Being Bullied!

[cdnpilot77]

Seems the accident in NWO has spun a few side threads and so why not one more, so that one can stay on track.

Why and how is it possible for companies to create a culture where it is ok to bully young pilots into essentially sacrificing themselves so the owner can make a buck? I think the only way to stop it, is to understand the who, what, where, when, why, and how this practise is allowed to happen. And it is allowed to happen, because we hear about it every day, especially when one of the shady ops post a job ad or has an accident. SO...Who>What>When>Where>Why>How? I dont have an answer, so this is why I am sending out there. Most of all, how do we as a pilot group put an end to it?

Incidentily, I have never been "forced" into weather that I was not comfortable with or that was below applicable standards...I have been ridiculed for it in past jobs, but currently with some solid reasoning of "you hired me to keep you and your airplane safe, so why would you want to sacrifice the plane and yourself?" My answer if there was a continued pushing "if you want to fly it, be my guest, I am not going anywhere today". That usually puts and end to the discussion.

I have very good relationship with my boss that was formed prior to being employed by them which makes it easier to hold my ground, but for some that are straight out of the FTU or on the ramp/dock, they do not know what the real world is. They are grateful and feel obliged or whatever to do anything and everything the boss says or they will be back to throwing bags etc (in their minds or possibly realistically).

Unfortunately, when they get tied up with companies like the reputation of the accident company, they THINK its the way things are done everywhere. People are ostriches and bury their heads in the sand when they get an opportunity, especially one that they believe could be their "big break". They hear the cowboy stories and feel invincible because so many have "done it before". Is that an excuse, absolutely not, no way, no how!! There is never an excuse for being unsafe! But that culture of "learning the commercial ropes" from these guys are why sh*#bag employers need to be shut down.

A significant number of pilots do not know what AvCanada is nor do they visit and read the boards so they do not hear about this stuff from experienced members like Cat, Doc, BPF, flyinthebug etc that have lived and seen it. FTU's certainly aren't informing the young pilots about this culture, at least not in my experience....and why? My guess is because many of the instructors have not lived outside the FTU and seen it themselves or the college admissions people know nothing about aviation at all. But again, as a professional, our job is to get ALL the relavant info to being a safe pilot.

I love my wife, I love my life, I wouldn't risk either of them so someone can get to their dinner reservation on time or get a fresh bag of chips.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Doc]

Ah, bullying pilots. Sometimes its pretty blatant. Fly the trip or I'll find somebody who will kind of thing. It trickles down to....Gee I have 10K on account with these guys....if I don't go, they'll fire my ass and I'll be out 10K....I have a wife and kids to feed. There are also "perceived" instances of bullying......Not being "bullied" at all, but feeling guilty by not going. And, pretty much everything in between. I think everybody has been there...
Thoughts?

[TeePeeCreeper]

Good thread CndPilot77!

You can see the effects of having been bullied on some members here when someone like "EDITED AS THAT POSTER HAS SINCE EDITED HER TASTELESS POST" gives this now decesed pilot a "kudos" for having been able to intercept extended centerline on an ill fated OBS approach. There is something fundamentaly wrong when warm blooded aviators seem to think it OK to give a dead (see "now cold blooded") pilot the big thumb-up? WTF???

(I know some here will tell me that I'm making assumptions here, but we know the weather was solid IFR, and know how some companies "git her done" with "home made "meat-ball" GPS approaches)

I was once a "hero" for some companies and luckly have since seen the error of my ways (due to a GREAT CP) and the mentality that some employers assisted in giving me in the past. Thank god I did, and that I now work for a company which would fire me should I bust a safe ALT!

Regards,
TPC

[flyinthebug]

Great topic cdnpilot77....thanks for the kind words.

I have been fired twice in my career. Both times for refusing a flight due to wx. Both were on the coast and both were float ops. Did it hurt my career? Not really. Some bad feelings existed for quite some time, but it really didnt have any negative effect on my career (except for the immediate need to find another job). Luckily by that point in my career, I had other doors open.

The problem is what you point out, how do we "inform" the guys and gals coming fresh out of college/flight schools? My 1st job I was on the dock at 0530 loading the DHC3 and my 206. I flew for no base and .26 per SM. When you only make money when your in the air, you tend to push weather, and sometimes far beyond your capability at that early stage of your career. I look back and know I made some really stupid wx related decisions...but at the time, I believed I could handle it.

When you discuss company culture and how we got here, we only have to look at ourselves and how and who trained us. My 1st exposure was to a very highly experienced group of bush pilots. 2 had over 25 yrs on floats and when we would sit in the "lounge" between flights and listen to the stories of times they pushed etc...it somehow made me think that being a "cowboy" would make me more accepted. So I pushed far beyond my own limits in an attempt to keep up with them. If the Otter went, I went. If the beech18 went, I went. I believe if we had a mentoring program that was mandated as part of getting your 1st job, it would alleviate alot of this pressure on the inexperienced pilots coming up.

I have been bullied early in my career as stated but I simply accepted my fate and walked away. At least I was alive to go home to my family. The problem is there is always someone else who will do the flight, so you end up looking weak if you refuse and someone else pulls off the mission. Its easy to bully the new guys, and it took me 5 years in the industry before I became "confident" enough in my wx decisions to tell even my CP, no way, no how. We have to reach the inexperienced group of pilots, because most or all with experience know when to say no...and the bullies know they cant bully us anymore. Kinda like the school yard in grade 7...isnt it? Sad but true.

Fly safe.

[Cat Driver]

F I N A L L Y !!!!!

Avcanada is becoming a learning centre for the new pilots as well as some of the older pilots who read this forum.

Bully owners have been around as long as there has been commercial operators.

The best way to stop a bully is for a group to stand up to the bully, that works.

I have been informed that some news media people still read this forum, maybe they will take notice if enough of you express your feelings here.

. E.

[Cat Driver]

If we examine the willful act of flying an airplane with passengers on board in contravention of the law is that not the same as pre planned homicide if you end up killing them?

[cdnpilot77]

If we examine the willful act of flying an airplane with passengers on board in contravention of the law is that not the same as pre planned homicide if you end up killing them?

It is in a car, why not an airplane? Vehicular homicide I believe its referred to

[Cat Driver]

Exactly.

[Just another canuck]

If we examine the willful act of flying an airplane with passengers on board in contravention of the law is that not the same as pre planned homicide if you end up killing them?

A little far I think... that's like saying speeding in your car is also pre-planned homicide.

I think even if TC had the will to police these "bully" companies to the extent that it would actually make a difference, they don't have a way. There are too many operators and too many planes and no way of watching all of it all the time. It's up to us as pilots, being the last line of defence against a dangerous situation, to make sure we are operating in a legal, and more importantly, safe environment.

I've never understood why pilots put themselves in harms way for a a load of groceries or so a group of fisherman can get in "on time." Do your job, but don't forget to look out for number one.

[Doc]

Ever been bullied Cat? Orville or Wilbur ever get on your case for turning down trips?
I remember one time a couple of examples that happened to me. The senior Deluce tried to "force" me to fly a ski Dak from Timmins to Pickle Lake. It was actually freezing rain in Timmins at the time. He postured. I stood on my hind legs and never really got along there since.
I was "talked into" taking a load of pop and chips from Red Lake to YST in very bad wx. Closing in on YRL, YIV was toast and YST had no approach. I told them I'd descend to sector, and then go to YWG for dinner at the KEG....and that's just what I did.
I've done a couple of planned missed approaches in my day......a couple thanks to the Ontario Air Ambulance folks...MEDCOM. Can't tell those people anything....they know it all.
Today, bullying pilots is much more insidious. These guys are being forced into situations way beyond their experience or skill level. The results shouldn't surprise anyone.

TeePeeCreeper...that comment by "causethecaravancan" blew me away as well. A perfect example of today's neophyte pilot's attitude.

[cdnpilot77]

trouble is, if it were a cabbie or limo driver etc etc, would the managers of the company take the blame if they didnt have a properly trained driver? Doubt it, the driver would because he was driving without proper credentials...sleezeballs seem to win because they know how to expose loopholes and have no conscience....its no different

[TeePeeCreeper]

If we examine the willful act of flying an airplane with passengers on board in contravention of the law is that not the same as pre planned homicide if you end up killing them?

It is in a car, why not an airplane? Vehicular homicide I believe its referred to

Hard to do after the fact, when everyone is dead.

But heck, let's give a big thumbs up to the pilot who's no longer here as one posted implied we "should do" in the accident thread... right? Fox's sake, what's wrong with this picture???? Seriously!

[Just another canuck]

If we examine the willful act of flying an airplane with passengers on board in contravention of the law is that not the same as pre planned homicide if you end up killing them?

It is in a car, why not an airplane? Vehicular homicide I believe its referred to

If it were unintentional it would be manslaughter, an offence for which pilots have been charged in the past.

[cdnpilot77]

Ever been bullied Cat? Orville or Wilbur ever get on your case for turning down trips?

[cdnpilot77]

I am very curious to hear from snoopy and her experience with this as a female in a male dominated domain of bush flying in the early part of her career.

[Cat Driver]

Yes of course I have been bullied, it would be unreasonable to suggest otherwise because the industry is full of operators who bully, either overtly or insidiously.

Working for Austin Airways was when I learned to make good decisions and not push my luck, after that I could not be bullied.

I got fired a few times for refusing to be bullied but I'm still here.

Yeh, Doc Stan was a real good example of who not to work for......

[cdnpilot77]

Working for Austin Airways was when I learned to make good decisions and not push my luck, after that I could not be bullied.

Can you elaborate?

[KAG]

I once got screamed at by my CP for not taking a king Air into a short narrow strip with a 50 KT Xwind and severe turb to pick up a sick preme and fly back to YYC.
My response was fly down and teach me how to land in a 50kt Xwind (this aside from killing the preme in the isolete), I got screamed at some more and hung up on. Some trips just cannot be done, some should not be attempted.
What is a good technique to learn is the art of selling the customer it's in their best interest to wait. Then the boss cant yell at you for canceling a trip-the customer delayed it.

[Cat Driver]

Yes of course I can elaborate.

In 1967 I was hired by Austin Airways to fly the Anson's doing aerial mag flying, after the first winter on the Anson's I was moved over to the DC3 /PBY side of the airline.

Jack Austin ran a good airline and there was never any pressure on us pilots to bend the rules, I had over a thousand hours of FO time on the DC3 when I got my captain check ride with Jim Bell their chief pilot....he ran a good operation and I learned what not to do there.

I met my wife in 1968 when she flew from Timmins to POV with us in the DC3 and the PBY where she was starting her career as a new school teacher.

It is very difficult for a new pilot not to submit to pressure to bend the rules........but if you refuse to be bullied your career can not possibly be compromised as you will find decent employers........it is a small industry and most of us know who the rule breakers in the industry are and we respect those of you who stand up to these pricks and refuse to be bullied.

[Cat Driver]

Another important piece of info I would like everyone here to have.

Back in that time period of aviation we had a very good working relationship with T.C. and some of our best friends were T.C. Inspectors who not only did our check rides they were our mentors.

The industry is suffering now because T.C. Has changed into a self serving monstrosity that has lost sight of their reason for being, now it is run by bureaucrats who have no clue what aviation should be, don't buy the argument that is a lack of funding that is the cause of lack of direct oversight......it is because of unethical management....period.

Approved by your minister of transport and your prime minister of course, unless they are so Fu.kin stupid they really don't understand their job.

[Doc]

Back in that time period of aviation we had a very good working relationship with T.C. and some of our best friends were T.C. Inspectors who not only did our check rides they were our mentors.

So very true. TC folks were in the "game" to help us not get ourselves killed. They would brain storm with us on the best way to get things done. We had a great working relationship with these guys. Guys like Martin Braeman, Bruce Carter, even Stu Hill was a nice guy if he wasn't failing one of your friends or students on their initial IFR rides. Called Stu "The Smiling Assassin"! A buddy of mine kicked old Stu's ass out of the Aztec in YHM after Stu wanted to see yet another back course! The thing was 60$ an hour wet, and my buddy wasn't made of money!

We used to go talk to the weather guys as well. Join them for coffee, shoot the breeze about the weather. Get REAL briefings. First came the KIOSKS, then the AWAS.....now you can see 30 miles, but you still need a special, because the machine is calling it 1 mile.....some things really were better back in the day! We don't just say that...

[captain_dc]

Young FO: How is it that you make such great decisions all the time?
Old Experienced Captain: Lots experience.
FO: How do you get such useful experience?
Captain: Bad decisions.

[snoopy]

TeePeeCreeper...that comment by "causethecaravancan" blew me away as well. A perfect example of today's neophyte pilot's attitude.

Ok... I missed this? What'd I miss?

[snoopy]

I am very curious to hear from snoopy and her experience with this as a female in a male dominated domain of bush flying in the early part of her career.

Well! I have to say I am flattered you ask my opinion, but I suspect my answer is most likely going to be quite different from what you're expecting.

Certainly breaking into, existing and (hopefully) advancing in the aviation industry as woman does present certain challenges.

However, either because of that, or because I personally happen to be an outside-the-box creative thinker, it so happens that my first job was in an out-of the-way, far off place and my very first chief pilot was the best one I've ever worked for (except I'd like to think I've been a good Chief Pilot, and the fellow who is presently my Chief Pilot is an enormously stand-up guy...). In my first job, I was properly mentored and supported, and learned many valuable lessons that I'd like to think served me well throughout my career.

Not to say I haven't done (many) stupid things, under horrible supervision, before seeing the error of my ways and acquiring the confidence in my experience - much like most pilots. Certainly during that period, I can say I was pressured by both peers and management to do things I wouldn't do now, but I can't say this pressure was any more or less than would be experienced by anyone - male or female.

I can say, from the female perspective, that we have to (at least in the beginning, and to some degrees always), work so much harder just to be there in the first place, that we're maybe better equipped to deal with the bullying from the get go. You'd really have to be a woman to understand that point.

For myself, as a person (neither male or female) and over the course of my career, I can tell you I have been bullied, screamed at, punished and on one occasion fired, for not being willing to do something completely stupid, for standing up for others (in a position of management) or for grounding an unserviceable aircraft. You can read all about it in my book someday.

I've had to go through so much shit to get where I am today, and achieve my dreams/goals that the assertiveness required for that far outweighs any required for PIC decision making. Consequently I've occasionally been labeled as "difficult" or "uncooperative" or "doesn't get along with others" but most often by those that were of the bullying type and didn't like my assertive style. In some circumstances I've been told I intimidate males with inferiority complex, which is I suppose a direct result of being female, however I can't be responsible for the failings of small-minded people.

I have successfully handled many emergencies and adverse situations without loss of life or damage to equipment. Heck, I've even laid my own career on the line and sabotaged it myself by speaking out in favour of aviation safety and improved conditions. I really can't think of any circumstance where I wouldn't continue to exercise good airmanship and PIC capabilities.

I'd like to think you would be equally impressed by any other woman you happen to meet or work with in this industry.

Best Regards,
Kirsten B.

(edited for late-night lack of grammar syndrome)

[Driving Rain]

If you drive your car on road that's been closed due to adverse weather and have an accident your insurance is void...why not with aircraft?