50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

[TKTguy]

Congrats Westjet. I think this a brilliant move. I'm wondering will the ground staff at new bases be mainline or regional employees? I'm coming up on 25 years now with Jazz and would love to look for other options. It would be great to go to work and get a little warm and fuzzy feeling for my employer for a change.

[flyguy2b]

Does anyone think that there is potential for Westjet to buy Porter in order to create this regional airline it seems that if they want this up and running by 2013 its going to be hard to find the crew and the aircraft for this expansion.

[Legacy]

Does anyone think that there is potential for Westjet to buy Porter in order to create this regional airline it seems that if they want this up and running by 2013 its going to be hard to find the crew and the aircraft for this expansion.

I am sure there is always potential. Semms like the pilot consensus is we hope we dont even touch them with a 9 foot pole. IF we did I hope the pilots get treated like any new employee and starts at the bottom. I am sure the company will do everything to make sure the CURRENT employees are taken care of.

[Stoptheworld]

I have no skin in this game as I am an outside observer. Other than hoping that we get increased service in YQL, I really don't have anything at stake.

That having been said, the move to the Q400 will undoubtedly be positive for WS in general. It will open a great number of new markets for them. Although I really am curious about the 2 billion market potential, However, I recall and acquaintance of mine, who is a right seater at WS told me, albeit a couple years ago, that WS had only touched 20% of the total market for the 37 according to the route planning people. (That is the figure I recall. ) That would mean that there is still a huge potential for growth there.

It would seem to me that it would be logical to first replace the NG or supplement it on routes that are already in the system. i.e. the triangle, Fort Mac, Grande Prairie, Penticton before moving on to new markets like Lethbridge You would be truly naive to believe that NG growth would not slow substantially if not retrench. Of course, the argument can be made that it frees up fins for the above mentioned growth that may be available. Especially into those new code-share hubs. If that growth potential is still there, why not continue with the formula that has been successful to date? Also, how are the ALPA boys at DL and AA going to feel about that? Especially AA where pilots will be asked to make loads of concessions due to Chapter 11.

Lot's of questions to consider. One thing that I am pretty sure of is that AC will, in every respect, be completely unable to make an annual profit ever again (Oh, please don't flame me too much )

Good luck, whatever path is chosen

[DaveP]

I think the reception at the town halls was getting better and better and I've been to 3. The vote will tell.
As for the forums they really haven't exposed anything we don't know or haven't heard or seen before (yet) so we will try and do the best we can for the set up.

Here is to a profitable job producing venture!

Dave.

[stickontheice]

I'm a FO at WJ and I'm voting YES to the MOA. My understanding is that we are voting on the idea of creating this Regional airline in order to stimulate growth to the overall company. The Executives have never done anything to mislead us, lie to us, or steer us in the wrong direction. We have a great culture and great people to ensure that the values are past down.

Yes, I'm nervous about possibly buying Porter as I have never really seen Deluce as a straight shooter in watching and reading several interviews over the years. But I'm sure the men and women there are first class. IF we did something like that I know we'd be adding good values and experience to our own.

I'm looking forward to what promises to be a very dynamic year at WJ. Regional, Ports, and new pilot agreement are all to sure bring some interesting twists and turns to our 16th year. I'm voting YES and I'm hoping that my colleagues do too.

[yycflyguy]

Best of luck! I truly hope the confidence in your management wont be betrayed in the future.

With a regional feeder you are destined to have the same issues that Legacy airlines face.

1. Equipment bidding issues
2. Flow through/Flow back issues
3. Base rivalries and preferred flying structures
4. Stagnation
5. Increased CASM due to multiple types
6. Increased training costs
7. Animosity between different pay scales/compensation

Not wishing any of that on you. Just the facts of multi-type airlines. Be fun to re-visit this in a couple of years and see if any of these issues come up.

[Localizer]

I think you should be worrying about your own company there bud. My friends there are looking to jump off the Titanic called Jazz.

Jazz? Titanic? .. Air Canada would be the Titanic .. Jazz is just a lifeboat strapped to the side of the sinking ship. Jazz is a very profitable company .. as long as the main customer stays afloat. I'm sure Jazz will still have a future regardless of what happens with Air Canada .. Jazz still has infastructure, all they require is a reservation system and they could potentially be a stand alone in short order. Thanks to Air Canada, Jazz is a brand name and known by travellers.

I'm 100% in favour of WJ starting up a regional .. I just don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about the way its going to happen. Your going to create a "second class Westjetter" if you will .. that will cause animosity amongst the group. You're offering lower then standard pay, your going to charge them 50% on benefits, then top it off with only half the contribution level of their peers.

Could all that change over time? Sure, but I thought Westjetter's considered themselves all equals and owners. That corporate culture is all but out the window with the introduction of the "second class Westjetter". Should a Q400 pilot make the same as a 737 driver? No .. i'm not saying that .. but should they make the same as the other 400 drivers in the industry? Yes.

Anything less is criminal.

[prop2jet]

Jazz? Titanic? .. Air Canada would be the Titanic .. Jazz is just a lifeboat strapped to the side of the sinking ship. Jazz is a very profitable company .. as long as the main customer stays afloat. I'm sure Jazz will still have a future regardless of what happens with Air Canada .. Jazz still has infastructure, all they require is a reservation system and they could potentially be a stand alone in short order. Thanks to Air Canada, Jazz is a brand name and known by travellers.

I would agree with you regards the Titanic Statement... not so sure about the lifeboat strategy. The current relationship is symbiotic. One cannot completely function without the other which is perhaps why AC is so intent on expanding the tier II to SkyRegional and perhaps later to others. The increased competition will net them a lower cost.

If the relationship were more of a services agreement rather than a CPA, perhaps things could be different at Jazz. However I would not buy too much into the belief that Jazz can survive on it's own without any tie to AC. Remember Atalantic Coast Airlines in the U.S.? Indipendence Air did not last too long...

As for the brand name... well I think more people are familiar with AIR CANADA Jazz. If you just said JAZZ, I think you would get some blank looks.

[CanadaEH]

Westjet already has people on different salary bands - a pilot makes more than a mechanic who makes more than a CSA. A EVP makes more than a Director who makes more than a Manager. Different roles and different functions. The culture of Westjet is strong regardless of pay - the culture is based on commitment, inclusiveness, and attitude. I don't see that changing with WJE. Sure, the pay will be different in some cases but that same culture of commitment, inclusiveness, and attitude will remain the same.

[J Roc]

I'm 100% in favour of WJ starting up a regional .. I just don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about the way its going to happen. Your going to create a "second class Westjetter" if you will .. that will cause animosity amongst the group. You're offering lower then standard pay, your going to charge them 50% on benefits, then top it off with only half the contribution level of their peers.

Could all that change over time? Sure, but I thought Westjetter's considered themselves all equals and owners. That corporate culture is all but out the window with the introduction of the "second class Westjetter". Should a Q400 pilot make the same as a 737 driver? No .. i'm not saying that .. but should they make the same as the other 400 drivers in the industry? Yes.

Anything less is criminal.

They will make fair industry wages, once this thing gets off the ground and our WJPA negotiate on their behalf. And NO one can deny that the WJPA has done GREAT work in the past. I'm sure they'll continue that trend in the future. So lets get this thing off the ground first.

And I think negotiations start with us calling them equals and not "second class citizens"...I think that's a good starting point. Don't you??

Patience lads, great things will come in due time.

[Localizer]

Prop2jet, I agree one needs the other .. its just my personal opinion that Jazz could make it on its own if push came to shove. Also, the lifeboat comment had no real meaning .. just trying to point out that we're part of the ship.

CanadaEh, I thought Q400 drivers were pilots? Maybe you could clarify where they sit on your salary band list? Would they be somewhere between AME and CSA? And what would you categorize them as??

J-Roc, talk is cheap my friend. We can call them equals or whatever you'd like but noboday can predict the future, all we can do is see the reality .. and currently that reality is the "second class Westjetter". The only way my opinion (and a lot of other opinions) could really change is if the benefits were the same and the contribution level was the same. Unfortunately it seems like WJ pilots are more concerned about getting the stock price up then the wawcon of their regional airline. I guess that just coincides with the rest of this industry .. all for one and none for all!

[Squid]

So I have to ask loc,
Are the wages and working conditions the same between you and air Canada mainline, do you have the same benefits and pass travel (now) or after retirement or better yet how are the conditions between you and sky regional who btw applied for the airbus certificate. Better keep an eye on our own backyard. Just sayin'

Laughable at best.

[yycflyguy]

So I have to ask loc,
Are the wages and working conditions the same between you and air Canada mainline, do you have the same benefits and pass travel (now) or after retirement or better yet how are the conditions between you and sky regional who btw applied for the airbus certificate. Better keep an eye on our own backyard. Just sayin'

Laughable at best.

I think that's the point. Might you be setting yourself up for this kind of relationship in the future?

Better make sure that the scope and and guarantees are in place before the game of whipsawing starts in your own backyard. If management truly wants a peaceful future they will agree to any firewalls implemented now. Try to protect the flying after the fact and you're screwed brother!

[midwingcrisis]

WestJet emphasizes that it isn’t interested in acquiring Toronto-based Porter Airlines Inc., which operates 26 Q400s. But to allay the fears of WestJet pilots who might be worried about their future, management has offered job security to pilots flying “mainline” Boeing 737s.

Even if WestJet were to buy Porter, WestJet is pledging to first protect the jobs of its own pilots before allowing any Porter pilots to be promoted to flying 737s.




http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... nt=2310910

[Localizer]

So I have to ask loc,
Are the wages and working conditions the same between you and air Canada mainline, do you have the same benefits and pass travel (now) or after retirement or better yet how are the conditions between you and sky regional who btw applied for the airbus certificate. Better keep an eye on our own backyard. Just sayin'

Laughable at best.

Laughable is right .. Wages .. I believe I already said a Q400 driver doesn't need to make 37 wages. Working conditions .. some would argue that the working conditions at Jazz are better then Air Canada. We have commuting policy, we have decent reserve rules, although some at Jazz would argue that, they are still better then the AC reserve rules. Benefits are amazing .. but we also pay for them, we're suppose to be around the 25% mark for our share. We have a DB penion .. just like the big boys at AC, but ours is better funded.

SkyRegional? .. Really? You're comparing Jazz to SR? Give your head a shake. I have no idea what your talking about in regards to the bus certificate. That might have something to do with the AC low cost venture .. maybe that question could be answered by Yycflyguy.

I'm just a pilot .. I don't run companies .. I fly airplanes. If pilots could just focus on that aspect and stop trying to be a big wheel in the corporate world, we all might be better off. Problem is .. we can't .. maybe we're too smart for our own good? Who knows, but we like to think of ourselves as equals with the corporate office, but the corporate office has other ideas and we're just to blind to realize that.

I like to work with reality .. and the reality is WJ pilots have been given the "power" to decide on the fate of your future regional airline, and as pilots you'd think there's an interested in making it as good of a place to work as what you currently enjoy. I don't see you doing that .. I see a bit of a sell out situation. I'm not saying vote it down .. rather try and work with management to see a more equal platform, oppose to "negotiating" for it later (which is harder to do). Instead the future pilots of this carrier will have to "hope" that their "brothers" at the mainline can negotiate in their best interest later on. That would be the same as Jazz pilots allowing ACPA to negotiate for us .. I wouldn't hold my breath. No disrespect .. but if comes down to you or them, who's going to be on the losing end?

[DaveP]

Hi guys,

I think the big difference here is it's NOT them against us. It never has been here.
I'm not sure what or why everyone seems to be focused on that we have negotiated all the terms. The fact of the matter is we haven't.

Again this is a vote from the employees to accept the idea. (the MOA)
Once that is done then we have a lot of work to do such as obtaining the OC, the aircraft procurement process, setting up hiring guidelines, maintenance, buying a simulator, negotiating the working conditions including scheduling and pay, holidays, travel etc.

Pretty exciting. I can't underscore enough that many of us came from the traditional systems and have learned a lot. We don't have to set up fences etc. Not if you do it right.

This regional will have a lot of the perks and benefits such as flica, travel, no seniority for month to month bidding etc...

I think we really have a great opportunity here.

To the nay sayers - you motivate us more!

Cheers!

[HolyShitBatman!]

Westjet already has people on different salary bands - a pilot makes more than a mechanic who makes more than a CSA. A EVP makes more than a Director who makes more than a Manager. Different roles and different functions. The culture of Westjet is strong regardless of pay - the culture is based on commitment, inclusiveness, and attitude. I don't see that changing with WJE. Sure, the pay will be different in some cases but that same culture of commitment, inclusiveness, and attitude will remain the same.

BINGO!! I still find it funny that to this day people still don't get the WestJet culture.

[JetPro]

A couple of questions for the WestJetters.

I noticed in the G and M article that only the pilots in WestJet Lite are being asked to work for less than industry standard wages. What about the others? Flight attendants, rampies, AME's, agents?

If not, that begs the question: why are the professional staff being asked to work for sub par wages and not the non-professional staff? If the requirement to get the costs low and better than competitive from the outset, shouldn't the other costs centres (ie labour) also work for a discount?

Or is the fact the pilots should work for less than industry standard a tacit acknowledgement that pilots are overpaid?

[rigpiggy]

considering Westjet is not ALPA, what makes you think "new hires" would get "date of hire" from a previous company

[RussD]

Hi guys,

I think the big difference here is it's NOT them against us. It never has been here.

But it will be Dave, and a lot of the Westjetters I know are pretty uncomfy about it. A lot of these folks (top drawer people IMHO) ran away from a multiple entity airline group when it became clear to them that the unstoppable competition for a share of the Corporate spoils fractured any hope of a sense of unity. It is virtually inevitable that when you have two separate groups that comprise a single individual entity there will be competition for an advantage within the host. That reality defines life right down to the molecular level.

In my view the terms of employment are of a secondary issue to the Corporate structure that is being considered. It's monumentally easier to change the wages and working condition vs changing the Corporate structure after the fact. From an outsiders point of view (and I admit I am , although I share this with more than a few from your shop) this type of structure is totally counter culture from what WJ always professed to be and touted as it's source of success. The words "Mainline" and "Feeder" have already entered into the WJ lexicon. How freaking sad is that. Take a close look at the Alaskan Group. The relationship between their two pilot groups is toxic. For the most part they manage to keep it under the radar, but it can be characterized with words like mutual fear, loathing and disdain.

I can't help but feel WJ is emulating the worst possible industry practice that will inevitably lead to the same kind of AC/ACR , CAIL/CRA labor debacles, when WJ has been, and can be so much better. Just saying you're Westjetters and we'll be different, won't make it so,,can't make it so. However, you folks will do what you will do. The road you're contemplating, (two pilot groups one Company) is not the only choice. The fact that it is touted as such has set many antennae a quiver (as it should). I hope you seek it out and find that better choice.

Respectfully (really)

RD

[Rotten Apple #1]

RussD, it is going to be hard for you and WestJetters to have an effective conversation. Three times you capitalize the word 'Corporate' and you also capitalize the word 'Company', where we would never ever do so. Period. End of story.

Are you a strong leftist, a trade unionist, or a functionary in a large bureaucratic organization? (meant part tongue in cheek, part half serious).

Sincerely,

your most grateful interlocutor,

Rotten Apple #1

[Rotten Apple #1]

Not being picky, just honest. This:

The words "Mainline" and "Feeder" have already entered into the WJ lexicon. How freaking sad is that.

seems a tad overly dramatic for my taste.

[Rotten Apple #1]

I can't help but feel WJ is emulating the worst possible industry practice that will inevitably lead to the same kind of AC/ACR , CAIL/CRA labor debacles, when WJ has been, and can be so much better.

Okay. That's a big sentence. "Inevitably"? Don't you think that's a little authoritative? What our your credentials, considering this is a mostly anonymous forum?

And besides being an attempt at some kind of false praise, what could you possibly know about WestJet being "so much better"?

[Bede]

It is virtually inevitable that when you have two separate groups that comprise a single individual entity there will be competition for an advantage within the host. That reality defines life right down to the molecular level.

To build on your analogy inspired by molecular biology, our relationship will be symbiotic.

I think the worst thing would have been the company going the route of a CPA. This arrangement will be a nice compromise between a CPA and an in house fleet.

The difference between us and previous airlines is that most of us don't have a "me first" attitude. All the concerns that posters on this forums have raised have been raised by our own pilots at the townhall meetings with the executive. We will make this work.

I think it's best if we all wait until the airline is up and running and then we can all reconvene on this forum and the new regional employees can give their first hand accounts on working for the airline.