AC low cost carrier closer to becoming a reality

[Ah_yeah]

Strategy is something both parties have to consider carefully. The company is used to getting their way with labour since CCAA and has the potential to cloud their thinking. TA1 was a very unpopular document amongst the majority and could easily put pilots into a "little to lose" scenario if it is some how "rammed" into effect. An all out strike requires a pretty strong mandate to be taken seriously. A demoralised 50% can do a fair bit of harm to the bottom line. That could stiffle the exit strategy for the institutional shareholders. 1 dollar per share could seem rich if this all unravels.

[Fanblade]

Fanblade is wrong on several counts. The original renegotiation of the contract was done outside of the normal, legally binding, process. TA1 was not recommended by ACPA. Because it was conceived outside of normal bargaining, it has no legal value. For the CIRB to impose a contract that was not recommended by the association, and that was turned down aggressively by the membership is inviting legal action.

LE

Yes formal negotiations were late. They were still entered toward the end of TA1.

Two, the precedence is that the arbitrator pays attention to the recommendation of the NC (MOA) as they are the closest to the action. Not the executive or the membership.

Read the CUPE arbitration IF you want reality.

[bearinmind]

Just to play devils advocate, are we SURE we are going to be supplying the pilots for LCC or future ventures for AC? Im just not so sure. If this were to happen is it worth hedging our bets a little?

Im talking as pilots not as the company...
Our competition for regional flying is Jazz and Sky Regional. Is it worth approaching the Sky Regional group with ACPA membership? It seems to be a no brainer, lets us negotiate the rates for SR regional flying. Jazz, I dont know how to prevent that group from competing, Global solutions? The crossover LOU? Fill the ranks of Jazz with people that want to work here, maybe they want to protect this job?

Just looking for a good hedge, I just dont feel like we are in control of this thing.

[Fanblade]

They want you concerned beyond what is really at stake. They want you demoralized. Don't allow it.

Worst case we will see TA1 rammed our throat minus some of the pay increases through government legislated arbitration.

If we give in now? We get TA1.

If you want better? Just remember this wont be easy.

That's it. No sugar coating.

[ratherbee]

No...and I am repeating myself LE, we will get LESS than what was offered.

[ratherbee]

Worst case? I was talking best case. Worst case is less than what the others got. How about 1/1/1/1/2 or so?

[Ah_yeah]

Ratherbee, panic much ?

[teacher]

Just to play devils advocate, are we SURE we are going to be supplying the pilots for LCC or future ventures for AC? Im just not so sure. If this were to happen is it worth hedging our bets a little?

Im talking as pilots not as the company...
Our competition for regional flying is Jazz and Sky Regional. Is it worth approaching the Sky Regional group with ACPA membership? It seems to be a no brainer, lets us negotiate the rates for SR regional flying. Jazz, I dont know how to prevent that group from competing, Global solutions? The crossover LOU? Fill the ranks of Jazz with people that want to work here, maybe they want to protect this job?

Just looking for a good hedge, I just dont feel like we are in control of this thing.

Working together is always the best option. Sadly some in both groups feel that protecting your current position is more important than the risk of taking a step back later to eventually take 2 steps forward.

[duranium]

Here's a knuckleball from an outsider, feel free to jump in and rebuke the following

With all those +60 flyboys looking to retain their position, my question to you experts is this: what would or will stop your company from offering those flying jobs on the low cost carrier ( ei: actively recruiting them ) to these folks and ( 1 ) make it stick ( 2 ) continue to pay them their full pension ? AC has just to structure that low cost so as to make it untouchable to mainline metal drivers.

These still warm bodies over the ACPA hill ( +++ 60 ) are trained to AC standards and ready to go, seems a spot on idea to this observer so what say you, you other folks in the trenches ?

Duranium

[yycflyguy]

Here's a knuckleball from an outsider, feel free to jump in and rebuke the following

With all those +60 flyboys looking to retain their position, my question to you experts is this: what would or will stop your company from offering those flying jobs on the low cost carrier ( ei: actively recruiting them ) to these folks and ( 1 ) make it stick ( 2 ) continue to pay them their full pension ? AC has just to structure that low cost so as to make it untouchable to mainline metal drivers.

These still warm bodies over the ACPA hill ( +++ 60 ) are trained to AC standards and ready to go, seems a spot on idea to this observer so what say you, you other folks in the trenches ?

Duranium

Scope protection

[Stu Pidasso]

ratherbee:

It is tragic that we have those among us, that are rubbing their hands together hoping we get screwed. So they can walk around beaking off; "I told you so."

Instead working together for an overall improvement in the state of the Airline Pilot Profession. Somehow punting that POS TA1 over the horizon, is personal in certain circles.

[mbav8r]

So, from inside info I am told there was language in TA1 that basically said for every widebody added to mainline, they(AC) can add 2 705s to "regional" and every narrowbody 1 705 to "regional", not Jazz, regional.
That said now on top of the rumor Sky Service is going to reappear as AC LCC but another rumor around the Sky camp is they are going to be operating 705s in the future and they will also be operating out of Pearson sometime this year.
I don't think your scope protection will be helping you anymore yycflyguy, given the government and their willingness to side with corporations.

[altiplano]

Stand tall. God speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8i5NLyXZdc

[yycflyguy]

So, from inside info I am told there was language in TA1 that basically said for every widebody added to mainline, they(AC) can add 2 705s to "regional" and every narrowbody 1 705 to "regional", not Jazz, regional.

Nope. Not what I read in TA1.

That said now on top of the rumor Sky Service is going to reappear as AC LCC but another rumor around the Sky camp is they are going to be operating 705s in the future and they will also be operating out of Pearson sometime this year.

Nope. Your rumour is busted.

I don't think your scope protection will be helping you anymore yycflyguy, given the government and their willingness to side with corporations.

You are confusing government intervention with the collective bargaining process of several labour groups and established contractual protections. SkyRegional was the bastard child "let" from a previous MEC. There is an ongoing grievance. I don't suspect we will win as it was approved at one point. Thanks Bruce. That does not diminish the power of the current scope protections written in our CBA. This aint QANTAS.

[TheStig]

Here's a knuckleball from an outsider, feel free to jump in and rebuke the following

With all those +60 flyboys looking to retain their position, my question to you experts is this: what would or will stop your company from offering those flying jobs on the low cost carrier ( ei: actively recruiting them ) to these folks and ( 1 ) make it stick ( 2 ) continue to pay them their full pension ? AC has just to structure that low cost so as to make it untouchable to mainline metal drivers.

These still warm bodies over the ACPA hill ( +++ 60 ) are trained to AC standards and ready to go, seems a spot on idea to this observer so what say you, you other folks in the trenches ?

Duranium

I know you're just trying to stir the pot, but I'll bite on this anyways.

If anyone was actually interested in trying to start a true LCC in North America they would be well advised to turn and run 180 degrees from any active or retired "Legacy Carrier" pilot. The safety of hiring experienced pilots? The greedy suits that start/invest in start-up airlines assume they will have a safe product (as does the travelling public). True LCC's like JetStar, SpiceJet, and EasyJet have pilots show up on their doorstep with type ratings in hand (bought and payed for by the pilots themselves). RyanAir has taken this one step further, and actually charges potential cabin crew an application fee!

For better or worse the right culture just isn't there. You may see your experience as invaluable, but all an executive sees is a pilot familiar with an 'old' airline mentality. Words like 'onerous pairing', 'extra fuel, just incase', 'adequate crew rest facilities', 'pension plan', and 'contract limits'. Have been replaced by terms like 'CARs limits', 'Stat fuel', 'Re-filing mid-flight', 'bidding restrictions', and 'Single-engine taxi'.

[duranium]

TheStig

Appreciate your opinion to a fair and honest question.

Remember Jetsgo ? Losing the right to fly above FL 280, running out of the good stuff on the runway in YYZ ( remember, they had to get towed off said runway ), a touch and go in the weeds in Calgary and walking away to catch a flight to YVR. those cats had more than 9 lives and they used then up all in one shot. All of the above hapened in less than 48 months...

Executives wants what exactlly ? warm bodies or better still warm bodies that have experience and proven they can and have used it.

No pot stirring, just a very honest question with past history serving as THE template. Using your reasoning, to you really beleive aforementionned executives are that ill informed and cannot see past their mahogany bombers. Me thinks no, thus the question

[Big Pistons Forever]

Executives wants what exactlly ? warm bodies or better still warm bodies that have experience and proven they can and have used it.

Good airline executives want the warm bodies with experience (SouthWest, WestJet), less good airline executives just want warm bodies (pretty much any US Regional and any Air Canada future LCC). Airline investors are not smart enough to realize hiring experience saves money in the long run, they only see the short term upfront salary costs and want executives that will produce the short term savings realized with poor WAWCONS.

[Fanblade]

So, from inside info I am told there was language in TA1 that basically said for every widebody added to mainline, they(AC) can add 2 705s to "regional" and every narrowbody 1 705 to "regional", not Jazz, regional.

Nope. Not what I read in TA1.

Actually flyguy that is pretty close. The ratio of WB and NB to 705 is correct BUT they can only go to Jazz.

Sounds to good to be true? It is. The ASM ratio also changed and is domestically capped and includes tier 2 &3. International ASM's didn't count. So a widebody has relatively little change in ASM room. Jazz would have to park more aircraft than 705' recieved. Based on the fleet plan you could aquire 50 of them. (If they park 767's as the 787 arrive they cancel each other )However to do so would require a fleet reduction on top of competing for ASM's with other tier 2&3 companies.

Transboarder Scope is completely new.

That said now on top of the rumor Sky Service is going to reappear as AC LCC but another rumor around the Sky camp is they are going to be operating 705s in the future and they will also be operating out of Pearson sometime this year.

Nope. Your rumour is busted.[/quote]

Out of YYZ? Not under the current contract. Under TA1 no limitations on where they fly, or on who can be a tier 2 player.

I don't think your scope protection will be helping you anymore yycflyguy, given the government and their willingness to side with corporations.

The scope protection within TA1 is stronger than present.

And unless AC agrees to let TA1 go? Which I doubt as stated above. The likelihood is everyone will be living with TA1. Just like CUPE.

[yycflyguy]

And unless AC agrees to let TA1 go? Which I doubt as stated above. The likelihood is everyone will be living with TA1. Just like CUPE.

The comparisons between CUPE and ACPA are not similar.

ACPA was negotiating outside normal, formal bargaining window when TA1 was created. CUPE conducted formal negots.
ACPA MEC did NOT recommend it to the membership, CUPE did.
ACPA had a union revolt, recalling those responsible for the presentation and disconnect associated with TA1.
The new ACPA NC has attempted to rectify the short-comings and disconnect with WAWCON surveys. CUPE just re-voted on the same offer and their executive assured the company that it would pass a second vote.

Since all this nonsense started, the federal government and general public has started to realize where the problem lies... and it aint the unionized labour.

There is a LARGE percentage of pilots willing to down tools, set the park brake. There is another percentage willing to say "fahgetaboutit", pack their bags and live an ex-pat life where the compensation and career growth potential is better than life at AC.

[Fanblade]

Flyguy,


I would have to repeat myself to respond. It is almost on us anyway.

May I suggest the following. Go read the latest letter from the MEC. Read the sentence about not changing our position unless forced to do so. Ask yourself what that means.

Ask an LEC member what it means if not sure. Read the CUPE arbitration. Read Air Canada's complaint to the CIRB regarding CUPE and bargaining in bad faith.

Trust me. I am not a proponent of TA1. I was hired just over a year ago. TA1 sells out everyone below 320 CA. As well as Jazz. Every FO has a reduced formula for pay. EMJ only goes up because it wage shares with the 320. As a result all 320 goes down. Every RP reduced lower.

The only people who benefit reside in the top third of the list. The biggest winners are the 777 (grandfathered) and CAIL pension plan members.

[JZA]

TA1 sells out everyone below 320 CA.

... That's a matter of opinion, which everyone is of course entitled to. However I assure you the 900+ that chose to vote Yes to TA1 were not all 320 CA and above ...

[Fanblade]

TA1 sells out everyone below 320 CA.

... That's a matter of opinion, which everyone is of course entitled to. However I assure you the 900+ that chose to vote Yes to TA1 were not all 320 CA and above ...

Hmmm? Wow did you get a voting breakdown?

900 out of 3000. Roughly 1/3. 320 Ca and above? What do you know! Roughly 1/3.

Yes I get there will be exceptions.

Come on. It was said to my face I was sold out. New hires sold out. The actual wording? Thrown under the bus.

You guys will go down in infamy. You chose a direction not in the best interest of the profession. You chose for yourself. Imagine your wage today if your predecessors thought like you.

Why didn't you go further? You know 777 CA 500,000 per year but everyone else after $ 8.50 per hour?

[Rockie]

TA1 sells out everyone below 320 CA.

... That's a matter of opinion, which everyone is of course entitled to. However I assure you the 900+ that chose to vote Yes to TA1 were not all 320 CA and above ...

Hmmm? Wow did you get a voting breakdown?

900 out of 3000. Roughly 1/3. 320 Ca and above? What do you know! Roughly 1/3.

Yes I get there will be exceptions.

Come on. It was said to my face I was sold out. New hires sold out. The actual wording? Thrown under the bus.

You guys will go down in infamy. You chose a direction not in the best interest of the profession. You chose for yourself. Imagine your wage today if your predecessors thought like you.

Why didn't you go further? You know 777 CA 500,000 per year but everyone else after $ 8.50 per hour?

There's a valuable lesson here for every Air Canada pilot if they choose to think about it. Fanblade and every newhire since TA1 has every reason to be angry at how close we came to selling them out. Imagine if TA1 had actually passed? Imagine how divided this pilot group would have been and the outright justifiable hostility between the have's and have not's there would have been?

[Ah_yeah]

[quote="Rockie"
There's a valuable lesson here for every Air Canada pilot if they choose to think about it. Fanblade and every newhire since TA1 has every reason to be angry at how close we came to selling them out. Imagine if TA1 had actually passed? Imagine how divided this pilot group would have been and the outright justifiable hostility between the have's and have not's there would have been?[/quote]

100 percent correct Rockie. We have a lot of fences to mend, maybe more to come. TA 1 was a disgrace and self serving to the select few that had a hand in it's creation. If this profession has any hope of ascending from the crapper we need to fix the foundation.

[yycflyguy]

The Company completed tabling a comprehensive counter-proposal on Tuesday. Their counter-proposal is based on our current Collective Agreement however it includes many concessions, some of which attempt to strike at the heart of our careers and the piloting profession.

Ok, can we put the merits/distractions of TA1 to bed now please. It is not the direction that current negotiations are taking.