Departing with Frost

[whiteguy]

Tis the season so make sure you walk back far enough in the cabin to inspect the spoilers and ailerons, not just the fuel tanks for frost Westjeters. You should know by now that clear skies overnight creates frost, especially on the thinest parts of the wing and stab.

If Transport was riding in the back you would have been busted this morning Captain.

Whiteguy,

The above quote is the first full post of the thread. Not knowing where the aircraft departed from, what the weather conditions where, when the aircraft was last flown or what the temperature of the fuel was, I came up with a plausible senerio. For this you say you are "shocked at the comments of the other respondants"?????

Once again I will state that over the years (about 6000hours 737) I've seen, from the cabin windows, what I thought was frost on the wing(including trailing edge devices) and called the deicers for a spray. After they completed a tactile inspection, I have on a number of those occasions being told it was moisture not frost, however they would spray me if I wanted it. The times it was just moisture I refused the spray. The morale of the story is that if I, with about 6000 hours on the 737 can mistake moisture for frost from looking out a cabin window, I suspect someone with about 4000 hours on the 737 can probably make the same mistake, just as I suspect someone with 10000 hours can make the same mistake.

As far as you pulling your application....Ok....

ps if you like, feel free to PM me your name and phone number and I'll let DP know you don't want him to call you.

Where in my post did I say I'm pulling my application?

I'd have to apply first!

[Biff]

Tis the season so make sure you walk back far enough in the cabin to inspect the spoilers and ailerons, not just the fuel tanks for frost Westjeters. You should know by now that clear skies overnight creates frost, especially on the thinest parts of the wing and stab.

If Transport was riding in the back you would have been busted this morning Captain.

Whiteguy,

The above quote is the first full post of the thread. Not knowing where the aircraft departed from, what the weather conditions where, when the aircraft was last flown or what the temperature of the fuel was, I came up with a plausible senerio. For this you say you are "shocked at the comments of the other respondants"?????

Once again I will state that over the years (about 6000hours 737) I've seen, from the cabin windows, what I thought was frost on the wing(including trailing edge devices) and called the deicers for a spray. After they completed a tactile inspection, I have on a number of those occasions being told it was moisture not frost, however they would spray me if I wanted it. The times it was just moisture I refused the spray. The morale of the story is that if I, with about 6000 hours on the 737 can mistake moisture for frost from looking out a cabin window, I suspect someone with about 4000 hours on the 737 can probably make the same mistake, just as I suspect someone with 10000 hours can make the same mistake.

As far as you pulling your application....Ok....

ps if you like, feel free to PM me your name and phone number and I'll let DP know you don't want him to call you.

Where in my post did I say I'm pulling my application?

I'd have to apply first!

I'm sorry, I don't know why I had your name in the post, it should have been KBAman. I'll blame it on the late night. Once again, I apologize and I'll edit the original version.

[jjj]

KBAman,

you've pulled your application because of this thread - are you serious?

Come to think of it - about 20 years ago I was workin' the ramp when a Borek machine rolled in. Out popped two of the dirtiest, scruffiest, foul-mouthed, rude son-of-a bitches that ever took to the skies. I said to myself, I think I'll pull my resume because obviously they're all a bunch of baboons over there.

Just because a few people like LisaS get their backs up when called to the mat doesn't mean the whole 1000+ pilots are un-professional at WestJet. Give your head a shake. I don't dismiss that a few cowboys linger - they lurk in every flight department around the planet. There are always those that think they're smarter than manuals. Fortunately they are not looked up to and fortunately they do not set the tone of a safety culture.


Peace out.

JJJ

[Jastapilot]

A rampie wrote me up last year for refusing his determination that my aircraft needed deicing. Prior to our conversation, I had looked out the overwing window and observed something on the wing that looked exactly like frost. I checked the temperature(+3), and also happened to know the overnight low never went below +2. Since I wanted to be positive, I went outside and performed a tactile inspection and lo and behold, it was dew on the wing. I say again, the dew looked exactly like frost to me, the guy with tons of experience.

Not everything is as it seems.

Only looking at the wing is a poor at best method of determining if you're safe to fly. Years ago the tactile most likely saved my life since the clear ice covering the entire plane due to freezing rain was virtually invisible on the aircraft I was supposed to fly. The plane was fully loaded, passengers boarded, the captain sitting in his seat with an engine running... and I was last to board and noticed something 'funny' over the top of the cabin door. Instead of shrugging off the tiny skiff of snow I observed, I went back down the stairs and ran my hand along the trailing edge flaps and found a solid layer of curling-ice-quality-pebbled clear ice covering the wing and fuselage 100%.
The lighting conditions on the ramp that morning made the ice 100% invisible to the eye, but stuck out like a sore thumb under a tactile.

[mulligan]

interesting picture back there and it got me thinking. I've been at this a long time and am now starting to fly with F/Os who don't remember a time before Type 4!
It certainly looks like the wing is illegal and had to be sprayed. So here's a test. If you had gotten aboard in the dark and fell asleep and then woke up just as the airplane was taxiing to position, looked out the window and seen that wing would you have:
A) Jumped out of your seat and demanded that the F/As call the flight deck and tell the crew not to depart.
B) Kept quiet and hoped for the best.
C) Gone back to sleep knowing that, while illegal, there was no danger involved.

[rudder]

22 years after Dryden and some people still don't get it.

Further, there is a CAR's requirement to brief the passengers before departure about the need for deicing. If a crew suspects contamination such that a tactile inspection was required, wouldn't that also be a good reason to brief the pax even if deicing is deemed unnecessary?

[jjj]

22 years after Dryden and some people still don't get it.

Rudder, what is it about this thread that invokes a remark like that?

In fact, do you know anything substantial about the lessons learned from the Dryden fiasco that correlate with this thread?

You seem to be implying something but make no clear point. Could you please elaborate.


JJJ

[Disco Stu]