what is going to happen if WJ does the regional thing?

[black metal]

Can't help but wonder what is going to happen if westjet goes through with their regional and the amount of people they will have to hire and all the pilots bonded to go and what will happen to bond amounts?

[ajet32]

They don't bond pilots now , why would they start ?

[co-joe]

Not the most clearly worded question. Not really interested in your question so I'll answer one of my own that I made up from yours.

What will happen is that they will go about it the right way buying one aircraft that can "do it all" in different variants keeping fleet commonality. They will start by only hiring highly experienced captains and focus on making money from day one. They will only fly profitable routes and give good service and good on time performance with a focus on being a low cost alternative.

Inevitably they will make money doing it, buy more planes as demand builds, then and only then will they hire FO's but they will want significant time in the same or similar type of aircraft. Pay will be on the low side to start but will go up to a decent wage competitive with industry partially based on profit sharing or ESP or something like that.

They may use the regional as a carrot dangle to entice people to "mainline", and will no doubt have no trouble whatsoever filling groundschools. Canadian Regional did leave a void and so far no one has filled it entirely so my guess, they could make it happen and likely will do so. I wish them luck. They will mostly be competing with Greyhound at first and the tier 3's like CMA to some extent.

[black metal]

Sorry typo!! I know WJ does not bond... What will happen to all those bonded to other companies who have to make a choice to leave for a future and pay out bonds? And what will companies doe to keep peop le?

[Raybanman]

People will pay the bonds to leave, or stay until the bond is up. Those are really the only choices you have in the case of a bona-fide bond. A promisary note is a different matter. My (admittedly limited) experience with companies that bond, is that they will do nothing other than possibly increasing the bond amount/terms for their next set of pilots. If they had some magic enticement in their pockets to make their company more attractive to pilots, they wouldn't need to bond. IMHO.

[CID]

I'm kind of conflicted on Westjet's upcoming plan. On one hand, a little competition is healthy. On the other, this sort of competition destroys the smaller operators.

Besides introducing the smaller regional airplanes, Westjet is expanding their seasonal schedule, going to northern destinations during the lucrative summer months. Not a big deal if they weren't using predatory pricing reminiscent of Air Canada a few years back.

In a nutshell, Air Canada emerged from privatization debt free and asset rich as the government zeroed their debt and basically gave them all the airplanes, buildings and other infrastructure. Air Canada quickly blew it all trying to kill all of the competition by offering seats below cost, increasing frequency and infiltrating other established markets. The result? "Scorched Earth". They decimated the industry. Some of the airlines they put out of business left some communities without coverage as they receded into bankruptcy.

So is Westjet going down this path? It's one thing to go head to head with Air Canada and quite another to attack the smaller regional airlines in unique markets.

[Liquid Charlie]

I have not seen a proposed structure - will it be a contract and fee for departure or are they planning to have it all one big happy family - usually when there is a talk of a "feeder" it is only being created to cut costs and pilot salaries are a big part of that - I think this is a step closer for westjet to become a "real" airline - they have been riding the crest for a long time and were able to enter the market when the national carriers were crippled largely due to government interference - their timing was right - their model was right (although like most "experienced" travelers hate to fly them) and they opened up, well lets say they bested grey hound but I'm rambling -- they want to attack those points where it is not profitable to run a 73 well the down side of this is there will be several of these places losing jet service, so as mentioned above "a real airline" meaning that until they are tested with a little financial hardship they have not earned that status in my eyes.

For pilots -- I doubt if there will be a flow through agreement and I suspect this is they way of introducing a "B" scale, salaries have already been established for the Q-400 why would wj pay more - but hey -- i've been wrong before

[Raybanman]

I have not seen a proposed structure - will it be a contract and fee for departure or are they planning to have it all one big happy family - usually when there is a talk of a "feeder" it is only being created to cut costs and pilot salaries are a big part of that - I think this is a step closer for westjet to become a "real" airline - they have been riding the crest for a long time and were able to enter the market when the national carriers were crippled largely due to government interference - their timing was right - their model was right (although like most "experienced" travelers hate to fly them) and they opened up, well lets say they bested grey hound but I'm rambling -- they want to attack those points where it is not profitable to run a 73 well the down side of this is there will be several of these places losing jet service, so as mentioned above "a real airline" meaning that until they are tested with a little financial hardship they have not earned that status in my eyes.

For pilots -- I doubt if there will be a flow through agreement and I suspect this is they way of introducing a "B" scale, salaries have already been established for the Q-400 why would wj pay more - but hey -- i've been wrong before

Hey LC, If you have a look in the WestJet forums on here, it is all laid out. There is flow through, and flow back as well. As for salaries, there is nothing set in stone yet.

[Liquid Charlie]

cool stuff - it will be interesting to see the process at work -- it's actually nice to see that maybe someone will do it right for a change - it will keep the association busy brokering the fine points -- it's also a way to keep pilots working since there will be no furloughs because of route and equipment changes --

[yak8]

Porter will change owner.
And WJ will be regional overnight.
Insn't what's Deluce is all about ?

[twistedoldwrench]

As the boomers keep retirng the challange of finding qualified experienced people in the maintenance departments of the smaller operators (already a challange) will only get worse from here on in. The old attitude of just hire more engineers doesn't work so well anymore. Now add to that an outfit like WJ starting up a regional division---- I think a lot of smaller operators are going to really be hurting to find people to work on their equipment.

[trey kule]

It seems people are under the impression that this will cause huge labor shortages of experienced people. I dont think there is a whole new huge market of customers out there. WJ is targeting the custormers of its competition. Maybe a blip then during start up,but the slots will eventually be filled by the layoffs from other companies.

WJ needs this new structure, as they have a definite problem in providing customers with tickets for a full routing. They could have done some kind of an agreement but the spin off seems like a good idea.

It will be interesting to see how the load factors work out during after the start upl

[hnl]

.

In a nutshell, Air Canada emerged from privatization debt free and asset rich as the government zeroed their debt and basically gave them all the airplanes, buildings and other infrastructure. Air Canada quickly blew it all trying to kill all of the competition by offering seats below cost, increasing frequency and infiltrating other established markets. The result? "Scorched Earth". They decimated the industry. Some of the airlines they put out of business left some communities without coverage as they receded into bankruptcy.

.

Ya right....

[CID]

hnl, were you not aware of this?

[Gino Under]

Already talk of "B" scale for newbies. Second class pilots. Not to mention the suggestion of abandoning the "Westjet formula for success".
This does not sound good to me, and I've watched this nonsense for more than 35 years.
It looks like Canadian pilots have no idea of what they are worth let alone the importance of professional pride.
Gino Under

[squawk]

Gino Under

"B scale"!

So a Q400 driver should make the same as a 73 driver? What are we communists?

L Charlie
Many years ago you told me what a great airplane the 72 was to fly. I then asked you what was your favorite" real aiplane" to fly? And you looked at me like i had two heads! It was at the legion under many beer and as mentioned many years ago. "I think this is a step closer for westjet to become a "real" airline -". Now i'm looking at you like you have two heads.
kind regards
squawk

[Dick]

After having flown both the dash 8 and the 37, I have to say, after closing the flight deck door, the jobs don't seem that different. Same departures, same arrivals, same approaches, same weather, same chance of making a mistake. Is one really worth more than the other? I'm not sure that it is.

[Gino Under]

squawk

You will often read that landings and takeoffs are the most dangerous phases of any flight. Well, at least that's what I've read throughout my flying career. Have you come up with something different?

You'd think a Q400 in domestic service would do at least the same number of landings and takeoffs in the day as a 737 if not more, therefore exposing it to as many or more landings and takeoffs, so YES, I would equate the two in terms of salary. Why, wouldn't you?

If you go outside North America, aircraft takeoff weight has much less to do with salary. In fact, some 737 pilots make more than a B747 pilot because of this fact. AND, if you look at the number of passengers carried in a day, more often than not, the smaller aeroplane carries more, so therefore, it could be argued, they produce more income for the company.

Westjet is doing fine as it is. Shifting lanes expecially here in Canada IS a dangerous if not, a risky move.

Gino Under

[Liquid Charlie]

L Charlie
Many years ago you told me what a great airplane the 72 was to fly

It still is but just inches out the whoredyne lmfaooooooo

westjet to become a "real" airline -". Now i'm looking at you like you have two heads.
kind regards

That statement was not meant to slag westjet (although I still hate sitting in the back - maybe the Q400 will be a better ride -- lmaooo) what I mean is that Westjet has not dealt with a "set back" yet and is still riding the crest - there will be a day when they furlough and cut back and once a labour force and a company goes through that test the stripes are earned. Maybe it will never happen at westjet but they would certainly be the exception and with any expansion comes that risk - on a side note I feel betrayed by westjet management/marketing with the signing of an agreement with the sand box group. I'm past worrying about my job - 7F is history for me but because I don't like being forced to leave I just went out and found another job -- (how to piss of the youngsters) -- but this kind of erosion and allowing such a carrier more of a foot hold here is not good for Canadian pilots of the future.

So there is me back to rotations but at least I'll see my beach this summer - drop in if you are in the area ---

[squawk]

L.C
Thx understood.

Gino

Unfortunately I think you have your head quarters were your hind quarters ought to be! Thats a great concept but socialism EU style hasn't been working out. Any CEO who approves of paying a guy 200k to fly a plane with 70 seats got his MBA on the back of a crackerjack box.I had a way more challenging job flying the otter. That kind of cabbage would have been nice. I wish your utopia would someday come to pass!
Squawk

[teacher]

Don't worry Gino, many of us agree with you. A plane's a plane. The bigger it is, the easier it is fly. Smaller planes doing more flights on smaller runways. Same same kids, don't let the take-off weight confuse you.

[loopa]

Any CEO who approves of paying a guy 200k to fly a plane with 70 seats got his MBA on the back of a crackerjack box

Isn't this the same operator that won't approve of pilot's acquiring degrees through correspondence when they match them against the hiring matrix? What a bunch of hypocrites! Hint, it's not WestJet.

[squawk]

L Charlie

Do I read this correctly? Your no longer at 7F?
Quest que F?!!

[Jastapilot]

Don't worry Gino, many of us agree with you. A plane's a plane. The bigger it is, the easier it is fly. Smaller planes doing more flights on smaller runways. Same same kids, don't let the take-off weight confuse you.

Yup, all small plane pilots say that, and so did I back then.. They aren't paying for job difficulty, or I would have been making 300K flying the C180 on floats... with no GPS! The HORROR!

[Jastapilot]

That statement was not meant to slag westjet (although I still hate sitting in the back - maybe the Q400 will be a better ride -- lmaooo) what I mean is that Westjet has not dealt with a "set back" yet and is still riding the crest - there will be a day when they furlough and cut back and once a labour force and a company goes through that test the stripes are earned.

WJ HAS had setbacks, and had ample opportunity to lay off people at least once that I know of, but because of their commitment to the WJ culture and the promise that a layoff was the absolute LAST option for management, it hasn't happened to date, to any Westjetter. We had several losing quarters, we majorly downsized the YHM base(not sure what happened at YQM), yet they went out of their way to help people keep a job at westjet, down to the lowly CSA's and bag chuckers.

Maybe it will never happen at westjet but they would certainly be the exception and with any expansion comes that risk - on a side note I feel betrayed by westjet management/marketing with the signing of an agreement with the sand box group.

The Emirates you mean? It's a business opportunity for both sides. I'm just glad they didn't get the green light to expand into Canada like they wanted.

I'm past worrying about my job - 7F is history for me but because I don't like being forced to leave I just went out and found another job -- (how to piss of the youngsters) -- but this kind of erosion and allowing such a carrier more of a foot hold here is not good for Canadian pilots of the future.

Again... Emirates? or WJ Regional?

Sorry to hear about your departure, J. Thanks to your online correspondence way back in the day (mid-late 90's) I ended up being 7F Alumni, but got out before ALPA. I was there for the previous contract negotiations fiasco, so I sympathize with what you must have had to put up with 7F management tactics. Hopefully you're in a better place!