Pilots contract

[rudder]

CR's objective is not to open a new operation, it is to move as much as possible existing work into a low cost in-house division of AC. He doesn't want to set up a new international Operating Certificate, new SOC, new Crew Sked, new Maint - he actually would be better served to use as much as possible of the existing AC infrastructure. I am not sure that it could even work if he did not.

In order for AC shareholders to benefit at all from the initiative it must be an in-house operation. Why would they support outsourcing revenue?

[Big Pistons Forever]

CR's objective is not to open a new operation, it is to move as much as possible existing work into a low cost in-house division of AC. He doesn't want to set up a new international Operating Certificate, new SOC, new Crew Sked, new Maint - he actually would be better served to use as much as possible of the existing AC infrastructure. I am not sure that it could even work if he did not.

In order for AC shareholders to benefit at all from the initiative it must be an in-house operation. Why would they support outsourcing revenue?

If this is truly CR's objective then the LOCO is doomed. Every mainline that has tried an in house supported LOCO has failed. CR is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic with all the LOCO Smoke and Mirrors. Air Canada's Niche is as a Full Service international airline. He needs to keep his eye on the ball and step one is to make his employees feel they are part of the solution not the problem......

[Norwegianwood]

He needs to keep his eye on the ball and step one is to make his employees feel they are part of the solution not the problem......

Oh boy, now there's a statement. You listening CR??????

[CANAM]

I'm not an aviation consultant, expert or pundant, but I think there are several ways to implement a LCC. You don't need to violate the pilot's contract either. You don't need to get another operating certificate. You get an airline to do the flying for you and invoke a codeshare. SkyRegional fits the bill on many levels. Through their experience with SkyService, they have people with A320, A330 and B757 operating knowledge. They may even still have the certificate alive somewhere. There was a good rumor back in 2004 that United wanted SkyWest to operate A320s under their TED brand and then codeshare it back for ticketing on ual.com.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I'm not an aviation consultant, expert or pundant, but I think there are several ways to implement a LCC. You don't need to violate the pilot's contract either. You don't need to get another operating certificate. You get an airline to do the flying for you and invoke a codeshare. SkyRegional fits the bill on many levels. Through their experience with SkyService, they have people with A320, A330 and B757 operating knowledge. They may even still have the certificate alive somewhere. There was a good rumor back in 2004 that United wanted SkyWest to operate A320s under their TED brand and then codeshare it back for ticketing on ual.com.

CR would love to do this but the AC collective agreement expressly prohibits another carrier from operating jet equipment as a code share outside of the Star Alliance. IF CR seriously pursued this, then ACPA absolutely must absolutely convince CR that this will result in a fight to the death, as capitulation will mean the end of the job of Air Canada pilot as we know it.

[SilentMajority]

I do not believe that our Scope Clause will be able to prevent Air Canada from becoming involved with a new Low Cost Carrier.

Research on JetStar's humble beginnings makes for some interesting reading. Qantas pilots initially scoffed at the idea, apparently believing that the LCC would fall flat on it's face within 18 months....(sound familiar?)

JetStar's fleet now includes 320's, 330-200's plus an order for 15 787's....totalling 100 aircraft (incl. orders). This does not include the order (through Qantas) for 110 A320's in October of this year. Those aircraft are destined for JetStar's new subsidiaries ...yup they're branching out.

If AC is still talking about starting an LCC and is interested in our involvement.....I hope we have both ears open.

[yycflyguy]

If AC is still talking about starting an LCC and is interested in our involvement.....I hope we have both ears open.

I'm all in too. Same airplane and same company? Same pay and work conditions though.

[ratherbee]

BPF,

Our CBA, or contract, expired in April. It remains in force until the Conciliation process is over and we are in a legal strike/lockout position. Then the Company can pull Article 1.10 and any other provision they don't like. You can't hide behind an expired agreement - you need to negotiate a new one or face the consequences.

[Big Pistons Forever]

BPF,
you need to negotiate a new one or face the consequences.

How true. You do not get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. ACPA has to be really careful on what they want, because when they get it there is no going back. 1.10 can't be pulled if the pilot group decide that it remain or no deal.......and have the stones to vote for the future, and not throw all the junior pilots under the bus......

[N8]

and not throw all the junior pilots under the bus......

You don't know how good it feels to read that. Thank you.

[ratherbee]

The junior pilots might be thrown under the bus by the economy, a government arbitrated agreement or by a bunch of incompetents. We need growth to protect our junior pilots not rhetoric.

[the original tony]

In all honesty it's the companies job to throw all of us under the bus, and ours to fight back.
We're all mad at Calin for screwing us over, no growth, no jobs......
Our own pilots don't want to retire and let us advance!!!!
How can we be mad at management when our own brethren give us the reach around?
Yes....... it's all for our own good, and we will all want the option to stay. blah blah...
Get our own act together and then we can criticize the rest.

Tony

Junior FO in perpetuity.

[LeadingEdge]

If I was Junior at AC right now, I would leave for the sandbox ASAP...

[yycflyguy]

If I was Junior at AC right now, I would leave for the sandbox ASAP...

Yeah, who would want to stick around for 1000 retirements over the next 7 years and 787's arriving in 2 years. That would really suck.

[LeadingEdge]

If I was Junior at AC right now, I would leave for the sandbox ASAP...

Yeah, who would want to stick around for 1000 retirements over the next 7 years and 787's arriving in 2 years. That would really suck.

Well according to the fly till you die group, mandatory retirement is all but gone... So what 1000 retirements?? More like years of stagnation or layoff. While we are on that topic, just how is the mothercorp going to pay for the "awards", the "returning" 200+ Pilots??

Think that 787 is coming to AC, you may want to have a read of Calin's low cost Jetsgo book...

CCAA Déjà vu...

want me to continue?

[FADEC]

The crucial thing ACPA needs to do is get all the flying back on the Mainline. As long as AC outsources flying, ACPA Pilots will lose. CR doesn't really care who does the flying, he just wants to look financially good. Give a rate for each type and get the flying back.

As for retirements, they will continue, voluntary rather than mandatory, but they will still happen. Most are fed up before 60, and it will balance out after a short period of adjustment. Anyone who stays helps the Pension Deficit; this is good for everyone.

Some of the new ACPA "Management" are noticeably smarter than the previous bunch; hopefully this will improve things.

[LeadingEdge]

As for retirements, they will continue, voluntary rather than mandatory, but they will still happen. Most are fed up before 60, and it will balance out after a short period of adjustment. Anyone who stays helps the Pension Deficit; this is good for everyone.

And you make this statement based upon what?? It is more likely that 65 will be the new normal retirement age (for pension) and that YOU will take the penalty for early retirement...

So the junior guy gets in the rear again... Delayed career progression, delayed earnings, delayed mandatory retirement(now 65) and now low cost.

With the transfer of all the proposed flying to LCC, just how viable do you think your top hat is?? Same pension obligations, 1/3rd smaller airline - you do the math. How about I spell out the answer out for you - CCAA.

You might want to think about that before you come back and "un vest" your pension.

LE

[777longhaul]

WHAT IF.......

What if...AC/acpa win the final court case, and the 200 plus pilots, are NOT back under the acpa contract, and, CR decides, that AC will start a LCC outside of acpa? Who is going to fly, maintain, and work at LCC, have you even thought of that. There are qualified, licenced, pilots, maintenance, reservations, airport staff that are AC-force retired, who are going to be hired at the LCC.

The transfer of flying, to LCC, will be very steady, and will result in a very large reversal of progression at AC.

acpa, needs to get this under control, and real quick, in other words, in this TA1 that will be a cluster operation, shoved down everyones throat from the Conciliatior/ARB.

CR, does not fear anyone in acpa. He did not back in the days he was Milton's right hand man, and he most certainly wont now. He has the complete backing of the government, and he will do as he pleases.

[FADEC]

The important point in my post was to get all the flying into the Mainline; stop the Airline from getting smaller. IF CR can get his LCC off the ground, and decides that retired AC personnel are the way to go, he may well have enough Pilots to staff it. It is up to ACPA to ensure that the flying is done by ACPA Pilots.

As for Retirement, get over it; every other jurisdiction has made the change without any noticeable disruption, so why should this group be any different? In any case, if I understand what the various "Age 60" posters have been saying about the pending Legislation, there will be no Mandatory Retirement; not 60, not 65.

[LeadingEdge]

I have news for you, the last thing that any LCC will do is staff an airline with a bunch of ex-AC, bitter, twisted, Pilots, FA's, & MTC etc...

I can just imagine you pulling a CARS max duty day with only two Pilots at age 65... Good luck with that one.

LE

[Norwegianwood]

The important point in my post was to get all the flying into the Mainline; stop the Airline from getting smaller. IF CR can get his LCC off the ground, and decides that retired AC personnel are the way to go, he may well have enough Pilots to staff it. It is up to ACPA to ensure that the flying is done by ACPA Pilots.

As for Retirement, get over it; every other jurisdiction has made the change without any noticeable disruption, so why should this group be any different? In any case, if I understand what the various "Age 60" posters have been saying about the pending Legislation, there will be no Mandatory Retirement; not 60, not 65.

[Norwegianwood]

I have news for you, the last thing that any LCC will do is staff an airline with a bunch of ex-AC, bitter, twisted, Pilots, FA's, & MTC etc...

I can just imagine you pulling a CARS max duty day with only two Pilots at age 65... Good luck with that one.

LE

They "Pilots at age 65" are probably the only ones with the cajungas to call the "CARS max duty day" and make it stick! The know how comes with years of experience and not with a "hot off the press" license and a "we're better" attitude.....

Oh dam! can't put an old smart head on young shoulders, me wrong again!!!

[DrBoeing]

I have news for you, the last thing that any LCC will do is staff an airline with a bunch of ex-AC, bitter, twisted, Pilots, FA's, & MTC etc...

I can just imagine you pulling a CARS max duty day with only two Pilots at age 65... Good luck with that one.

LE

I can not speak for the pilots or FA's but for those of us in maintenance, CR would be a fool to not go with us, not just for our knowledge on the aircraft but rather because our pay sucks so bad that we are not even in the top 10 in wages anymore.
Added to that AC filing for conciliation when there was not even an impasse tell all of us in maintenance that once again our back sides are going to be sore and the playing field will once again not be leveled!

[777longhaul]

Leading Edge

It is not about bitter and twisted, the majority are not, in all the various departments of AC, including the force retired pilots. Some are, but that is the same in any type of large corporation.

It is....all about money. money. money. Remember, it does not have to make business sense, this is about perceptions, and the all out drive to get AC stock off the muddy bottom, so Milton, CR, and crowd, can sell their remaing stocks, etc. Zoom climb, and then crash.

CR will be able to staff his LCC with all the various levels of staffing, (pilots included) for far less than he is paying them at the mainline. Why....because, they will all be collecting AC pensions, and Canada Pension, so they will be paid less by CR LCC, and they will have a fully qualified motivated, experienced work force. Put your shoes up on CR's desk, for a moment, and just think about this. What do you see??

acpa, has to see this.....and get the force retired pilots BACK into the acpa contract. Othewise, one of the possible senarios, is that the CR LCC will be growing, at a great rate, and AC mainline will be shrinking at the same rate. The government of the day, is going to back CR LCC, NOT acpa. So go to grievance all you want (acpa) the government is going to offer up CR LCC. Just look at the best example, Jet Star. They dont even have Quantas pensions, and yet they are growing and Quantas is shrinking, and locked in bitter fights with management. Given the current government situation, in Canada, with the AC ticket agents, and the AC flight attendants, the pilots will get the same hammer from Lisa, (labour minister) with the full backing of the federal government, and the genie will be out of the bottle.

This is going to turn into a giant cluster fk. And everyone will loose.

acpa needs to get control of this situation. acpa, needs all the pilots, under the same contract.

[bearinmind]

Re fadec's comments,

Alaska was looking at selling off its Horizion wing in August, and they were the last hold out. The model in the US is to farm out more and more regional work in an effort to reduce legacy costs. The regionals started with 1900's and are now flying the emb and the small 319's (i might be wrong on the 319's). Its a teir 1.5 that CR is trying to create. His argument will look something like this, 'Look at AA, they are sinking under their own legacy costs and are going to put thousands out of work, what will that do for their economy. I need this low cost model to compete with discount us regionals, and West Jet or we are going to do the same thing.' He is going to get the govt support with that. He has made a move to bring another regional airline in to compete with us and staffed it with Skyservice people that are ready to take a bigger stake.

The regionals are showing profit, based on the structure of the CPA, and we are not but that is part of the design. Make lower cost look better, and we look worse, and cr has more fuel for his fire.

So CR cant do what he wants to do on his own, he needs Harper, through Lisa Ratt, to support him. If this is the case, CR is not our opponent, Harper is. I would suggest to the NC and MEC that we go after Harpers willingness to wade into this fight. Advertising works, and we should spend a little money in a national paper and show the public what our value is and how 'big business' is farming our jobs out to lower cost less experienced staff. I think it will be effective.