AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

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SilentMajority
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by SilentMajority »

CANAM wrote:The word on the street is that SkyRegional will be asked to run the low-cost carrier. SkyRegional already has a vast amount of knowledge of the A320 from their SkyService days. This would circumvent a lot of Air Canada's unions. In short, there may be nothing anybody can do about it.
Let's hope not. As distasteful as the thought of a LCC being brought into the fold at AC might be.......it will be far better having it in house under an ACPA contract / LOU with the aircraft being flown by AC pilots. We would all be well advised to take a hard look at the Qantas and JetStar mess.

My guess is that if the Qantas pilots had to do it over again.....JetStar would have been crewed by them under contract or a LOU....warts and all. Better to have some semblance of control and negotiation than to be on the outside looking in. Word has it that JetStar will be larger than Qantas by 2015.
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What_the?
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by What_the? »

For once I'd like to see our group grow a pair of balls...

Fear and scare tactics are what the company has used in the past to attain personal goals. If the company is not sustainable with it's current model, then engage the pilot group and allow us to find solutions. Threats do not work with me, and if it comes down to having to shut the company down, then so be it, there are countless jobs around the world for qualified and professional pilots.

Wake-up colleagues.... at some point we need to stand-up and state that enough is enough. As a pilot group we are to blame for the majority of problems that our profession now faces. How far are you willing to sell yourselves short? Have some pride in what we do, realize that we are not the problem and fight for a better future for all of us... And for once, instead of taking the stance that the next guy can worry and take care of it.... do something about it. Our profession is at stake, our children's future is at stake, and the very uniform that we wear will loose the symbolism of excellence and integrity that it is supposed to represent.
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TheSuit
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by TheSuit »

What_the? wrote:Threats do not work with me, and if it comes down to having to shut the company down, then so be it, there are countless jobs around the world for qualified and professional pilots.
How incredibly selfish and disgusting. Maybe instead of putting 20K+ people out of work, destroying 30K pensions, and dismantling Canada's only network airline, you could just go find one of those other great airline jobs right now and save everyone the trouble?
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What_the?
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by What_the? »

... And I suggest you start making taxi cab wages so that you can "secure" our jobs into the future. We are all expendable... and if you, for one moment, believe that taking a pay cut is going to secure your job, and the thousands of other employees you so fondly talk about, you are mistaken. We need to change the company for the better. Selfish.... mmmm.... standing up for the rights and future of all the pilots that are joining Air Canada and ensuring they get the remuneration they deserve.... Get out of your hole... and do something to make a change for once. How many times are you willing to lay on your back and allow things to happen? Compare Air Canada 60 years ago to what it is now. My grandfather and father would have been disgusted at where we have gone and what we have become.

It is time to make a stand...

"Let us now relieve the Romans of their fears by the death of a feeble old man."
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Last edited by What_the? on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
cgzro
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by cgzro »

It is time to make a stand...
Get the union to fund some proper research into sleep depravation or over work etc. then have it presented to the insurance companies. That will threaten significant premium increases and the only way to lower them is to proovably improve conditions for the pilots.
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vic777
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by vic777 »

cgzro wrote: Get the union to fund some proper research into sleep depravation or over work etc. then have it presented to the insurance companies. That will threaten significant premium increases and the only way to lower them is to proovably improve conditions for the pilots.
That's the ticket, now you're talking, I'm sure the Company will roll over on that one. Or we could put some clever stickers on our flight bags.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Dear what_the?

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Take the good advice given above...go find one of those great foreign jobs before you get too bitter...

You should go on the AC pilots forum. read the posts...the anger by the misguided 50 or 100 pilots (out of 3000) is fodder for a great sociological study in denial, anger, bitterness....

Your father, and grandfather might not recognize the current Air Canada, just like they wouldn't recognize the current retail market in Canada....no more Eatons, or or Birkes, or Simpsons or whatever....Costco, Walmart dominate the market....

The market is changing and you are blaming that on Air Canada. Sorry buddy, your anger is misplaced. Blame you parents, siblings, neighbors, and other Canadians. They want the lowest fares...they don't care about Air Canada's 75 years of history, they don't care about how "good" Air Canada pilots are. They assume that all airlines are the same, and the only difference is ticket price.

If you want a constructive outlet for your anger, try the federal government, who hasn't had a coherent aviation policy in decades, continues to suck blood out of the industry like a leech, and almost invites Canadians to who live near the US border, to travel thru the USA.

Adapt or die.
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What_the?
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by What_the? »

The entire salary of the pilot group comprises 2% of the total operating cost at Air Canada. If you believe that we are the problem, and that adapting means giving away another 20% of our salaries... then I'd suggest you re-evaluate your stance on who is to blame; will devaluating my job and work conditions save the company? Will another 0.5% make a difference? We save the company millions of dollars a year with single engine taxis, accepting closer alternates, flying with flight-planned fuel...

We put the safety of our passengers first because we understand the responsibility that we have; I believe that is priceless… and no cost can be placed on this.

The general public may want cheaper flights, however I invite you to find a single person, on the street, that would tell you they do not want a well-trained, well-rested, professional and content pilot flying their families. I would suggest that you stop whoring the industry, and for once make a stand. It is something we should have done years ago.

Adapt or die... I am not willing to continue this downward spiral to the point where we are flying for free. If you believe that is the way of the future then I'm sad-to-say that I and thousands of other pilots disagree. The statements you make show how little you value the job we do. In this case, Sir, I will adapt, however adapt to improve my salary, work conditions and regain the respect that should already be in place for individuals who fly 50 million dollar aircrafts, with hundreds of passengers on them, safely and efficiently, every day.
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sluggo
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by sluggo »

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Last edited by sluggo on Fri May 01, 2015 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mig29
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Mig29 »

By The Associated Press

MADRID - Spanish airline Iberia cancelled a third of its flights Sunday because of a strike by pilots fearing job losses when company planes are diverted for use by Iberia's planned new budget carrier.

Iberia said it scrapped 91 flights, mostly domestic routes, but that no major disruptions were reported at its bustling Madrid hub or other airports because it managed to find alternative seats on other Iberia flights or with other carriers for about 80 per cent of the travellers.

Another one-day strike is planned for Dec. 29.

Iberia, Lineas Aereas de Espana, S.A., plans to divert jetliners from money-losing domestic and medium-haul European routes for Iberia Express, which it hopes to launch early next year using lower-earning, newly hired pilots and flight attendants. The company says its plans are for this carrier to have 40 planes in 2015.

Pilots union SEPLA says it ultimately fears job losses among existing staff with the creation of the unit, designed to compete with budget airlines.

Iberia, Spain's flagship carrier, insists that no job cuts are planned among its current 1,600 pilots.


Maybe it's your turn to stand up guys?????
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TheStig
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by TheStig »

Mig29 wrote:Maybe it's your turn to stand up guys?????[/color]
Sorry, must have missed something, why? AC's management hasn't made any threats (yet) that indicated they would start the proposed LCC with outside pilots. TA1 contained LCC provisions which included Air Canada pilots, the pilots didn't like the terms of deal and voted it down. TA1 was a big wakeup call for the membership, not only to question AC managements intentions, but also the union leaderships' intentions. The new negotiators at work now should have the pilots full support, but as things stand now, what exactly should Air Canada's Pilots be standing up against?
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CanadaEH
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by CanadaEH »

Iberia, Lineas Aereas de Espana, S.A., plans to divert jetliners from money-losing domestic and medium-haul European routes for Iberia Express, which it hopes to launch early next year using lower-earning, newly hired pilots and flight attendants. The company says its plans are for this carrier to have 40 planes in 2015.
I think that says it all. If you can't make money at something you either close or shift to something that can.
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yycflyguy
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by yycflyguy »

*cough, cough, cough, SCOPE PROTECTION, cough cough cough*

Without ACPA's consent there is no LCC.... well there may be, but not at different WAWCON for the pilots.
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Mig29
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by Mig29 »

Hope you are right, but who says that CR has to give you any scope protection, but instead just start another airline 'tier' and bypass the entire ACPA group and it's contract. These guys are pros at what they do, just like we may be at what we do.

just my 2 cents.
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LeadingEdge
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Re: Dear what_the?

Post by LeadingEdge »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote:Take the good advice given above...go find one of those great foreign jobs before you get too bitter...

You should go on the AC pilots forum. read the posts...the anger by the misguided 50 or 100 pilots (out of 3000) is fodder for a great sociological study in denial, anger, bitterness....

Your father, and grandfather might not recognize the current Air Canada, just like they wouldn't recognize the current retail market in Canada....no more Eatons, or or Birkes, or Simpsons or whatever....Costco, Walmart dominate the market....

The market is changing and you are blaming that on Air Canada. Sorry buddy, your anger is misplaced. Blame you parents, siblings, neighbors, and other Canadians. They want the lowest fares...they don't care about Air Canada's 75 years of history, they don't care about how "good" Air Canada pilots are. They assume that all airlines are the same, and the only difference is ticket price.

If you want a constructive outlet for your anger, try the federal government, who hasn't had a coherent aviation policy in decades, continues to suck blood out of the industry like a leech, and almost invites Canadians to who live near the US border, to travel thru the USA.

Adapt or die.
You know, I have been around this industry for 30+ years, and I have heard these comments time and time again. In fact, I am surprised that you actually believe them... LCC is a smoke screen, the "street" knows it, you know it, and I know it. As Big P said above, it takes an entirely new way of doing business to go the LCC route. Quite frankly, AC management has neither the skills nor the desire to see LCC succeed, it will be a tool to bleed the other airlines out of existence.

The wages, while being a variable cost, are so minimal that they do not represent a real gain, especially when you add the "further reductions" attributed to poor moral. This is a service industry remember. If you look closely at AC, what is the one area that has not changed??? It didn't change in CCAA, and it has not changed during cost transformation - Management structure. LCC's survive because they have very lean, very efficient, and very responsive management. This is the very reason why Costco and Walmart are profitable. Do you see this at AC, I know that I don't. You cannot transplant the existing management structure onto LCC, it will not work. Want an example of this: AC does not even know what the cost of its individual products are...

As for transferring the work to some other Airline, that would constitute a breech of fiduciary duty, and it would be illegal under the present Labour code. Also ACPA scope provisions would not allow it.

A second trip through CCAA is highly unlikely, because CCAA requires DIP financing for exit, and who would finance AC??? There is nothing left to sell of any real value. Even if you could, it would push a significant number of employees down to the Walmart wages group, and what would they have to lose by striking... This is the rub for Airlines now, as wages drop to very low levels, turn over increases, and as we have seen, the likely hood of a strike increases.

Canada is not Asia, we have a labour code, and it must be followed. The mantra of LCC ala Jetstar would not be legal here. Rather than speculating on uniformed rumours, I think that some of the posters here should do a little research. You might be surprised on how misguided your opinion is...

LE
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yycflyguy
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by yycflyguy »

The wages, while being a variable cost, are so minimal that they do not represent a real gain, especially when you add the "further reductions" attributed to poor moral. This is a service industry remember. If you look closely at AC, what is the one area that has not changed??? It didn't change in CCAA, and it has not changed during cost transformation - Management structure. LCC's survive because they have very lean, very efficient, and very responsive management. This is the very reason why Costco and Walmart are profitable. Do you see this at AC, I know that I don't. You cannot transplant the existing management structure onto LCC, it will not work. Want an example of this: AC does not even know what the cost of its individual products are...

As for transferring the work to some other Airline, that would constitute a breech of fiduciary duty, and it would be illegal under the present Labour code. Also ACPA scope provisions would not allow it.
Bingo. Well said.
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ahramin
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Re: Dear what_the?

Post by ahramin »

LeadingEdge wrote:Canada is not Asia, we have a labour code, and it must be followed. The mantra of LCC ala Jetstar would not be legal here.
What if the current majority government decides to make it legal? If they can declare check in agents as essential service providers like doctors or police and get away with it, they aren't really worried about legalities are they? Realize one thing, AC and the government are going to do anything they can get away with, legal or not.
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ratherbee
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Re: Dear what_the?

Post by ratherbee »

LE,

I am afraid your comments are the ones that are misguided and "uniformed."

LCC's are a reality and are not going away. Legacy carriers are a thing of the past but can survive if they adapt successfuly to change by carving out a successful niche. How about the "Best Airline in North America?" However, they will not grow and will more likely shrink. If ACPA wants growth for the junior pilots then they will have to look towards an LCC.

We can't hide behind the Code. After the Concilliation process is over and the cooling off period is done, so is the present contract, possibly including Article 1. Common Employer rules, and the right to follow work are not slam dunks by any means and are unlikely to succeed if NewCo is set up properly.

Nothing else to sell? Have you forgotten about our pensions and new legislation that allows them to be undone avoiding CCAA?

The tragedy will be if we don't get an LCC. No growth, no retirements for five years, loss of revenue and loss of opportunity.

The truth hurts but especially for the future of our junior pilots and new hires.
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bearinmind
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by bearinmind »

I keep hearing the same 2 arguments.
Acpa will and out current scope will protect us
and
The company wont go into bankruptcy, either by government protection or the company giving us what we want.

Clearly Acpa is not a threat to the company or they would not have pushed this through with other unions. If they thought we had some real clout they would not have already put these contracts with the other union groups. We opposed Sky Regional and where are they now?

The government is onside of the company and they will fore the group back to work without the opportunity to unleash some ACPA whoopa$$, (which sounds like a muffled wimper).

We are about to get steam rolled, they are going to split off a low cost carrier (good or bad idea who knows) and if we cave we might be a part of it, if not it will be sky regional flying it.
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mbav8r
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by mbav8r »

Rumor around the Sky Regional camp being propagandized by management is, Sky Service is coming back, via ACV.
Leading edge wrote;
Also ACPA scope provisions would not allow it.
ACPA scope didn't allow for Sky Regional to exist either
Another thing, apparently they will be flying out of Pearson in the new year, yep your scope clause did wonders...
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by the original tony »

The flying was offered to us and we turned it down.
It's pretty ugly when TA1 looks like a good deal nowadays....
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bearinmind
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by bearinmind »

Our only strength is in our negotiated contract.

The biggest threat to that contract is not CR but Government intervention.

The only way to combat government intervention is public opinion.

Lets stop wasting our time negotiating a contract that in the end will be whatever CR tells Ratt he needs to survive. We need to get every member to call their MP, and MPP. All our family members need to do the same. We need to use our union contacts to rally other unions to do the same. Voter opinion is the only way to a negotiated contract.

If we dont learn this lesson now, it will cost us our future.
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LeadingEdge
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by LeadingEdge »

What are you so scared of??

No growth vs $hitty growth. Better yet sell out the bottom 2/3rd's to protect the top, thats what TA1 was really about.

You seem to think that the Co can break the law. Sky regional will be shut down or there will be a negotiated settlement, but either way AC will pay. So suck it up boys, no body respects you when you don't respect yourself.

You can't even bother to read the code... I love the "what if the Gov't changes the code line" did you actually think before you posted??

Thanks for the Laugh...
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vic777
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by vic777 »

bearinmind wrote: Voter opinion is the only way to a negotiated contract.
What are you smoking?
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mbav8r
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Re: AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

Post by mbav8r »

You seem to think that the Co can break the law. Sky regional will be shut down or there will be a negotiated settlement
LeadingEdge,
I could be wrong but I heard ACPA lost the Sky regional grievance.
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