50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

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FriendlyBear
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by FriendlyBear »

To all my teal toned brethern and sisters:
You are on the verge of a historical and prescedent setting decision. I have the very best of faith that each of you will vote according to what you know is right. The power to change or atleast alter Canadian aviation rests in your hands and your vote. It really is something to see a company care enough about its pilots to invite them to discuss such a heavy issue before any concrete decisions are made. I believe that Westjet has a vey bright future ahead!
Oh, and before I forget... tell Greg to buy Q400's... they really are a profit generator!
Ciao
The Bear :bear:
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

Thanks, Bear. The slight tweak to your interpretation of events unfolding is that the monumental decision facing we WestJetters is what direction the company takes, not how it affects 'the profession'. It has been made clear that this is not a negotiation: there are no terms of employment to be renegotiated with respect to the new operation. I am not sure why we pilots were given the veto power, but should we vote it down, it is over. Gregg has made that clear, and I have no reason to doubt his sincerity.

No offence taken or given to posters on this forum from off property; ours is an operation that you have to be part of to get. Cheers, all.
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mikeecho
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by mikeecho »

yycflyguy wrote:It's great how positive WJ employees are towards their employer. Wish I had that where I work. However, there has never been a "dark and stormy night" at your company.... yet. With multiple aircraft types, multiple bases and multiple pay structures (work conditions), you have officially killed the culture that made it a success and should plan NOW for the day that your executives want the same out of your labour group like elsewhere. I am grateful for my forefathers who had the insight to protect the flying and WAWCON at my airline. Pilots always plan to cover their asses. Now is the time to protect WJ future asses.
Thankfully, you have no idea what the culture at WestJet is. As an 8 year AC employee, I didn't get it either beyond the fact that the people I knew at WS loved working there and that was enough to make me want to be a part of it.

On the outside, it looks like a bunch of hugs, high five's, kool-aid and profit share.

For those on the inside, its about hard work, trust, support (for everyone regardless of department... Imagine that!) and most importantly... Accountability. That's the culture that made WS a success. The high fives and profit share were just the icing on the cake.
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dhc2pilot
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by dhc2pilot »

Funny to watch the low cost want to become the major and the major want to become the low cost. We are all doomed. You can all bicker back and forth over why one airline is better then the other but when push comes to shove we are all pilots doing the same job and we are all screwed!
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hnl
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by hnl »

mikeecho wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:It's great how positive WJ employees are towards their employer. Wish I had that where I work. However, there has never been a "dark and stormy night" at your company.... yet. With multiple aircraft types, multiple bases and multiple pay structures (work conditions), you have officially killed the culture that made it a success and should plan NOW for the day that your executives want the same out of your labour group like elsewhere. I am grateful for my forefathers who had the insight to protect the flying and WAWCON at my airline. Pilots always plan to cover their asses. Now is the time to protect WJ future asses.
Thankfully, you have no idea what the culture at WestJet is. As an 8 year AC employee, I didn't get it either beyond the fact that the people I knew at WS loved working there and that was enough to make me want to be a part of it.

On the outside, it looks like a bunch of hugs, high five's, kool-aid and profit share.

For those on the inside, its about hard work, trust, support (for everyone regardless of department... Imagine that!) and most importantly... Accountability. That's the culture that made WS a success. The high fives and profit share were just the icing on the cake.
I've been in this business for 38 years. Does anyone remember "Wardair"? When I hear about culture,kool aid etc that invades WJ I remember the same was at WD. It was an airline referred to as a "Legend". No one was better. The slogan was "52 in 92" 52 airplanes by 1992. They were going to wipe AC off the map. They would always be the leader in Canadian aviation...and then overnight it was all gone.
When some here recommend you get "assurances and protections" I suggest you listen.
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Last edited by hnl on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rotten Apple #1
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

Respectfully, hnl, different story.
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hnl
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by hnl »

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:Respectfully, hnl, different story.
Respectfully, you just made my point totally clear.
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

Glad I could help.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by ZBBYLW »

I am not privy to the Westjet private forums but I have a few questions. Places like Kelowna, Comox, Saskatoon I would image would see a dramatic shift to Q400s for everything but flights to Mexico. What would be in place for the "Ports" that are set up in those cities/towns? Would they be SOL or will WS try and accommodate them?
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Westbeach
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Westbeach »

YLW, YQQ, YXX etc are all decent runs that can justify a NG- at times - naturally you are going to have certain times of day, week, month, year that a ng would not be ideal so the idea would be to have the q4 do those off peak runs. Have you ever been on a YYC-YLW flight in the summer any time of the day or week? One flight pays for the other, its insane. There would be no q4 stealing ng flying. q4's would be put on some new regional routes and replace ng's on certain flight numbers and with that a ng is now available to do a yyc-las or yyz-fll where the flights are pretty darn full and could use another flight that day, again, during certain times.

I can not wait for the day we pull a ng off the 2100 yyz-yow flight and send on an additional yyz-las redeye and have it almost full both ways. That's the plan here, not to come up with ridiculous city pairs with 15 pax on them but to free up ng for more popular routes and to bring those folks from YXJ,YYE, YQL, YBR, YTS etc into the network and offer vacations to PVR that are not $1014 round trip (aircanada 1 month out, 7 day stay, YXJ-YVR-YYZ-PVR). Not trying to paint a/c in a bad light, it is just a potential vacation market that WJ vacations could look at building and you and I know that is a pain in the as* routing and cost for the city pair.

The idea about the feeder/regional, whatever you want to call it, is more than justified and required for growth and to give the public options. I see the concern with "below average" wages, 100%, however you need to factor in profit share, ESP (I believe the regional standard is 5% but could be wrong, the startup would be 10%) and add this into your annual earnings. It would not be forever either, after the first agreement runs its course I am sure the pilot group, westjet, and the regional would be in a far better position to come closer to and eventually exceeding the standard just like wj did in the beginning. Keep in mind were not starting with 40 planes, that is an end goal so its tough to get balls deep in the beginning with 3 -5 to start.

Like the others, this is the last post, this can go on for the next 18 months until it (hopefully) gets airborne. To those on the outside looking in with legit concerns, be rest assured your fellow pilots are 100 percent looking out for your best interests, they really are, but they still need to keep that in line with the plan to success of the bigger picture. Things are never perfect, especially in the beginning but you need to start somewhere and they are going to ensure that it is done in the best way possible.

To all those that are stuck in a dark shallow world full of envy and hate and cant live with the fact that the green may actually be greener on the other side but dont have the balls or skill to do anything about it please do us all a favor and go play call of duty or something and leave this topic and forum to those who have legit concerns, ideas, something constructive to say, and live in a realistic world.

Cheers!
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complexintentions
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by complexintentions »

There would be no q4 stealing ng flying.
If you think that a smaller, more efficient type won't transfer some - I would venture, a lot, given the relatively small Canadian market - of the current flying you must be dreaming. The efficiencies of the Q400 are the whole reason for the acquisition and it's not like there will be any contractual reason not to give that flying away. You can't claim to have a business-savvy company and then not recognize this.

It's a brilliant move, offloading the responsibility of the decision onto the pilots. If you vote yes - management is super-duper for their inclusiveness. If you vote no - it's the pilots fault. Win-win.

Of course the pilots will vote yes. Every captain, anyway.
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Donald
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Donald »

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:I am not sure why we pilots were given the veto power, but should we vote it down, it is over. Gregg has made that clear, and I have no reason to doubt his sincerity.
As an outsider, do I understand your choice correctly?

Vote yes: Regional plan (including the tentative wawcon) gets the pilot group's support, everyone looks forward to continued expansion, the company grows, etc etc.

Vote no: Regional is cancelled, no company expansion, things stagnate.

IE this is not a vote about the wawcon, but whether or not to have a regional operation?
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

You are correct Donald.
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TheStig
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by TheStig »

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:Thanks, Bear. The slight tweak to your interpretation of events unfolding is that the monumental decision facing we WestJetters is what direction the company takes, not how it affects 'the profession'. It has been made clear that this is not a negotiation: there are no terms of employment to be renegotiated with respect to the new operation.
This is the same logic that resulted in Sky Regional. At least you're being given a choice, not a vaguely worded survey...
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ZBBYLW
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by ZBBYLW »

Westbeach wrote:YLW, YQQ, YXX etc are all decent runs that can justify a NG- at times - naturally you are going to have certain times of day, week, month, year that a ng would not be ideal so the idea would be to have the q4 do those off peak runs. Have you ever been on a YYC-YLW flight in the summer any time of the day or week? One flight pays for the other, its insane.
I admit that I have never been on WS on a YYC-YLW flight but have flown WS from YVR about 5 times or so. What I noticed is only 30/40 (one time as low as 5) passengers actually got off in Kelowna. Never having flown this route with WS in the summer though so you are right I am just shooting from my hip. To me it just seems more sensible to sell 72 seats YYC-YLW then 72 back rather than have that fluctuate depending on how many people buy the YYC-YVR tickets. Do they cap the amount of tickets you can buy on certain segments?
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Jastapilot
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Jastapilot »

complexintentions wrote:
There would be no q4 stealing ng flying.
If you think that a smaller, more efficient type won't transfer some - I would venture, a lot, given the relatively small Canadian market - of the current flying you must be dreaming. The efficiencies of the Q400 are the whole reason for the acquisition and it's not like there will be any contractual reason not to give that flying away. You can't claim to have a business-savvy company and then not recognize this.

It's a brilliant move, offloading the responsibility of the decision onto the pilots. If you vote yes - management is super-duper for their inclusiveness. If you vote no - it's the pilots fault. Win-win.

Of course the pilots will vote yes. Every captain, anyway.
he should have said no regional flight will steal block hours from the NG operation. Our block hours will be preserved, and when those NG's are freed from the BS yyc-yeg, YYZ-YOW, etc type flying, they'll be put on the type of flying they were designed for.
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CanadaEH
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by CanadaEH »

I'm pretty sure you'll see some current 737 operated routes and/or cities moved to Q400's. Anything that is transferred to a Q400 from 737 will free up a 737 to fly elsewhere (which is what I think you guys are getting at?).
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Localizer »

ZBBYLW, the Q400 is an amazing machine .. fast for a turboprop, 74 seats, and burns less then half the fuel of a 37NG per hour. Sadly the WJ pilots think they see their future growth .. I see their future getting smaller, atleast in Canada and northern USA destinations.

Will WJ see oversea's destinations in the future? Maybe .. are they following the model they originally set out with that makes Southwest so bullet proof and profitable? No. That's what would concern me as an investor in that airline .. Investing close to a billion dollars to set up a regional airline is a big gamble.

G'luck .. to the future WJ Q400 pilots. Low pay, expensive city, half the opportunities of your fellow "Westjetter's" .. Gotta love the "Westjetatude".
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palm90
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by palm90 »

I think you should be worrying about your own company there bud. My friends there are looking to jump off the Titanic called Jazz.
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by The Hammer »

Jastapilot wrote:
complexintentions wrote:
There would be no q4 stealing ng flying.
If you think that a smaller, more efficient type won't transfer some - I would venture, a lot, given the relatively small Canadian market - of the current flying you must be dreaming. The efficiencies of the Q400 are the whole reason for the acquisition and it's not like there will be any contractual reason not to give that flying away. You can't claim to have a business-savvy company and then not recognize this.

It's a brilliant move, offloading the responsibility of the decision onto the pilots. If you vote yes - management is super-duper for their inclusiveness. If you vote no - it's the pilots fault. Win-win.

Of course the pilots will vote yes. Every captain, anyway.
he should have said no regional flight will steal block hours from the NG operation. Our block hours will be preserved, and when those NG's are freed from the BS yyc-yeg, YYZ-YOW, etc type flying, they'll be put on the type of flying they were designed for.
I would get that in writing as your oldest NG is now 11 years old and many of them (approx 50%) are leased aircraft (rates mostly likely dependent on year of delivery). Your statement matches what Mapleflot pilots were told about DC-9 flying when the air Ontario, etc dash-8's showed up in YSB, YYB, etc in 1986.

Simple things like same benefits contrib. 30% vs 50% and 10% vs 20% ESP are small company savings that tend to be a festering wound over time with employee groups and highlight 2nd class feelings. It makes simple, easy comparisons that even a pilot can figure out. Pilot's seem to accept the smaller airplane = smaller cheque mentality better than the previously mentioned savings even if the total renumeration package is the same cost to the company. Why I do not know?

Hopefully this is just a negotiating tactic by mgmt.
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CanadaEH
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by CanadaEH »

I don't think anyone outside of Westjet gets that the culture and Management at WestJet is different from any current or any previous airline. To lie, cheat, or somewhat mislead the current employee workforce would be suicidal. There is no hidden agenda - it's all pretty straight forward and upfront with our Executive. They know that their careers depend on being open and honest.

There are two votes: one for all of the employees (regional proposal) and one for the pilots (modified MOA).

The Hammer, WestJet's fleet is 1/3 owned, 1/3 financed, and 1/3 leased. Not "50%" as you say.
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by whiteguy »

CanadaEH wrote:I'm pretty sure you'll see some current 737 operated routes and/or cities moved to Q400's. Anything that is transferred to a Q400 from 737 will free up a 737 to fly elsewhere (which is what I think you guys are getting at?).
Or it frees them up to be returned to the lessor. Something to think about with about 15 of the older aircraft leases set to expire over the next 2 or 3 years.
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Legacy »

whiteguy wrote:
CanadaEH wrote:I'm pretty sure you'll see some current 737 operated routes and/or cities moved to Q400's. Anything that is transferred to a Q400 from 737 will free up a 737 to fly elsewhere (which is what I think you guys are getting at?).
Or it frees them up to be returned to the lessor. Something to think about with about 15 of the older aircraft leases set to expire over the next 2 or 3 years.
As it stands right now, many pilots (ame's) expect some of those leased airplanes to go back. In fact I KNOW some will. But with this regional venture we may retain some of those. A lot better chance of retaining them anyway. And if we dont retain them, they were going back anyway
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by J Roc »

The Hammer wrote:
I would get that in writing as your oldest NG is now 11 years old and many of them (approx 50%) are leased aircraft (rates mostly likely dependent on year of delivery). Your statement matches what Mapleflot pilots were told about DC-9 flying when the air Ontario, etc dash-8's showed up in YSB, YYB, etc in 1986.

Simple things like same benefits contrib. 30% vs 50% and 10% vs 20% ESP are small company savings that tend to be a festering wound over time with employee groups and highlight 2nd class feelings. It makes simple, easy comparisons that even a pilot can figure out. Pilot's seem to accept the smaller airplane = smaller cheque mentality better than the previously mentioned savings even if the total renumeration package is the same cost to the company. Why I do not know?

Hopefully this is just a negotiating tactic by mgmt.
We did get it in writing, the MOA includes a guaranteed block hour for the 37's. The 37's will be redeployed to additional markets that will be stimulated by feed from the regional side.

I'll be honest, I was extremely sceptical of the 80% of market median and benefit contributions as well. But, after attending the town hall meeting and talking to our EVP's I'm actually pretty confident that the benefits package will be industry leading and in NO way lowering the bar. The 80% is actually a minimum and could be as high as 100%, and when you factor in the benefits that the regional employees will receive then you'll be hard pressed to find a regional airline that could compete. And people have to remember, you'll be working on the regional aircraft NOT the 37's, so obviously the compensation package will be less. But you'll have flow through opportunity that NO other airline offers, you'll celebrate in our successes in the form of profit share, you'll have a pilot group and pilot association on your side that has a trusting and honest working relationship with WJ executives (I've witnessed that firsthand!), you'll have a winning product on your side that'll be profitable for years to come (job security), and I can go on for hours. These are things that you can not but a dollar value on and I hope people would see that.

I usually don't get wrapped up in the warm fuzzy westjetness or buy into some of the fluff, but guys, if you actually had the privilege of being at one of these town hall meetings...WOW! That's all I can say. I was extremely inspired at the dialogue that took place between management and our pilot group. The open and honest questions from our pilot group. The open and honest responses from Gregg and his team. It was ground breaking and also something that you'll never find in another airline. Priceless!!

It sure is easy to focus on one number, i was guilty of that as well, but it truly is flawed thinking.

I think Gregg said it best when he said, we could go down the road of a CPA, that would be cheaper for us as a company but we decided to do the right thing, spend more money, do this ourselves and make it possible.

That had me thinking about CPA's as well, where I believe my thinking might have been flawed. I actually thought a CPA would have been the smart decision and I guess in a economics stand point it was, but....

Wouldn't contracting the lowest priced CPA lower the bar more than this arrangement? Don't most tier 3 companies involved in CPA's actually win these contracts by lowering costs on the backs of their employees?? I could be wrong, but aren't we raising the standard by creating this product ourselves?
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Last edited by J Roc on Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

Post by Bede »

whiteguy wrote:
CanadaEH wrote:I'm pretty sure you'll see some current 737 operated routes and/or cities moved to Q400's. Anything that is transferred to a Q400 from 737 will free up a 737 to fly elsewhere (which is what I think you guys are getting at?).
Or it frees them up to be returned to the lessor. Something to think about with about 15 of the older aircraft leases set to expire over the next 2 or 3 years.
I think everyone knows these tails will be returned as the newer planes come. Some flying will go to the regional. Those tails will be redeployed to better routes.
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