Confederation College Flight Training Costs

[freerd]

I am a parent who will be paying for some of my son's post secondary educational costs. I have read and heard that Confed's "...flight training is paid for completely by the government..." c2007. Is this (still) true? I find it hard to believe that they will pick up this huge cost where every other college's flight training component is charging 40-60k.

[FighterPilot]

Hello,
The flight training is indeed subsidized. ie Your son won't ever have to pay for fuel for the aircraft, the cost of renting the aircraft or hiring the instructor. However he still pays tuition for his courses, pay for books, and meals, rent, beer etc. That being said you'll find many threads on these forums about doing a commercial license privately vs going to a College such as Confederation. I went the college route and I believe it is the better option, mainly because you get a diploma, and depending on how you look at it the flight training can be cheaper. If your son was to go to Western University he would have to pay for his tuition, books, etc. PLUS the cost of renting a plane, fuel etc. The thing with the subsidization is they only get a set amount of hours to do their training and if it take a few extra flights to grasp a concept they could run out of training hours then get the boot. I went to Sault college and it is similar to Confederation's program, so maybe someone can speak specifically for Confeds. program.

[BTyyj]

Like the previous poster mentioned, flight training costs nothing at all. Tuition, living expenses, etc., is all you have to pay for. It is still relatively cheap though. I have talked to a few guys who payed just over $20 000 for it. It may be hard to believe, but you should see how much the government subsidizes other professional programs, such as medicine.

It's a great deal compared to other college programs, which costs, as you mentioned, around $40-$60k. Universities cost even more; taking everything into account, it could cost well over $100k to go to Western or Waterloo.

I am not sure if your son has considered it, but there are a few other subsidized programs in Ontario: Sault and Seneca. Confederation is the shortest, so thus the cheapest. Something to keep in mind though is that they don't offer a MIFR rating, but instead a Float rating. This might be a bit of a detractor when comparing it to Sault, but that also really depends on what he wants to do. If bush flying is his goal, then Confederation will give him everything he needs. Seneca is the only one out of the three that has a degree program. Although the degree is pretty useless outside of aviation, and a college degree won't be very competitive against a university degree, having any accreditation beginning with "bachelors" could be advantageous in an increasingly competitive industry.

Something else to keep in mind is that these programs are very competitive. Many people go to Confederation after getting a degree. Despite this, the failure rate has historically been over 50%. That being said, many high school direct entry students pass with flying colours, while many university engineering grads fail out within the first semester. It is really tough, but if he pushes through, he will save you a lot of money .

[Slappy the Squirrel]

A lot of people talk about the failure rate at Con College, but the years I was there more than half of the students that started would pass. Not like 75% or anything, but it was still better than half. It certainly is something to consider, but I always found the people that were truly interested in it for a career did quite well while people who maybe hadn't completely made up their minds yet but hey this program looks cool typically struggled. The unfortunate thing was some of these individuals developed an interest in aviation and being a pilot, but since their marks from early in the semester are low they have a hard time digging themselves out of the hole. It's all about doing well from the get-go.

And like previous posters have said, it is very affordable. You're gonna pay about $8000 give or take for tuition, plus books, plus living expenses. I never found T-Bay to be a very expensive city to live in either.

[Colonel Sanders]

while many university engineering grads fail out within the first semester

Waving the bullsh1t flag on anyone with a BSc in Engineering not being able to handle first year college academics

the failure rate has historically been over 50%

that's a scam that many post-secondary institutions in Ontario indulge in. Carleton U is notorious for this - they will admit ANYONE, because they get $$$ from the Ontario gov't for each student, which they keep even if the student drops out and doesn't end up consuming the resources the the gov't has paid for.

Sounds like the flight colleges in Ontario are playing the same "gravy train" gov't accounting game.

[BTyyj]

while many university engineering grads fail out within the first semester

Waving the bullsh1t flag on anyone with a BSc in Engineering not being able to handle first year college academics

Just because you have an Engineering degree doesn't mean you know and are good at everything. There are sh1tty pilots out there with PhDs and MDs, and great pilots with high school diplomas. Just because someone has completed a program in an unrelated field doesn't mean they can complete this one. My comment wasn't meant to disparage engineers, but rather to point out that even people who are considered "intelligent" in general society can have trouble doing this college program.

that's a scam that many post-secondary institutions in Ontario indulge in. Carleton U is notorious for this - they will admit ANYONE, because they get $$$ from the Ontario gov't for each student, which they keep even if the student drops out and doesn't end up consuming the resources the the gov't has paid for.

Sounds like the flight colleges in Ontario are playing the same "gravy train" gov't accounting game.

Agriculture & Biological Science 76.9%
Architecture 83.6%
Business & Commerce 77.0%
Computer Science 61.3%
Engineering 73.1%
Fine & Applied Arts 57.8%
Humanities 60.8%
Journalism 78.6%
Mathematics 53.7%
Other Arts & Science 63.4%
Physical Science 78.3%
Social Science 66.1%

Pretty close, but only math is anywhere near under 50%.

[Colonel Sanders]

Just because you have an Engineering degree doesn't mean you know and are good at everything

No, but anyone that has completed a BSc in Engineering from an accredited university would have any trouble at all with the academic courses of any flight college. I challenge you to provide ONE name (you said there are "many") of such a person - I will gladly phone the registrar of their University to verify their graduation - to back up your claim that there are "many".

I hold both a BSc in Engineering and an ATPL, fwiw. Don't confuse a diploma with a degree, especially an Engineering degree. Worlds apart.

[BTyyj]

I can't really put names on these forums of people who failed courses. I know a few people who went the degree route, then got a college diploma. Their degrees weren't in engineering though, but they had told me that they knew students from a variety of backgrounds are not able to pass the program. Doing poorly academically isn't the only way of failing out though. Maybe they failed a flight test?

I hope I didn't offend you in anyway. I agree; a diploma and an engineering degree aren't comparable, but the people who go into these programs are. Just because someone go a certain path doesn't make them more or less intelligent of a person, some ways just broadens your knowledge and learning experiences.

Many people go into Confederation with a University degree, and many fail out. I highly doubt that passing Confederation is exclusive to engineering grads only.

[Colonel Sanders]

Just because someone go a certain path doesn't make them more or less intelligent of a person

I didn't say that. But I do maintain that the academic portion of an accreditted four year undergraduate Engineering degree is far more challenging than what you will encounter during an aviation college diploma course.

That's why you get an (Engineering) BSc degree for four years spent at University, and a diploma for 2 years in an aviation college program. You cannot seriously compare the academic portions of them.

I highly doubt that passing Confederation is exclusive to engineering grads only

I didn't say that either. I am sure there are plenty of engineering grads who might struggle with the flight training portion of an aviation diploma program, as difficult as it is to imagine anyone struggling with mastering the mighty 172.

But I strongly suspect that they would find the academic courses at the college a total joke. It would a simple review of material that they already took, and to nowhere near the same level.

[BTyyj]

Just because someone go a certain path doesn't make them more or less intelligent of a person

I didn't say that. But I do maintain that the academic portion of an accreditted four year undergraduate Engineering degree is far more challenging than what you will encounter during an aviation college diploma course.

That's why you get an (Engineering) BSc degree for four years spent at University, and a diploma for 2 years in an aviation college program. You cannot seriously compare the academic portions of them.

I highly doubt that passing Confederation is exclusive to engineering grads only

I didn't say that either. I am sure there are plenty of engineering grads who might struggle with the flight training portion of an aviation diploma program, as difficult as it is to imagine anyone struggling with mastering the mighty 172.

But I strongly suspect that they would find the academic courses at the college a total joke. It would a simple review of material that they already took, and to nowhere near the same level.

Alright, I agree with what you are saying completely. I apologize that I took what you said out of context. I have had a few run-ins with a few users on this website who were a bit too full of themselves and their accreditation's.

I think we are on the same page here. Maybe an engineering grad did fail a flight test or something. I too doubt they would have trouble academically.

This is all besides the main point though; if you go into this program, you will have to work hard. My original post wasn't to discredit engineers (fyi, I am seriously considering doing a BEng myself, so it's not like I am biased at this point), but rather to point out that even people with an academic background might have trouble with some aspects of the training. Work hard, and you'll be rewarded.

[Colonel Sanders]

if you go into this program, you will have to work hard

That depends. If the academic portion was a review of what you have already taken recently (eg BSc Engineering) and you were already a proficient pilot (eg PPL w/IFR) you could coast through it.

However, I have no idea why someone like that would take a flight college program. In Ontario, the motivation is the free (gov't-paid) flight time. If you don't need the flight time, I don't know why anyone would take a flight college program in Ontario.

[TheJudge]

I have taken both university engineering, and confederation's flight program.

Each individual concept in Confederation's program was relatively easy. However, the sheer volume of material you are required to learn (especially in first semester) was significantly larger than the amount of material I learned in any given full course load semester of university. The university material was indeed a higher level, but there was much less of it.

Some university grads have had trouble with Confederation's Diploma program because they think the university method of crash course studying will get them through. They procrastinate, and get destroyed on the final ground school exam.

[C-GOYR]

Judge sums it up perfectly. I am currently a student at confed. and I can attest to the volume of information that's thrown at you. It's like trying to drink water out of a fire hose. Every program will have their pros and cons but you just have to suck it up and put the work in. I wrote the pre final on Thursday and found it was a fair exam. I made a few stupid mistakes and my time management needs some tweaking. Will have a different game plan on Thursday for the final and things should work out much better.

With regards to teaching of the material, once again everyone will have an opinion. I can honestly say confed's faculty, is in my opinion more than capable of delivering the content. For anyone who has had the privilage of sitting in on one of Andy Hay's lesson will agree when I say, the guy oozes awesome from every orifice of his body

*ps* did my solo flight on Dec 3,2011.

[HM123]

I had a question about subsidized verus non-subsidized flight training costs: I just checked Seneca's website (https://www.senecacollege.ca/ce/technol ... uitionFees) about their Commercial Pilot Certificate and its says it would cost $35k + taxes for flight training plus $5k for academic courses. This would give you 200 hours and CPL + 10 academic courses. Meanwhile, I e-mailed Brampton flight Centre and their information says it would cost $35k + taxes for a 200 hr CPL.

I don't see how Seneca is subsidized as it looks like it costs the same as Brampton except you pay more for the academic courses. at Seneca Can anyone clear this up/

[wirez]

Have you seen the planes Seneca flies? A Bonanza and a Baron are not exactly cheap to operate. You're comparing apples and oranges.

BTW, I did not come from Seneca.

[AUGER9]

I had a question about subsidized verus non-subsidized flight training costs: I just checked Seneca's website (https://www.senecacollege.ca/ce/technol ... uitionFees) about their Commercial Pilot Certificate and its says it would cost $35k + taxes for flight training plus $5k for academic courses. This would give you 200 hours and CPL + 10 academic courses. Meanwhile, I e-mailed Brampton flight Centre and their information says it would cost $35k + taxes for a 200 hr CPL.

I don't see how Seneca is subsidized as it looks like it costs the same as Brampton except you pay more for the academic courses. at Seneca Can anyone clear this up/

You're looking at the Certificate program. The degree program is the subsidized one.

[Bede]

I do not have an engineering degree, but getting an engineering degree is much more difficult than an aviation program. Case in point: pick up a book on aerodynamics written for pilots, even an advanced one like Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators. Most pilots could get through it. Now pick up a book on aerodynamics for engineers such as Aerodynamics by John Anderson.

I know a guy who got the boot from Waterloo's Mech Eng program and ended up with a PhD in Biology.

[BTyyj]

I do not have an engineering degree, but getting an engineering degree is much more difficult than an aviation program. Case in point: pick up a book on aerodynamics written for pilots, even an advanced one like Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators. Most pilots could get through it. Now pick up a book on aerodynamics for engineers such as Aerodynamics by John Anderson.

I know a guy who got the boot from Waterloo's Mech Eng program and ended up with a PhD in Biology.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you, however, from a previous poster:

Each individual concept in Confederation's program was relatively easy. However, the sheer volume of material you are required to learn (especially in first semester) was significantly larger than the amount of material I learned in any given full course load semester of university. The university material was indeed a higher level, but there was much less of it.

Each class isn't conceptually hard like Engineering, but the volume of information is what makes the program difficult, especially for a young high school grad.

I have heard the same thing about Medical School as well, although the volume there is probably exponentially more. I would asume Law is pretty similar as well.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I do not have an engineering degree, but getting an engineering degree is much more difficult than an aviation program. Case in point: pick up a book on aerodynamics written for pilots, even an advanced one like Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators. Most pilots could get through it. Now pick up a book on aerodynamics for engineers such as Aerodynamics by John Anderson.

I know a guy who got the boot from Waterloo's Mech Eng program and ended up with a PhD in Biology.

Hey Hey, I have a Bsc in Marine Biology and I think I make a damn fine pilot

[Colonel Sanders]

the volume of information is what makes the program difficult

I can't speak for all accredited undergraduate Engineering programs, but the workload for mine was mindblowing. It was basically a triple major of Mathematics, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. You took the most difficult core courses from each of the above, and all the labs. There were an awful lot of very bright people who couldn't hack that combination of academic difficulty and heavy workload. I have a tough time believing that a college diploma program that teaches you to weld, or fly a 172 would be more challenging.

As a fair comparison, the TC written exams that so many pilot here struggle with, were complete jokes compared to my undergrad engineering exams, as far as difficulty and amount of material.

[Bede]

I totally agree Colonel. I know at Waterloo all first year engineers take 1 physics for engineers course and 1 chem for engineers course, each course 1 semester long and worth 0.5 credits. Basically they take all the material for first year PHYS 1 and 2 and CHEM 1 and 2 and squish them into 1 course. Plus you're taking 6 courses/semester as opposed to 5.

[BTyyj]

Maybe TheJudge could jump in here again? I thought he explained it pretty well, but maybe not.

I don't think anybody else in here has gone through both programs. All I am reading is people's assumptions of how hard/easy a program, rather than factual evidence. Speculating on the difficulty of a program isn't really informative.

Without a doubt, I can appreciate the difficulty of Engineering Degrees. At the same time, however, I have heard that these college programs are fairly challenging as well, and I don't think many University grads are appreciating these program as much as they should. No, it's not the same as a degree, but from what I am hearing, it's pretty damn close. A few universities nowadays are relatively easy to get into ((not mentioning the school) where %45 of their art students entered with lower than 75% average). So would you consider their graduates better suited than these college programs, which are pretty competitive?

I would never, ever compare a diploma to a BASc (Engineering). Looking at Sault however, their program is seven semesters. I would undoubtably compare it to, and even say it's harder than, a three-year Arts degree.