Picking a field for the Forced Approach

[Big Pistons Forever]

This topic is related to the other thread on engine failures but in order to keep things on topic I thought I would start a new thread. At the risk of offending the training "establishment", I think all of those FTU acronyms on choosing a field should be binned and in general most forced approach training places far too much emphasis on making the "right" choice of the field.

Personally I tell my students that the priority in choosing a field is well behind not letting the engine fail in the first place, and if it does getting it going again and if you can't get it going, maintaining control of the aircraft at its optimal glide speed.

A 60 knots to 0 knots uniform deceleration takes about 25 feet. Now obviously it would be hard to do that in the real world, but the take away is the secret to a survivable forced landing is to have the airplane have even a small ground run. The killer accidents are the instantaneous stops from flying speed that occurs when the airplane hits an immovable object or the ground in a steep nose down attitude. Since the condition of the airplane when it stops is immaterial, the only consideration is to avoid injuring the occupants, what the field looks like doesn't really matter, what matters is having the airplane touch down wings level, nose up, at a slow but in control airspeed, and most importantly at the spot of the pilots choosing.

You obviously have to tell the student something about field selection during the PGI, so I tell them the criteria are, Close, Open ( ie fewest obstructions on the final approach) and Clear (of any big obstructions that could cause the killer sudden stop).

I emphasize close is always better then farther away. It is much better to comfortably make the close crappy field than arrive just short of the perfect field that is too far away. I also emphasize the importance of having the aircraft actually touch down at the chosen landable area. Most students are high on the approach and there is a real risk that they will float over that reasonable level, flat patch and then smash into the tree/wall/building at the far end of the field with catastrophic results. Therefore if it looks like you are going to be long then make the aircraft touchdown by retracting the flaps and/or smashing the aircraft onto the ground.

Ps: I promise I will try to turn over a new leaf and be less confrontational on avcanada, for this year at least

[robertsailor1]

My wife is in her last few hours of flight training so like the old days I've been spending too much time at the airport. I watch the boys and girls doing circuits and its really rare to have the same aircraft consistantly touching down in the same general space. My thoughts are...here you have power and can put it down where ever you like but your not good enough or your not being held to a standard good enough to consistantly land in the same place. What will happen if you are ever called upon to do the same thing with no power and no clear approach? Fortunately like the writer says its a rare situation that you'd ever be put to the test.

[Shiny Side Up]

One of the points that a lot of pilots don't think about in regards to the engine out situation is when you should be looking for that landing spot.

Fortune favors the prepared.

For me, the puzzle of where am I going to go if the engine stops, is something that's always on my mind when I'm flying. Its about paying attention to your surroundings, maintaining that awareness. In some places it carries a larger weight in my thoughts than others - flying in the mountains for instance, or when I'm doing low level work. The thing that catches most people is that their brain is in neutral when the problem happens - and is sometimes the cause of the problem. The wind factor is a big thing that catches people - seemingly oblivious to the fact they've been crabbing to the right to maintain track for the last hour. Doesn't seem like rocket science, but if you're going to crash and don't know where to go, crash into the wind. I could go on with all the other factors that will tip the scales on the side of one's surviving a crash, but I'll just return to the point. Pay attention.

One of the things that gets me is that pilots will often screw this excersise up even when they know its comming (remember its the cause of the majority of flight test failures for the PPL, its cousin the precision 180 the main failure item for CPL tests) and most of the time is you watch them sit there dumbstruck when you pull the throttle back on them. Part of that problem of course in my opinion is too many pilots with their eyes inside the cockpit playing with gizmos rather than paying attention to the world around them, but I digress.

I do of course have to bring up one of my current grievances with the system though, and that's how all the checklist garbage is now treated with equal weight as the keeping the aircraft under control in a glide is, and my feeling is the big source of BPF's lamented flight school acronyms and checklists regarding it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My wife is in her last few hours of flight training so like the old days I've been spending too much time at the airport. I watch the boys and girls doing circuits and its really rare to have the same aircraft consistantly touching down in the same general space. My thoughts are...here you have power and can put it down where ever you like but your not good enough or your not being held to a standard good enough to consistantly land in the same place. What will happen if you are ever called upon to do the same thing with no power and no clear approach? Fortunately like the writer says its a rare situation that you'd ever be put to the test.

While I support your general point that at the end of flight training every student should be able to accurately land at a selected point, if you had watched me last week out doing landings with a PPL you would have seen touchdowns occur at a variety of points along the runway and probably said "oh look at more crappy instruction". However when I start teaching landings I first emphasis being on speed and trimmed with the nose held in a stable attitude. Initially I will take the touchdown at an reasonable point on the runway if it was proceeded by a stable approach and a properly timed flare. The reality is new students get overwhelmed if you try to get them to fly a stable approach and correct to perfect flight path all at the same time with the result that it usually all falls apart. If the student can roll onto final and go to and hold the correct attitude and trim then it is relatively easy to add the next step which is flight path management to a selected touch down point.

I am not sure why I am bothering to reply as your comment is typical of pilots making disparaging comments about instructors without any idea of what they are talking about when it comes to how one actually learns how to fly.

[Cat Driver]

I am not sure why I am bothering to reply as your comment is typical of pilots making disparaging comments about instructors without any idea of what they are talking about when it comes to how one actually learns how to fly.

You are doing just fine Big Pistons Forever, gradually you will convince everyone here that only you are an expert on teaching people how to fly.

Your arrogance is enough to wear all of us down and soon you will have the flight training forum all to yourself.

By the way some of us were instructors before you were born.

[robertsailor1]

I understand everyone can have different ways to teach flying and there is seldom one right way. Years ago many pilots were taught to fly out of very short grass strips and you had no choice but to nail the approach. Recently my wife took her initial training out of a grass strip in a little champ. There were trees on the approach and the strip was a little less than 2000 feet and I was surprised how quickly she learned to make good approaches. It took her longer to really get great landings but her approaches were pretty consistant. Now on the long paved runway when I watch her turn from base to final, always a little high, and then there's that beautiful turning slip that puts her right on the button..proud to watch!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Your arrogance is enough to wear all of us down and soon you will have the flight training forum all to yourself.

Bit of the pot calling the kettle black.....me thinks

[robertsailor1]

Lets not get into a pissing match about who knows more about instructing. There are just too many different ways to teach and quite frankly students all learn in different ways. I think we have some excellent comments from many different posters on an ongoing basis.

[Big Pistons Forever]

. I think we have some excellent comments from many different posters on an ongoing basis.

Absolutely and I never meant to imply otherwise.

[trey kule]

Part of that problem of course in my opinion is too many pilots with their eyes inside the cockpit playing with gizmos rather than paying attention to the world around them, but I digress

.

Big problem...Huge And it is not just the new CPL's. It seems we have put so many interesting things in side the cockpit to play with, no one wants to look outside. To many pilots, situational awareness is something that is just a theoretical subject in the classroom, and unless we make it a part of SOP's it will not happen.( that was my first dig at SOPs for 2012)
And yet pilots cant do crosschecks to confirm simple things like both altimeters being set correctly.

Now to get a grip on my thread drift. From what I have seen in the last few years, picking a field for a forced approach is about number 278 of things to do if the engine on a single quits. There are procedures, and checklists, and communciations, and pax briefings,,,,,and then actually flying the plane at the proper glide speed.....And when all that is done, it seems it is time to start thinking about picking a field.
From where I sit, the problem is that all forced approach practice ,with the exception of the in circuit stuff, is done at high altitude, so there is no pressure on the student to have looked around in the first place, or even to put the picking out of a field as a priority. And instructors do not emphasize to fly the plane, pick a field, plan and execute the landing....and then, if time allows, do all the other things....but the truth is, flight test standards want all those other things thrown in. The result is the student does not make the field correctly and a failure on the test. Just my observation. though I notice some of the more enlightened sources during PDM emhasiize the importance of committing to the forced landing rather than thinking about restarts etc. I think that is good advice.
May the only forced approaches for 2012 be practice ones.

[Beefitarian]

I need a green lazer pointer. That would solve one of my two problems with the forced approach I have. Instructor, "Oh you're going to that field? I thought you meant this other one." I just don't speak da proper honglaise I suppose.

My other problem is comming in high because I know I can allways lose height with or without an engine. I just need a bit more practice picking a better spot to be at to start short final.

[trampbike]

Beef, coming in high should not be a problem, unless your instructor is a wuss and is scared of turning sideslips and forward slips. Better be high and then slip than too low and trying to "strech the glide".

[trey kule]

For what its worth Beef, years ago there was a very nice procedure for dealing with height on a forced approach. It seems however, that many FTU's want to use a kind of cirucit to do the forced appraoch.
Not sure why, but it does not do a good job of getting you to your touchdown point as well.

And again, the problem is that training and practice is always done with sufficient altitude without empahsis on fly the plane..Land it safely as possible..All other things are secondary.

[robertsailor1]

Some interesting posts. Years ago we were taught first.. always fly the aircraft in an engine failure. Get it trimmed up for best glide speed and do the normal checks to try to get the engine restarted. Failing that we put our attention to finding a good field and looking for smoke or any indicators of wind direction to set the aircraft downwind and high to our intended landing spot. Call in your mayday. Turned off the fuel. If we were quite high on approach we did S turns to lose altitude but keep the field in site and then slip the last bit off or use flaps. On short final we turned off the electrical systems and cracked the door so we didn't get stuck in the aircraft. Not sure how its taught these days but as always there are many ways to do the same thing.

[Beefitarian]

Beef, coming in high should not be a problem, unless your instructor is a wuss and is scared of turning sideslips and forward slips. Better be high and then slip than too low and trying to "strech the glide".

Yuppers, (not an acronym Trey) I just need to pratice getting a better start point for final approach to the field and polish it up. Hopefully this will be another year when I get to fly several hours like last year.

The worst of the batch of side slips from last year was when I had allready dropped some flap then still needed some slip to avoid getting too far into the field before I would have touched down. I'm honest so, I told him I knew it was not the best to slip with flap in the 172 N because the rudder is less effective and we could get some oscillation in the elevator.

[TC Aviator]

Hey Fellas. TC is recommending that once the aircraft is under control and trimmed for a glide to decide where to land and plan that approch. If time permits, complete the other checks with the hope of getting a restart.
Here is the link to the PPL/CPL flight test guide for Forced Landing http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... 2-2470.htm
TC is also strongly recommending the 360/Hi Key,Low Key approach for it's flexibility and advantages to correct misjudgement of height AGL.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The problem with flight training is EX 22 is usually carried out at one or two "standard" fields (eg Glen Valley international). It quickly becomes a cookbook exercise, where you always turn base at the white house and turn final at the little pond and go full flap as you cross the road. The restart procedure is mindlessly rattled off ( because in the words of one instructor I know "Don't worry its not important because on the flight test you know the engine isn't going to come back" ) and then great emphasis is placed on radio calls including the 3 Maydays and elaborate passenger briefs instead of flying the aircraft. The exercise has become all about passing the flight test instead of emphasizing how to avoid the pilot induced engine failures and really practicing the vital actions to get the engine going again so that they are automatic and then once you are convinced the engine won't restart really working at getting the flight path judgement skills down pat.

The bottom line is that if you do a perfect set of cause and shut down checks using a flow, but don't go head down to read the written checklist and then the fly perfect approach to the best field, but don't do the mayday call or passenger brief you can fail the exercise and the flight test. That to me is silly.

[Colonel Sanders]

If you want to pass the PFL on the flight test, when the examiner
pulls the throttle, immediately perform a very steep turn to the
right so that you can see the fields on his side

Most people only look for fields ahead of and on the left of the
airplane. There are allowed to be good fields on the right side,
and even behind the aircraft. There might be even be a perfect
field directly underneath, too, which you can't see unless you
turn.

Regardless, you should be looking for fields during the flight
test, before the PFL, because you know it's coming. Playing
the game is how you pass any test.

IMHO, people just don't practice engine-off gliding enough
before they attempt the flight test. People even have trouble
with the 180 power-off approach from downwind abeam the
numbers on the CPL flight test, which blows my mind. Doesn't
get any better than that.

My prioritized forced approach procedure:

1 - fly the aircraft. No stall, no spin, best glide if you have time
2 - figure out where to land, turn NOW while you have altitude
3 - restart checks, if no joy shutdown
4- chicksh1t for test passing (radio, pax)

Now here's the trick: you never stop doing #1, and you
only do #2 if you have extra time. And, you don't stop
doing #2, to do #3 (eg people flying away from field with
their heads down, doing checks).

You'd better learn how to prioritize and multi-task if you're
going to fly a successful PFL.

I guess unlike most people, I enjoy the PFL, because it is
a challenge for the student, and it's a really blast for me to
help them conquer something difficult. Every time I do a
landing in a biplane, it's power off on downwind, and if I
need to use the throttle again I've done something wrong.

See Gerry Younger and "power dependent".

As I mentioned before, I am a PFL sadist for class 4 instructor
candidates. Every time we come back to the field, there
will be a PFL, from different locations, altitudes, headings,
and they will be a master of the PFL by the time they do
their initial instructor test, because a weak instructor is
almost always going to produce a weak student.

[Shiny Side Up]

Most people only look for fields ahead of and on the left of the
airplane. There are allowed to be good fields on the right side,
and even behind the aircraft. There might be even be a perfect
field directly underneath, too, which you can't see unless you
turn.

This is what I was getting after with my previous post. Keep in mind that a field or landing spot that you can't see now since it is underneath you, or on your right side, was at sometime fully within your field of view. Every field behind you was after all one that was probably in front of you at one time or another.

A useful skill to a VFR pilot, and just generally in life, is to keep track of where you've been, its a sideline of the general good advice to just pay attention. Its an extension of the same skill that helps you remember where you parked at the mall. It should come as no suprise (though often does) that there is a great spot to land on your right side, since that spot was in your front 45 degrees of viewing arc maybe a few minutes before.

As I mentioned before, I am a PFL sadist for class 4 instructor
candidates. Every time we come back to the field, there
will be a PFL,

For the instructor part of that excersise should be developing an intimate familiarity with one's training area. One should expect that an instructor should know where every goood spot to put down is at within the usual distances from his home field and certainly on the regular routes one teaches navigation excersises. Not only for one's own uses in demonstration, but also so one can reasonably give students feedback when they go out to practice this excersise solo. One should note that this isn't the only reason an instructor should develop said knowledge, but we won't delve into the others which are outside this topic of discussion.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The worst of the batch of side slips from last year was when I had allready dropped some flap then still needed some slip to avoid getting too far into the field before I would have touched down. I'm honest so, I told him I knew it was not the best to slip with flap in the 172 N because the rudder is less effective and we could get some oscillation in the elevator.

This is a FTU ism that needs to get stamped out once and for all. Slipping with flaps is NOT PROHIBITED in a C 172. There is a note in the normal operations section of the POH that advises slips with flaps should be "avoided". This is due to a possible uncommanded pitch down moment being generated and/or buffeting of the tail, but there is no prohibition of flaps down slips in the limitation section of the POH. Unfortunately the advice to avoid flap down slips has somehow turned into a FTU "you will die" urban legend.

I always demonstrate a full flap slip at some point in the course, as well as the slipping turn, the way to achieve the highest power off rate of descent. I tell my students that for a normal approach if you can't make the approach comfortably with full flap then rather than force a bad approach, go around. However if you have to get down in the case of a forced approach or a one way strip then use everything you have including an full rudder deflection full flap slip.

[Beefitarian]

In defense of the guy I was with that day he indeed responded, "You're right it's not ideal but it's not prohibited according to the POH. Correct?" I think I said, "Yup. I just wish I had set this up better so I wasn't so high here, though. I think I can still make it." I believe I did save that one but.. ick.

I'll have to think hard and consider if I'm stuck looking for the ones in front and on the left. I just might be. I certainly would like to say I'm keeping track and would pick the best one even if it's behind and to the right but I may not be doing that while flying dual lately to be honest.

My prioritized forced approach procedure:

1 - fly the aircraft. No stall, no spin, best glide if you have time
2 - figure out where to land, turn NOW while you have altitude
3 - restart checks, if no joy shutdown
4- chicksh1t for test passing (radio, pax)

Now here's the trick: you never stop doing #1, and you
only do #2 if you have extra time. And, you don't stop
doing #2, to do #3 (eg people flying away from field with
their heads down, doing checks).

You'd better learn how to prioritize and multi-task if you're
going to fly a successful PFL.

I don't want to sound like a condescending jerk, I obviously am pretty honest with my skill level here and I wish I could fly way more because I feel there's a lot of room to improve it.

That said, I hope everyone who's at the level of flying solo can continue to do #1 while doing #2 and eventually slip in #3 followed by #4 without being distracted from continuing to do #1 & 2.

In a light single checking fuel and sparky things shouldn't require so much from me that I to forget to breath and fly the plane to the field. I think the toughest part would be if you actually had to try diferent fuel valve positions looking for one that feeds fresh flamable fluid to the carborator.
Even with a hand held mic I can say, "Mayday mayday mayday Cessna 172 Charlie Golf etc etc etc, Charlie Golf etc etc etc, Charlie Golf etc etc etc. Engine failure 2 overweight souls onboard! near someplace." Hopefully I was paying enough attention to know someplace we're near, I think that's still called navigating. I then press ident on the Xponder while gliding somewhere veryy close the best touch down spot hopfully in the field I picked. I would think sometime near final for that field, I can still do #1 while I ask the passenger to "Take pens and sharp things out of your pockets, take off your sunglasses and push the emergancy help button on that spot2 thing please." if I didn't allready do that a while back.

[trey kule]

TC is also strongly recommending the 360/Hi Key,Low Key approach for it's flexibility and advantages to correct misjudgement of height AGL.

A few people from TC need to go out and try that from a simulated engine failure at 1000AGL with the best field a few miles away. Let us know how it works out for them. I think there are far better ways, and they used to kind of a standard. Not sure why this one is the end all, be all.

Not sure I agree with the immediate steep turn idea for a freshly minted pilot. If that engine really does quit, the adreniline level is going to be high, and putting the plane in an unusual attitude (yes...it is for us mortal pilots) is maybe not the best immediate action...There just might be a big old good landing strip right in front of the plane. Not sure what the magic of stuff on the right side is that it takes priority over just getting the plane stabalixed at the proper speed, and taking a moment to look around. If there is time to lose the altitude in a turn and nowhere to the front or right , maybe than.

Just a quick thought. How many instructors here simulate an engine failure , and then just let the student fly the plane and get it into the field first before introducing all the extras.

[Colonel Sanders]

Not sure I agree with the immediate steep turn idea for a freshly minted pilot

That's flight test gamesmanship. The examiner will have a perfect field
on his side of the aircraft that he will mention to you in the debrief that you
did not see, so why not land on it?

Play the game to win, TK. All my flight test candidates do

[trey kule]

I have played the game to win..And over 40 years of flying later, it seems to have worked out OK for me.
Perhaps it is not necessary to take personal shots at people because they disagree with you.

You want to teach your students to do steep turns as an immediate actions...That is your choice.
you have an examiner who likes to play little games like making sure the only good field is on the right side of the plane....I would be having a talk with him, but again, that is your decision.

I hope you can withhold the personal attacks becasuse I happen to feel that a steep right turn as an immediate action when the engine stops is not a good idea...Might just be some good places to land out the front or left side...and you will have a bit more altitude to work with..Make that immediate right turn and what if there is no good field there that you might have not seen when it was in front of you.

[robertsailor1]

What ever happened to the student being prepared for a forced landing at anytime rather than just on a flight test by simply being taught to be observant to whats going on around him/her including the ground beneath.