Buying a PPC

Flying Newf · Post by **Flying Newf** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:50 am

I have recently siffited through some resumes, and I was totally disgusted with some of the applicants, who with their 300 hours, think they can buy a job. YOU ARE AN IDIOT!! Willing to come with a fresh PPC. Why are you in aviation? Do you think its a game, are you gonna live in your parents garage for life? By the time you have weaseled your way into a descent job, qualified pilots will be working for min wage, due to Morons like you? You may be wondering why we haven’t called you yet, after all you offered such a great deal to us. WE SHALL NEVER CALL YOU. In fact, I have passed your resume around to some friends and your name is now black-listed with some companies. Keep saying you will work for cheap and buy your own PPC...you’ll go far!

Out of Control · Post by **Out of Control** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:52 am

Well said. Take note other CP's

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:01 am

So you wont hire the PPCed 300 hour wonder... but how come you'll hire the PPCed 1000 or 1500TT...Insurance greed?

learcapt · Post by **learcapt** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:43 am

flying newf....i cannot believe your attitude at all. black-list people for just trying to get a break in an incredibly competetive market? i do not agree with pilots paying for training either, but to have such a harsh stand on guys trying to fulfill their dream is TOTALLY unprofessional!!! i would really be curious to find out what kind of operator you work for and your experience. i have a feeling i would not be too impressed. and to the other idoit, "take note CPs", get a life, you guys have completely crushed a few people here today. get rid of the bloody god complex MR. CHIEF PILOT..wow, do we bow to you guys as well. you dont like what some low times say in resumes, keep it to yourself!!

and Yoyoma, you hit the nail on the head as well, but of hipocrits!!!

now i feel alot better

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:44 am

Flying Newf. Good for you. But why not call them and chastise them? Here is a chance to influence them early? Yoyoma, maybe a guy with the time you speak of might not state that on a resume? I mean, the guy with 300 hours is ignorant of the industry, but a guy with time?

learcapt · Post by **learcapt** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:44 am

i meant bunch of hipocrits...got so angry i messed up

Always Moving · Post by **Always Moving** » Fri May 13, 2005 10:16 am

Listen I live with my wife I have money for a PPC but I have not bought one, tempted but NO, is a matter of principles (and I do have them)
If I was a CP I would Never hire that guy not now not in the future. That is like the merging in the highway….. don’t you think those assholes that jump into the mergin lane to gain 3 car lengths and disturb the flow for 100 knows that the rest of the people want to go too, or is he so much smarter than the rest?
And yes it is hypocritical saying that when EVERY JOB that I see ask for PPC, like I usually say in this situation “Somebody is lying”
By the way I am still looking for a flying job

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:53 pm

Sure, they all would like PPC'd pilots. I'd like to win the lottery too.
Guess what? Paying a guy to train and fly the hardware is part of the cost of operating the machine. If you can't afford to pay you drivers a decent wage you are not charging enough. And if you are not charging enough you are driving the price down for all the people who ARE charging enough.
I've seen the cycle more than enough times to know how it works:
Airlines starts up, airline tries to gain market share by undercutting other established airlines, airline cuts on pay and maintenance to pay rent... after a few years of driving the price down for everybody... guess what? Cheap airline goes out of business.

Get your first job with the newf. Sounds like he appreciates hard work and skills over someone who would prostitute themselves to some asshole for a few hours.

Youngback · Post by **Youngback** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:13 pm

I agree with newf. All paying for a PPC does is separate the guys and gals with money and those without. Work ethics and skills don't enter into the equation at all and thats what should count in an employee. Not whose bank account is bigger.

An exception though, the blackmailing part might be a little extreme. I can understand how you'd be pissed though.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:56 pm

And I'm with learcapt......Newf, if you dont want to hire them, that's your call. Totally. And I, and most others agree with you. BUT, to phone other CP's and "blacklist" these pilots is really way out of line. I just hope you're blowing smoke on this one.....or you haven't done this more than once, and that you dont do it any more. Hell, I'm a "Doc", not a lawyer, but I'd be really floored if one of these guys couldn't sue your ass off if they got wind of this from a good source??
I just think it's damn LOW!!!

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri May 13, 2005 2:03 pm

And maybe the applicant put, in the cover letter,

"who ever you hire I'll work for twice as less,"

So you'd want buddy to not get the job, lose his wife and kids and his house because some kid will do the job for free??? Good stuff guys..

Yoyo is right though,

So you wont hire the PPCed 300 hour wonder... but how come you'll hire the PPCed 1000 or 1500TT...Insurance greed?

But this is Canada, and we all don't move onto A320's with 250TT.

So instead of just yelling at newf, maybe you should yell at all the operators for their "high" time requirements.

Mig29 · Post by **Mig29** » Fri May 13, 2005 2:41 pm

I wont get into PPC argument cause its been debated before, and sparks flew all over....but blackmailing guys because of this is way too far man!

I would like to ask you guys one question: how would you describe guys who do their training with a highly respected academy (Embry, Flight safety, of LH, SAS academies)??? Traitors, cheater, backstabbers??? Tell me....if some of these people have money to pay for a highly recognized school, and now they'll be hired soon after is that their fault? Or, is it their curse to have the money, or to make large investments in their training??

Now, I dont know about you, but if my dad had money to afford this (or of he was an airline pilot with a nice pay cheque), I would sure opt to go to one of these schools, rather than train where I did, and then get told by everyone how I got no time, need more float time, or actual IMC on my IFR ticket??? Huh! Maybe, schools should pump out pilots with 500hr and 100multi, not 200 then? I dont know? You tell me...

I stumbled across one school from Holland that does JAA CPL and cost 50,000euros, these folks get CPL, MIFR, MCC, ATPL frozen exams, and 300hrs, with 165 multi, and training is done in nice, sunny San Diego (final stuff is back in Holland). Plus they are affiliated with major airlines.

So you think that these guys who pay that dough will now go pump gas and clean moose bloodstains from Otters, or will they get somewhere more optimistic??

I think I answered my question about PPC as well. Either we report all CP who ask for them, and make them legally liable, or we stop arguing about this.

Silver Lining · Post by **Silver Lining** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:30 pm

What about the companies that hire these guys? I know of a few companies that will actually look for low time PPC'ed pilots. I've personally been beat out of a job a few times (that I know of) because a guy came along with a newly purchased PPC. Pissed me off big time. These guys are at least 3 years ahead of me in their careers. Do I hold a grudge against these guys? Not really! They only got what every chief pilot asks for when they show up on thier doorstep. "Do you have a PPC?" Almost every chief pilot I spoke with during my 3 year 'jobhunt' asked me the same thing. I think it's time to lay blame where it is due. On the cheap operators that hire these people. Believe me, I thought more than once about buying my PPC after having hundreds of doors closed in my face. In hindsite, I'm glad I didn't and things have worked out well. To those looking at getting ahead by taking this route I say, hang in there, it will happen and you'll be a better person for it. I don't want to name names (legal bullshit) but the companies that do this should somehow be identified and 'blacklisted' before more young people lose thier lives to these shoddy operators!

Conquest Driver · Post by **Conquest Driver** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:21 pm

OK, I went through the last 10 ads under the "Free Job Ads" heading in Av Canada. I excluded Instructor positions and I excluded Maintiainance positions.

Fayard Enterprises: Requires Type Rating

Wildcountry Airways: Prefers PPC
Wabusk Airways: Prefers PPC
AIT Airways : Perfers PPC

Storm Aviation: Requires 3000 hours on type (FK-50)
Storm Aviation: Requires 500 hours PIC on 757/767

Cawker and Young: Current single pilot PPC

Bolton Air: No PPC requirement specified

Horne Air Ltd.: Prefers 300 hours on type

Jennings River Air Service: No PPC or time on type specified. 1000 hours TT floats.

So, out of 10 employers, we have 1 (Bolton Air) who does not require a PPC or time on type.

We have a second (Jennings River Air Service) who does not require time on type, but has a really high float time requirement. PPC is not applicabe on a Cessna 180.

We have 7 employers who either want a PPC or time on type.

So where am I going with all of this?

Maybe instead of blaming 200 hour newbies, we should start looking at employers who demand time on type or a PPC? If an employer demands a PPC, well guess what? Somebody's going to go out and fill that demand.

If this was anything but aviation this wouldn't be called "Prostitution", instead, it would be called "Astute Business Sense".

Maybe we as an employee pool need to begin to distinguish between two types of employers.

Firstly, employers who demand total time or a particular type of time (Multi, Float, Whatever).

Secondly, those who demand a PPC or time on type.

I'd see the first as being legitmate. If an employer want 500 multi or 1000 float, or whatever, at the end of the day either he gets it or he lowers his requirements. However it is fair to the pilot candidates. Anyone can accumulate a particular type of time.

I have some concerns with the second.

It begs pilots to get into a bidding war. "You bought a Navajo PPC, well I bought a King Air PPC so I guess I'm more compeditive".

It begs pilots to jump jobs. Employer "B" pays $200 a month more, so a Pilot jumps from Employer "A" who just spent $20,000 on training.

Maybe we as pilots need to start keeping some mental notes as to who is asking for PPC's; and who is trying to recruite the best candiate, even if it may cost them a bit more in the short term?

scotothedoublet · Post by **scotothedoublet** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:10 pm

IMO buying a PPC doesn't equate to having time on type. I've always taken "time on type" to mean that you have been previously employed on type. Nor do I take "PPC preferred" to mean go out and pay for one. As for 1000TT for a 180 float job; there will likely be some applicants who qualify. If they asked for 200 TT and a float rating they'd be buried in resumes and phone calls.

"Astute Business Sense"

Anyone with this attribute would spend his/her money on a BComm or BEng vs pilot training in the first place.

neechi · Post by **neechi** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:33 am

Cdriver;

Prefers PPC= please dont waste our fax paper unless you have something to offer, ie experience.

Remember the ad a few months ago....8000tt 4000 turbine 2000 floats (or something like that) to fly a caravan for a lodge for 5 months? Do you think they actually found a person with those hours? My theory is that they post high reqs to keep people with nowhere near that time from bugging them.

Employers would ask you to fly for minimum wage, does this mean we should let it happen? To buy a ppc is wrong.

smokin_rivet · Post by **smokin_rivet** » Sat May 14, 2005 8:06 am

Companies should hire whoever they want..but the blacklist??? and that attitude?? wowza

I have never paid for training beyond the IFR, but i'd do a training bond..its simple security.
Maybe those guys are lucky they arent working for him.

Theres my cent and a 1/2

4hrstovegas · Post by **4hrstovegas** » Sat May 14, 2005 9:05 am

I'm an advocate of employers paying for the training that their pilots need to move up a fleet. I agree that pilots should earn that right with hard work. But I'm surprised at how many people on this thread mention "Daddy's money" with seeming disdain. Youngback, you seem to separate these pilots by economic status; who cares how big someone's bank account is? What does that have to do with work ethic? Has it occured to you that maybe a few of these people have actually earned the money slugging it out at some other point in their lives, but just haven't been taught "the rules" of job-hunting?

I know it's infuriating to be passed over for somebody who has more money than you, but perhaps we should be looking at the employers who have helped create this situation. Lots of companies snipe PPC'd pilots from other companies, or advertise "500 hrs and PPC." To a newbie, it may not be known that buying a PPC is a no-no; perhaps instead of blacklisting these people, somebody should let them know how things are. We're all competing on some level, but where is the fraternity here?

Flying Newf · Post by **Flying Newf** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:18 am

Okay guys, here's the deal....I received a bunch of resumes emailed to me in response to an job ad posted on this site. A good percentage of these were from low time guys offering to buy themselves a PPC, or work for free, to secure the position.

Since this is where those guys saw the posting in the first place, I thought I'd start a thread in regards to my disgust with these guys and what they are doing to an already struggling industry. I am glad to see that I am not alone in my dislike of their methods, but saddened to see that there are guys out there that seem to think this is appropriate, even after a discussion and justification of why its wrong.

Nobody was blacklisted, no names were ever used. I did discuss with some other operators what I thought of this tactic to securing a job, only to discover that I was not alone in my unwillingness to hire these guys. Furthermore, the logic to this thread was that maybe you low time guys would get the point...buying a PPC is wrong, and for you operators requiring guys to pay for their training...that's the sh*ts too.

Maybe if we would all, pilots and operators alike get some self-respect and dignity, this industry might be stopped from slipping even further down the sh*t covered slope that its on. Pilots might get the pay they deserve for taking lives into their hands, & maybe it would cost more to fly than to take the train.

All and all, this was a good thread, with the exception of the few who focused on the wrong part (the black-listing), and the few who don’t understand English well enough to tell the difference between black-list and black-mail.
Thanks

learcapt · Post by **learcapt** » Sat May 14, 2005 1:52 pm

keep trying to cover your tracks now flying newf...YOU said they were now black-listed, resumes are sent in confidence. hope you never get that big job, because you are a complete jackass for what you said on here. what do you fly and for who...just curious..im sure you wont answer that.

Flying Newf · Post by **Flying Newf** » Sat May 14, 2005 3:40 pm

I would expect a comment like that from a moron like you. I bet you bought your FO seat on that Lear, and will probably never make Captain with your 50 hours PIC. If you don’t have anything constructive to say get off the thread! Or I'll tell your Mommy you have been playing on the internet unsupervised again!

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat May 14, 2005 5:20 pm

Morons

I would sue your ass if you blacklisted me, and I would demand a public apology, and I would make you fly the line naked for a week to boot.

I hope your boss reads this and realises that he's got a doofus working for him.

Blacklisted - sheesh

Youngback · Post by **Youngback** » Sat May 14, 2005 6:33 pm

4hrstovegas,

I know that a bank account shows nothing about a candidates work ethic. My point was that by selecting only the fresh guys with PPC's, they may be passing over a much more competent candidate who simply could not or (more hopefully) would not go and get a PPC. I know I've worked damn hard to get where I am now and I will not lower myself and pay for my own PPC. I am happily working for a company that pays for employees training, does not ask for PPC's, and I will return the favour by being a faithful employee. This is how it should work. We can talk about why it doesn't but it's been beaten to death already.

There may be some people who have no other options but to get a PPC for whatever reason. I have never met one of these people though. It really irked me to see people getting Navajo PPC's, then working for Regency, while living at home, all paid for by the individuals parents. No one had to tell me that was against the rules for it to strike a sour note in me. My inner voice told me that was wrong. It really is all about how much self respect you have and what you are willing to let a company do to you.

It's places like here that I wonder about the fraternity in aviation as well.

Peace

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:22 pm

Just the fact that this post exists speaks volumes of aviation in this country. No respect.

T

Flying Newf · Post by **Flying Newf** » Sat May 14, 2005 8:21 pm

xsbank

Two men are driving through New Jersey when they get
pulled over by a State Trooper. The Trooper walks up
and taps on the window with his nightstick.

The driver rolls down the window and WHACK, the
Trooper smacks him in the head with the stick. The
driver asks, "What the hell was that for?"

The Trooper answers, "You're in New Jersey son. When
we pull you over, you better have your license ready
when we get to your car."

The driver says, "I'm sorry, Officer, I'm not from
around here." The Trooper runs a check on the guy's
license, and he's clean. He gives the guy his license
back, walks around to the passenger side, and taps on
the window.

The passenger rolls down the window and WHACK, the
Trooper smacks him on the head with the nightstick.

The passenger asks, "What'd you do that for?"

The Trooper says, "Just making your wish come true."

The passenger asks, "Making what wish come true?"

The Trooper says, "I know that two miles down the road
you're gonna say to your buddy, "I wish that jerk
would've tried that garbage with me!"

Buying a PPC

Buying a PPC

PPC

PPC NO