Realistic ADF/NDB trainer?

[squirrely]

Hello everyone,

After spending hours practicing and perfecting my NDB holds and approach's on my flight sim, I went up for a re-current training flight and got my butt kicked. During my initial IFR training, the in-flight portion for ADF/NDB usage was very limited, and for obvious operational advantages, my real world IFR flying has been heavily GPS based. My problem is I've only practiced with ADF's/NDB's that have no errors. I found that I had trouble tracking inbound, and intercepting the final course inbound from the procedure turn (things which I can do fine in the sim)

I'm wondering if there are trainers out there that are more realistic?

[Bushav8er]

Practice.

Sounds like you know the 'sight picture' and how to do it

I found that I had trouble tracking inbound, and intercepting the final course inbound from the procedure turn (things which I can do fine in the sim)

...just need more practice in an aircraft, and think 'bracketing', seems that is were you want to focus.

[Colonel Sanders]

You say you can track an NDB inbound or outbound
in the sim just fine, but did your instructor dial in some
decent (eg 20 or 30 knot) crosswind aloft for you to
deal with? And did the crosswind back and decrease
as you descended? I might dial in 30 knots of crosswind
at procedure turn alt, and zero on the ground. Or even
10 knots from the other direction!

If you can do the above effortlessly in the sim, I might
suggest checking the quadrantal error of the ADF in your
aircraft.

Like a compass, this is easily done if you have an NDB
right off the end of your runway (usually 3 or 4 miles).
Taxi onto the runway, and line yourself up with the runway
and note the error of the ADF. Repeat for every 45 degrees
of heading change. Is the ADF system error less than 10
degrees on all headings? If not, get it corrected.

Next thing is to NOT chase the needle. You should have
learned this in the sim, but ... navigation with an ADF is
performed primarily using a heading, which you maintain.

Allow the needle to wiggle around, especially as you get close
to the NDB. Be slow to change your heading. Don't chase
the needle - you're going to end up with large heading
deviations as you pass the NDB otherwise.

[Shiny Side Up]

Allow the needle to wiggle around, especially as you get close
to the NDB. Be slow to change your heading. Don't chase
the needle - you're going to end up with large heading
deviations as you pass the NDB otherwise.

The main reason for this is I haven't seen a simulator that accurately simulates the bank error that an ADF has. Much like when using the compass, you can't count on an accurate reading when you're banked with the ADF. The problem is worst close to the station (most commonly makes for errors when people are introduced to NDB holds and approaches), So it can't be stressed enough to be dilligent on heading holding and not to be needle chasing. It should be noted as well that most older ADF sets will always have a bit of needle wiggle when the set is operating correctly - if the needle freezes, it usually means the set has went kaput, or is in the REC position.

[squirrely]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice. I think the bank error was my biggest problem as well as chasing the needle to much. Looks like I need some more patience and practice!

Happy Holidays

[Big Pistons Forever]

First off don't forget that what you get tested on when you do the ride has very little to do with how IFR is actually flown in the real world. Use of the NDB being a particularly good example. In the real world there are only three uses for the ADF

1) To listen to the Hockey game when you are stuck on the evening charter while your buddies are in front of the wide screen with a twofor and an extra large meat lovers, extra cheese with a side of hot wings (the BASTARDS !)

2) To help maintain situational awareness when you only have GPS raw data with no moving map. Dialing the NDB when it is the FAF gives you a relative bearing and thus an indication of where you are as you get vectors to final

3) A sanity check on the LNAV or overlay GPS approach. If it is pointing more or less straight ahead when you are established on the final approach course , life is good.

However you still have to pass the ride before you can go back to IFR in this century. Unfortunately this may actually involve NDB procedures without GPS primary data .
First off I must emphasize the aim is not to prove you are the ace of the base in the arcane and largely irrelevant skill of flying NDB procedures, it is to pass the ride. There are obviously 2 basic procedures you have to deal with, NDB holds and (Very) non precision NDB approaches.

For holds the 2 things essential to success. First is a good handle on the upper level winds. With any luck you can make an educated guess as to what corrections to apply to the inbound and outbound legs before you even start the hold. Ideally the examiner will be so impressed with your proactivity that you will not have to do much actually flying in the hold. The second is to home the beacon when you think you are close. The secret to not screwing up the hold is to pass directly over the beacon as this is the only time you positively know where you are. The same with the entry procedure. Don't get fancy with the wind corrections make sure you are heading directly back for the beacon.

For approaches the secret is to give yourself lots of room to get lined up on the final approach track because you can't descend until you are with in 10 degs. If you are in tight and you roll out on the final approach track but find out you are not lined up you are screwed. Most NDB approaches have the beacon as the FAF and so you have a few miles to go to the runway after you pass the beacon. Again when you figure you are close, home the beacon and then when the beacon starts to do do the big dance, turn to the inbound heading. If you are sure you have a cross wind then add or subtract 5 degs but don't try to track outbound until you are at least a minute outbound and then don't put any big corrections in because they will probably be wrong.

You won't be getting any "4" grades following my advice but you will do well enough to pass the ride every time.

Except for basic orientation sims are not much use because unlike the aircraft ADF the sim ADF actually points at the station. The reality is your average GA ADF will only give any useful information when you are wings level and pointing at or nearly at the station. In the air if in doubt turn to the desired track count 5 potatoes and then look at the needle.