Better search and rescue in the north

[BE20 Driver]

After the spat of accidents in Yellowknife over the summer the government announced that they would not be placing additional search and rescue resources any further north than they are currently located.

If operation Nanuk had not been going on the best the military could have done was to get a herc from Winnipeg or Trenton. Response time would have been measured in days, not hours and minutes.

If Sunwest had not crashed in old town, paramedics would not have been able to treat survivors within minutes of that accident.

If I heard correctly Tindi sent their own Twin Otter on floats and a company helicopter out searching for the Caravan long before the military had finished their coffee and pre-flight briefing.

No to be clear, I'm not bashing the men and women who serve. I'm bashing the politicians who pull the strings. I live and work in the north and should not feel like I am a second class citizen when it comes having an accident. I fly people to places not served by roads. Travel by boat is impractical 9 months of the year so let's face it - people up here have to fly. The only people I have heard bemoaning the fact that there is no search and rescue north of 60 is the media and let's face it - they'll be onto some other crisis in a couple of weeks. The only way I see real change being made is to band together. As a professional group, we need to let our government know that we and the people we carry around are not just too expensive to help.

There has to be a better solution.

[old_man]

No to be clear, I'm not bashing the men and women who serve.

.............long before the military had finished their coffee and pre-flight briefing.

But to answer your question I think it simply comes down to money. Operating a Northern SAR base with both fixed wing and rotary wing assets would be hugely expensive.

[Axial Flow]

No to be clear, I'm not bashing the men and women who serve.

.............long before the military had finished their coffee and pre-flight briefing.

But to answer your question I think it simply comes down to money. Operating a Northern SAR base with both fixed wing and rotary wing assets would be hugely expensive.

It can't be much more cost than having 4 twin otters that do absolutely nothing...besides keeping the circuit clear of Russians !

[SAR_YQQ]

It can't be much more cost than having 4 twin otters that do absolutely nothing...

Careful posting about subjects that you clearly have zero understanding.
Those twin otters are highly tasked to fly further north than most of the northern operators in all of Yellowknife.

[old_man]

It can't be much more cost than having 4 twin otters that do absolutely nothing...besides keeping the circuit clear of Russians !

I would guess that it would be a lot lot more to operate a fleet of cormorants over twin otters.

[frozen solid]

It can't be much more cost than having 4 twin otters that do absolutely nothing...

Careful posting about subjects that you clearly have zero understanding.
Those twin otters are highly tasked to fly further north than most of the northern operators in all of Yellowknife.

Really? How much farther north have they been than the sea ice north of Ward Hunt? Last time I was there it was with a civilian operator out of Yellowknife. I guess it's possible they might go right to the pole, but not in the time I've been here, and certainly not as often as the Kenn Borek otters.

All due respect to the CF otter boys, but the civilian otter boys are no slouches, either. Much as I don't wish to talk about the recent horrors in Yellowknife, I feel compelled to agree with the point about the Tindi response, they were able to be there much more quickly than the CF would have been able to mount a response, and whatever form this response would have taken would not have been performed with any hardware currently based in Yellowknife.

Personally, I think it would be useful for the Armed forces to look into a system by which they could round up and press into service assets that are already based in the north. What if they were to come up with some kind of contract with a competent civil operator, like Air Tindi and/or a helicopter operator, whereby certain types of aircraft would be required to be available at certain reasonable but short notice, in return for a fee of course (which would cost the country less than basing dedicated crews and A/C in the community). The pilots involved in the contract would be required, and paid, to participate in additional training at regular intervals in order to have some consistency in their ability to fly SAR flights. Maybe even make them commissioned reservists? I know this sounds funny but this concept was bandied about briefly years ago on the subject of military use of civilian heavy-lift aircraft. I think it makes some sense, although it might require the CF to change some internal policy with respect to aircrew selection, it could certainly be done.

[godsrcrazy]

It can't be much more cost than having 4 twin otters that do absolutely nothing...

Careful posting about subjects that you clearly have zero understanding.
Those twin otters are highly tasked to fly further north than most of the northern operators in all of Yellowknife.

You are kidding me. Last i heard they don't even own a set of floats anymore. As far as being tasked to go further north then most of the Northern operator's. Well that maybe true Now but when i was working out of the North in several cases the Northern operators were sent in to get things set up for the military aircraft to come in.

Frozen solid you have a great idea. However maybe most Northern operators should participate in the training. Not all the crews just select crews. Depending on 1 or 2 operators is no better then the military as the chances of having the few trained crew and aircraft available during a busy season are probably next to zero. Tindi was fortunate to find the aircraft quickly. Most likely due to Satellite tracking. I do know of at least one past search were Civilian aircraft where told if they where in the same area as any military aircraft. The military aircraft would not decent below 4,000 agl. This would have put them above the cloud in a search.

[SAR_YQQ]

I think it would be useful for the Armed forces to look into a system by which they could round up and press into service assets that are already based in the north.

This is done all the time by the JRCC's. A helo asset is tasked (ie contracted) to go in a pick up stranded crew etc. Searching for downed aircraft is nothing too special of a skillset either - it's just a matter of technology - homing radios etc. It's the specialized skillset that a SARTech provides that is hard and expensive to replicate.

The military aircraft would not decent below 4,000 agl. This would have put them above the cloud in a search.

Military aircrew have the option of conducting a cloud break maneuver down to a 300' AWL ceiling.

[BE20 Driver]

Personally, I think it would be useful for the Armed forces to look into a system by which they could round up and press into service assets that are already based in the north. What if they were to come up with some kind of contract with a competent civil operator, like Air Tindi and/or a helicopter operator, whereby certain types of aircraft would be required to be available at certain reasonable but short notice, in return for a fee of course (which would cost the country less than basing dedicated crews and A/C in the community). The pilots involved in the contract would be required, and paid, to participate in additional training at regular intervals in order to have some consistency in their ability to fly SAR flights. Maybe even make them commissioned reservists? I know this sounds funny but this concept was bandied about briefly years ago on the subject of military use of civilian heavy-lift aircraft. I think it makes some sense, although it might require the CF to change some internal policy with respect to aircrew selection, it could certainly be done.

I'm really not trying to start a tinkling contest between military and civilian pilots. My comments were typed with tongue in cheek. As a former reservist, I have the upmost respect for those who serve. The fact remains that 440 Sqn doesn't have a set of floats nor do they have any formally trained float pilots. They couldn't have responded if the PM himself asked them to do so. Everything comes out of Edmonton or Winnipeg which might as well be the other side of the world when you're waiting for a response.

Now I think Frozen Solid hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I was thinking about when I typed the original post. To put things in perspective, often a civilian company can do something faster and cheaper than branches of the government can. Look at how CF primary flight training is done - by contracted civilians. I don't see any reason why it can't be the same with SAR north of 60. Due to budget constraints and other squadron duties, most military pilots fly 3-400 hours per year? On the civilian side, I've never flown less than 700 hours per year and I've done close to 1100 in the past 12 months. That doesn't make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination but it should at least make me rather competent. The concept of commissioned reservists wouldn't really need be different than how the Rangers are set up. They're civilians who occasionally get together and do some training exercises and go on patrols.

[Axial Flow]

It can't be much more cost than having 4 twin otters that do absolutely nothing...

Careful posting about subjects that you clearly have zero understanding.
Those twin otters are highly tasked to fly further north than most of the northern operators in all of Yellowknife.

I could fly to the North Pole and do nothing when I get there so what's your point ?

It's not their fault they are a transport sqdn with nothing to transport, why don't they make YZF a SARTech base and utilize assets they already have ?

[frozen solid]

I think it would be useful for the Armed forces to look into a system by which they could round up and press into service assets that are already based in the north.

This is done all the time by the JRCC's. A helo asset is tasked (ie contracted) to go in a pick up stranded crew etc. Searching for downed aircraft is nothing too special of a skillset either - it's just a matter of technology - homing radios etc. It's the specialized skillset that a SARTech provides that is hard and expensive to replicate.

If all your searching for downed aircraft has come down to nothing but being able to use technology, then that is a good thing for the people you were searching for. I have participated in searches which were a little more difficult due to ELTs not going off when they should have. Often the search takes place in the same weather that contributed to the victim aircraft being lost. I would have to say that it probably does require some guts and some alertness, if not a special skillset.

I do agree with you about SARTechs- In fact I think they are heroes, like many members of the Armed Forces.

However, in the accident that was referenced earlier, all the searching and rescuing that happened was performed by a civilian twin otter crew on floats, who located the aircraft in bad weather, beached their aircraft nearby and bushwacked to the scene and recovered the survivors. You cannot denigrate the efforts or the skills of this crew by crowing about the abilities of SARTechs who were nowhere nearby. There are people in the world besides the Canadian Forces who are good at what they do, even if it is difficult or dangerous, and have the personal strength to be able to do it. Sometimes I think military people forget this.

[down north]

Those twin otters are highly tasked to fly further north than most of the northern operators in all of Yellowknife.

I would have to disagree with this statement.

Our aircraft regularly visit locations such as Alert, Eureka, Many DEW line sites, Greenland, prepared and unprepared strips/lakes/frozen lakes and sea ice as far north as Ellesmere island. Many of these trips are contracted by DND themselves. In fact our aircraft have been sent on rescue missions when 440 station sixtied their own machine.

Our crews annually fly three to four times as much as DND Twin Otter crews and generally this is reflected in experience level.

I do very much like the idea of some sort of auxiliary civilian SAR capability. This service is very much needed in an area where SAR is virtually non-existent or hours away. Time is of the essence when it comes to saving lives. Some of the most high risk flying takes place in this part of the world. Yet in regard to SAR response time we seem to take a much lower priority than a recreational boater in the great lakes region.

I am extremely proud of how quickly a private company can mount an initiate it's own Search and Rescue effort. Unfortunately this is not an ideal solution.

[old_man]

If someone out there has a great idea or recommendation to improve SAR try calling/email these people. They are probably better equipped to answer your questions and in a better position to listen to your recommendations/suggestions.

Contact info for the Minister of National Defence

Contact info for the NSS

Contact info for the Chair of the NSS

Contact info for the 8 Wing Public Affairs Officer (Ask questions/make recommendations in regards to JRCC Trenton)

Oh, and of course
Contact info for CASARA (The civilian organization that the CF works with and trains with......... I think this is essentially what you are suggesting)

[godsrcrazy]

The military aircraft would not decent below 4,000 agl. This would have put them above the cloud in a search.

Military aircrew have the option of conducting a cloud break maneuver down to a 300' AWL ceiling.[/quote]


I may have not made myself clear. The ceiling was 2,000 AGL. The Military made it clear they would not put their aircraft below 4,000 AGL if Civilian aircraft where searching in the area. In other words if civilians are out searching they would not.

[Bobby868]

CASAR, (I'll let you all work out the acronym) We have a Yellowknife branch.

I've been flying in the north for years now. Would I like better SAR services? Yep! Do I want to pay for them? Nope!

I'm for smaller government and people looking after themselves. Air Tindi response is a prime example of why. Their response was faster, cheaper, and more specialized (float equipped) than what our government agencies could have provided.

[ozone]

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/b ... e-projects

Looks like the government is looking into maybe privatizing SAR. Would definitely cut costs that's for sure.

[godsrcrazy]

CASAR, (I'll let you all work out the acronym) We have a Yellowknife branch.

I've been flying in the north for years now. Would I like better SAR services? Yep! Do I want to pay for them? Nope!

I'm for smaller government and people looking after themselves. Air Tindi response is a prime example of why. Their response was faster, cheaper, and more specialized (float equipped) than what our government agencies could have provided.

Air Tindi response may have been faster and cheaper. That could be for 2 reason's. 1 maybe the ELT went off and they had an exact location or 2 they probably run a tracking system and had a last location. What happens when your ELT doesn't go off or you don't have tracking. From what i hear the weather that day was not great. I wonder how many companies would have started a search in that weather for someone else's aircraft.

[1000 HP]

CASAR, (I'll let you all work out the acronym) We have a Yellowknife branch.

I've been flying in the north for years now. Would I like better SAR services? Yep! Do I want to pay for them? Nope!

I'm for smaller government and people looking after themselves. Air Tindi response is a prime example of why. Their response was faster, cheaper, and more specialized (float equipped) than what our government agencies could have provided.

Good idea. A buddy of mine went missing once. The military did a great job with two hercs as well as Casara with 6 or 7 wheeled airplanes. Fact is my buddy smacked into a lake, and after searching for 11 hours, I found him with the company Beaver. I picked him up and made him fly back to base. Total cost for me: $1300 for fuel (which Casara re-imbursed us for) and 11 hours engine time. My buddy and his friend were fine.

[1000 HP]

Now I fly with a Spot. For $17 per year extra, I get $100,000 SAR expense coverage. Super cheap. Might be an idea.

[BE20 Driver]

Now I fly with a Spot. For $17 per year extra, I get $100,000 SAR expense coverage. Super cheap. Might be an idea.

Great idea except that if you look at their coverage map, coverage basically stops at mainland Canada. Most of the operators out of Yellowknife fly further north than that. I wouldn't count on a SPOT working any better than an ELT.

Interesting note about the privatization of SAR services. I've never heard that before now. The government should piss or get off the pot though. SAR services and aircraft should have been updated by now. This is turning into a Sea King/Cormorant helicopter fiasco.

[old_man]

Looks like the government is looking into maybe privatizing SAR. Would definitely cut costs that's for sure.

I wouldn't count on it. Either services will get cut or it will turn out to be more expensive. They will probably under bid the contract like crazy, say it will be super awesome. Then, once the gov't has lost it SAR capability they will come out and say it will actually cost more and if we don't pay then SAR will go down.

Just a cynical guess though. No facts to back it up.

[digits_]

Now I fly with a Spot. For $17 per year extra, I get $100,000 SAR expense coverage. Super cheap. Might be an idea.

Great idea except that if you look at their coverage map, coverage basically stops at mainland Canada. Most of the operators out of Yellowknife fly further north than that. I wouldn't count on a SPOT working any better than an ELT.

I tried it this summer and it works all the way up to the north pole. Just one test, but still, better results than their map.

[LousyFisherman]

Great idea except that if you look at their coverage map, coverage basically stops at mainland Canada. Most of the operators out of Yellowknife fly further north than that. I wouldn't count on a SPOT working any better than an ELT.

My SPOT worked fine around Kugluktuk and Cambridge Bay

LF

[justwork]

There was a great W5 episode a few weeks back where they looked at the SAR operations in the Atlantic. It amazed me. What it comes down to, and always does, is money. They had stories of a boat being capsized by rouge wave, everyone surviving and scrambling atop the overturned boat... by the time rescue showed up, most were dead. Basically stating that if you require SAR after 4pm and before 8am, you're going to have a hard time. When people survive an accident, and die waiting hours for rescue, the system needs review.

[old_man]

There was a great W5 episode a few weeks back where they looked at the SAR operations in the Atlantic. It amazed me. What it comes down to, and always does, is money. They had stories of a boat being capsized by rouge wave, everyone surviving and scrambling atop the overturned boat... by the time rescue showed up, most were dead. Basically stating that if you require SAR after 4pm and before 8am, you're going to have a hard time. When people survive an accident, and die waiting hours for rescue, the system needs review.

Yes, after 4pm and before 8am (these times can be amended during times of heightened risk) the response time is called '2hrs'. That's the maximum allowed, in reality it is ASAP and much quicker (I googled for a while and it looks like on or about the 60min mark).

But you are absolutely right, it all comes down to resources(aka money). If people want much quicker response times and more assests it will cost more. Canada is a huge and vast country with some very inhospitable terrain/water and a very small population (i.e. tax base). To put it into perspective the US Coast Guard has twice as many Rescue helicopter bases as we do helicopters.