Crash @ North Spirit Lake Ont (4 dead, 1 survivor)

[FL280]

Another completely avoidable tradgedy. My sympathies go out to those affected by this. Maybe this is the wakeup call TC needs to finally do something about this. For christ sakes, what else has to happen??

[Cat Driver]

This accident is just another tiny blip on the radar screen in T.C. 's world.

The inertia within their system is systemic, and is only exceeded by the incompetence and moral rot within their higher management group.

I hope I am wrong, but let's wait and see.

[ozone]

Things never seem to change...again it takes people to die for TC to get off their asses. I can't understand these company's getting away with innocent lives being gambled over and over and over. Hopefully keystone will finally get shut down but unfortunately there will always be another company next in line.
The worst part about this accident is unfortunately it was a matter of time.

My condolences

[fuzzynutz]

Does anyone else think that Keystone managed to keep their AOC was because their Ops Manager used to be head of enforcement at TC.

http://www.keystoneair.mb.ca/Management.html
Operations Manager: Ed Ratzlaff
This Guy was never in TC. Where are you getting your info from?

http://www.avaerocouncil.ca/index.php/e ... cilitators
quoted from above:
"Ed Ratzlaffed ratzlaff

Ed Ratzlaff is the General Manager for Keystone Aircraft Maintenance Ltd. at the St. Andrews Airport in Manitoba. He has been with Keystone since 2004. Before that he worked as pilot and mechanic in all sizes of aviation companies from local flying school to a national airline. Ed has served on the Manitoba Provincial Trade Advisory Committee for the AME trade and recently participated in CCAA’s working group for the development of short courses. By trade Ed is a licensed AME and commercial pilot. He also holds degrees in education and arts. In addition to English, he is fluent in German and Spanish. Ed lives in Winnipeg where he volunteers on boards and committees in the not-for-profit sector."

Hmmmm wonder what he really does there. Ops-Manager / PRM of the Air Service and the GM of the maintenance. Wow there is a conflict of intrest.

[Les Habitants]

So does anybody know the names of the pilot? Any Keystone guys here who can help me out?

[AJV]

It appears to me that all the young little pilots must have heard that a pilot in Manitoba got fired last week for returning due to icing and U/S prop deice in a Cessna Caravan. Is this a proper time to slag criminal operators? YESSS!!!

Seriously? Name names. Lets slag these maggots!

Agreed. Name'em so they can be avoided. Maybe if that young pilot who got fired would have turned around and knocked the douche-cock out then they would think twice about sending pilot to risk it all for their job.

[snoopy]

Maybe someone should track down that pilot that got fired and offer them a job (assuming he/she normally practices those kinds of good decisions, and assuming that's really why he/she got fired)? That's how you stand up for, and support good decision making.
Just a thought....
Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[2R]

What ever happened to the RNAV approach for CKQ3 ?

[jona]

Well, take a look at who flies caravans around here. Only a couple choices.

It appears to me that all the young little pilots must have heard that a pilot in Manitoba got fired last week for returning due to icing and U/S prop deice in a Cessna Caravan. Is this a proper time to slag criminal operators? YESSS!!!

Seriously? Name names. Lets slag these maggots!

Agreed. Name'em so they can be avoided. Maybe if that young pilot who got fired would have turned around and knocked the douche-cock out then they would think twice about sending pilot to risk it all for their job.

[Les Habitants]

Well, take a look at who flies caravans around here. Only a couple choices.

Missinnippi and Northway are the only ones that come to mind. But I'm pretty sure that Northway wouldn't do that, and I've never heard anything bad about Missinnippi.

I can't believe all this. Maybe an accident has never effected me this much, but (At the risk of sounding girly) I feel like crying. And I never even knew the guy. Fly safe people

[jona]

Well, take a look at who flies caravans around here. Only a couple choices.

Missinnippi and Northway are the only ones that come to mind. But I'm pretty sure that Northway wouldn't do that, and I've never heard anything bad about Missinnippi.

I can't believe all this. Maybe an accident has never effected me this much, but (At the risk of sounding girly) I feel like crying. And I never even knew the guy. Fly safe people

You are forgetting the fine folks at Morningstar , remember them ?
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=11472

[Doc]

Well, take a look at who flies caravans around here. Only a couple choices.

Missinnippi and Northway are the only ones that come to mind. But I'm pretty sure that Northway wouldn't do that, and I've never heard anything bad about Missinnippi.

I can't believe all this. Maybe an accident has never effected me this much, but (At the risk of sounding girly) I feel like crying. And I never even knew the guy. Fly safe people

You are forgetting the fine folks at Morningstar , remember them ?
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=11472

I think Morningstar is a little more sensitive to ice problems......they sure wouldn't give someone grief for turning back.

[BEFAN5]

I've overheard Morningstar turn back multiple times. They end up waiting or subcontracting the freight. They are a clean op.

Tc needs to take a good long look at keystone. Judging by the statements on here, the RCMP might need to lend a hand.

Rip fellow aviator.

[cdnpilot77]

and I've never heard anything bad about Missinnippi.

What??? I am trying to pick up the sarcasm here, but unable...I will chalk it up to your emotions, but are you talking about the same Missinippi that had their OC suspended in the past year? And for a fatal accident none the less??

[ywg9]

Agree 100% with bede g.r is as much scum as the rest managment...i mean family. C and A are probably sleeping just fine tonight dont forget they have a restraining order against t.c. we all know how the conversation about not going would have went with the cp (not that A is worth the title). If tc cant or wont shut them down tell everyone you know not to fly with them, even tho they are voted manitobas best airline. I wouldnt put my dog on there planes. My thoughts go out to everyone affected by this crash

[40echotango]

This sure isn't getting off topic is i t? To me, it sound like there is more to gapper's caravan story than we are given. It sounds like a real sh*tty situation regardless.

As for the real reason I am here, RIP crew and passengers of KEE 231 who parrished. Life, and careers are never supposed to be ended like this. Many hearts ache for you and your families

40ET.

[Les Habitants]

and I've never heard anything bad about Missinnippi.

What??? I am trying to pick up the sarcasm here, but unable...I will chalk it up to your emotions, but are you talking about the same Missinippi that had their OC suspended in the past year? And for a fatal accident none the less??

Sorry, what I meant is that I do not believe they push their pilots to fly in conditions uncomfortable to them...this coming from some of their former pilots. But maybe thats old news.

If you think about it, almost any company has a legitimate reason to lose their AOC. TC just doesn't pull them until after big time crashes.

[tripleseven]

I'm kinda hoping that Transport Canada ends up in the spotlight over this one. I think their SMS bullcrap system is partially to blame for this one. Safety costs money. Every 703/4 and 5 operator thinks that they are safe until they have to write a cheque. Why else would TC switched to this lame system? Surely they don't have as many inspectors on the payroll now. This is not a very well thought out post, but hopefully everyone can get my point. We will see what the recommendations of the TSB are.

[DanWEC]

GFA for 18Z, a few hours after the accident. Couldn't get the 12Z ones as too much time had passed.

Good lord.
"flyable weather"? This coming from a previous TC official?? Granted that gfa was a bit older, but back it up a bit and it would put the localized surface level moderate icing, 800 agl clg, and FREEZING DZ (!!) right over CKQ3.
Sounds pretty callous and somewhat conspicuous of this spokesperson clown to immediately dismiss the weather as the cause. Sounds like a futile deflection.
But really, i'll admit that myself and others are guilty of slightly tasteless speculation, it could be anything that lead to this horrible tragedy- icing, cfit, mechanical, pilot or management decision, and regardless, my thoughts go out to everyone affected.

[Flightnurse1]

To all making negative comments re Keystone Incident;


In my experience, a mature, professional and seasoned pilot would not make these comments without waiting for more information to come to light. It should be a wake up call and reminder for us all. This could happen to any one of us and we should show a little compassion and not jump to conclusions.
My sympathies to all involved

FlightNurse1

[T-roper]

That's an ugly GFA

Condolences to the families that lost loved ones

[cncpc]

Maybe someone should track down that pilot that got fired and offer them a job (assuming he/she normally practices those kinds of good decisions, and assuming that's really why he/she got fired)? That's how you stand up for, and support good decision making.
Just a thought....
Cheers,
Kirsten B.

I'd like someone to PM me and put me in touch. I know that national media would like to hear that story.

I agree with you Snoopy. I'd have suggestion beyond that, but I'm not yet ready to put this down to Keystone or anybody. I'd like to hear the Winnipeg weather, and any Pireps along the route. The Keystone man says it must have been an isolated squall. If it was, then some here are putting this forum in lawsuit danger.

[Duukar]

Almost every pilot in Winnipeg knew it was only a matter of time.

How much are we to blame for not burning this company to the ground?

How would we even go about doing so without losing jobs and being blacklisted in the industry.

Im sure every person who moved through this company has several horror stories to tell. Is it not time for the truth to come out?

If we stay silent wont the poor pilot get the blame? Once again..
Evil exists.. Because we stand by and let it..

Im very upset about this. I feel very sorry for the families who lost loved ones.

Im getting a nasty feeling that the pilot will carry all the blame.. C and A know how to pressure a young pilot expertly.. Evil.

[Bede]

Does anyone else think that Keystone managed to keep their AOC was because their Ops Manager used to be head of enforcement at TC.

http://www.keystoneair.mb.ca/Management.html
Operations Manager: Ed Ratzlaff
This Goon was never in TC. Where are you getting your info from?

George Riopka was their Ops Manager when they got their OC back a few years ago and he was boasting about how they were now the safest airline in MB because they had SMS.

Riopka was once head of enforcement in Moncton.

[CID]

Nice little lynch mob forming here. Maybe you guys should chill a few days and wait for details before you destroy people's lives on this forum. Aviation in Canada is a relatively small community. Posting names in this very negative manner should be reserved for cool heads and the dissemination of facts.

As far as SMS and "oversight" goes, no program can prevent every accident. Operators have been doing stupid things as long as aviation has been around.

SMS doesn't prevent accidents all by itself but it does keep the executive accountable. If the axes comes down this time it will come down squarely on the executive.