view an employee as somebody who can "merely find another job. Possibly in another industry" suggests a total lack of respect for the people helping earn the money to put food on your table, as well as for their goals. I don't think it should be a life and death decision for a healthy business to treat their employees like human beings. I've run 4 successful businesses in my time, having owned 2, and one thing I've found to be true is that your employees will only treat your customers as well as you treat your employees. THAT's what keeps you from folding.

I'm not saying that employers should have free reign on treating employees anyway they want. What I am saying is that if I want to hire someone and have them work the ramp for 2 or 20 years before I decide to put them in a plane that is my choice. I bought the plane therefore I choose who flies it. You would not belive the number of retard pilots out there who barrel roll navajos. The only way to weed those people out is to get to know them over time. I don't belive I once advocated treating employees badly. It would be a stupid policy to practice. I belive that the success of a company starts with it's people. That being said it has to be the "right" people. Unfortunatly it takes time to find the right people. I'm fortunate enough at this stage to be a small enough operator, that I can hire people that I know personally. The time will come that I have to hire people I don't know so well. I'm sure when that happens I won't be just throwing them into an airplane untill I know the kind of person they are. What could possibly be wrong with that.

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Sat May 07, 2005 1:05 pm

KH: There's nothing wrong with that, as long as the rampies know what they're in for. And granted, if the guy is a moron, there's no obligation to put them on the line. But I think if that's the case, they should be told so. A lot of times, an employer has no intention of pushing that employee up, and will take advantage of that for as long as they can.

Frog: What you're saying is true of a few people, but not most. Obviously, any theory is a generalization. It's can't represent 100% of the population. But most disgruntled employees will not go out of their way for anybody, including customers, if they feel they have been cheated out of a legitimate promise, or have been outwardly mislead.

Mig29 · Post by **Mig29** » Sat May 07, 2005 3:17 pm

I agree with that employer has the choice and right to hire and keep you on the ground as long as he feels so (or as long as you're dumb to not speak out), but as '4hrstovegas' said: don’t fool your people by hiding the fact you wont ever upgrade them, OR making their life miserable after working for you 1-2 years, and then guy quitting on his own due to negative relationships and no hope. I had buddies who went up north, and most of them either quit after year and a half, because the operator said it will take another 1-2 (originally it was to be only 6-12months!!!), others folded (happens) and others got bypassed from guys outside or due to lack of MIFR (why did they not mention this when they hired the guy

)

And as Doc said....I am 100% with him, give rampies ramp, pilots planes, and dispatchers office. No offence but is an architect or engineer, suppose to work construction before he starts designing???? Or doctor clean hospital windows and drive a milk truck to prove him self. Or a cop, deliver donuts and coffee to his crew for a year before he gets an assignment???

And regarding the crazy ones who do loops in Navajos (wow, cant believe it

)....well this is where my opinions stands firm. People dismissed this as a joke and some agreed on it. Give all these guys a psychological/mental test on his initial medical (say for CAT I-II) and figure if the guy is stable for this job. Believe me....I had some guys at a place where I went who should not be flying a/c....scary

So that way, boss has only to worry about line indoctrinatino and about paying the guy a normal wage, and I am sure he wont regret it, cause he will get only RESPECT in return!!

When is it gonna stop....ramp, paying for training, living worse than on wellfare...guys elswhere are flying jets and turboprops with basic qualifications, but only here we have to be 'thankful' for getting sh3t

By the way, I new that things were bad before getting into this, but I did it because I LOVE my occupation, but I still have hope that things can change and be better for all!

350TT · Post by **350TT** » Sun May 08, 2005 2:38 am

EXCELLENT POST !! Wish this could be answered by more companies like Little Red... are there any more like them ? (A company that will hire newbies with a fresh CPL Multi IFR and actully let them fly right seat even if it's only one day a week, heck even if it was one day a month -- I think that's the best thing since sliced bread, absolutely amazing !!)

This is a generality but let's think of a job where you get trained for 2 weeks and are on probation for 3-6 months. Why could this type of thing not be adopted in aviation ? You get trained for two weeks specifically flying with the chief pilot who will assess you (make it one week if two is too much), also loading the aircraft, ride-alongs etc and he/she gets to decide how you fit in with the company. If you are deemed "not good enough" then you are told so and you can go on your merry way. If you are alright then you proceed to work ramp/dispatch/phones/cleaning or whatever else needs doing until the 3-6 month period where your personality and other attributes are also assessed and slowly get introduced back onto the line. Yes, you will become rusty and possibly even need an IFR renewal but at least you proved yourself to the company in the first two weeks and they know that it is highly likely for you to get back to that level and progress from there. It's also not possible to fire someone just for their personality so that issue is a tough one for employers I'm sure but I would think knowing if they are a good pilot right up front would also be worthwhile for both sides.

I do not profess to know how to run a business. I also knew I wouldn't be flying AC or WJ for at least 10yrs but I didn't expect to get paid less than unemployment insurance rates ! (or welfare as someone else had mentioned). That is just not right. Down with slave labour !!

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Sun May 08, 2005 7:37 am

Kelly Harmsworth wrote: In my company what determins a job is the job that needs doing. I don't think that's poor business.

No, not poor in the sense of weak but as in low operating or profit margin. You're managing the way they used to in the 60s-70s and fortunately for you, this is how Canadian aviation is ran. So you get away with it. Step into a different field, and you'll lose your head and underwear running a company like that.

I guess as long as you show respect to your workers, no harm is done...

evalle · Post by **evalle** » Mon May 09, 2005 5:25 am

It is funny to see employer getting defensive, when all they have to do is being honest... YOU WANT CHEAP LABOR AND YOU ARE USING THE SYSTEM!!!!
If you have an idiot who do loops in Navajos, his only choice probably is to be an instructor today, that will make more idiots out of one!!
I agree on coaching people (that is what i do at work every day), but why should i coach a pilot on how to drive a forklift?
My best friend in Italy, was hired to fly CJ2 with 400hours in one of the top executive company in europe, he always fly with expert captain and in 1.5 years he gained a lot of experience from them. Last time at his PPC he received compliment from all Cessna's crews on how proficent and good he is, this is coaching!!!! (and he make GOOD MONEY TOO!!).
In Canada you learn to fly from very good KIDS, that try to build LOCAL time, working their ass off to get a RAMP job!!!!
Plus, you all give me a break about "knowing the employee", all system work on racomandation too, if the kid is Paul Martin's son he would be fly 737 for 70K from the very first day!!! in any of your "perfect company".
4hr.
You must be a kid, the fact that a system does not work, doesn't mean i cannot be changed. That is why we vote and why in hystory, people with great carisma and visions made the difference. I fly because i love it!!!! not because company don't pay pilots!!!!

Time and experience???

Time and experience???

Re: Time and experience???

Re: Time and experience???