what is going to happen if WJ does the regional thing?

[Liquid Charlie]

Sorry to hear about your departure

- it was under good terms and 7F was a great 26 yr gig for the most part -- only a month and a half before the big "R" - job came up so I took it -- still won't see many trees but I'm cool with that and I'm finally down to one residence -- lmfaoooo

[Greg87]

Looks like the staff approved it, 91% vote in favour. Would be nice if YHM got in on some of the action, would be even nicer if another airline doesn't coincidentally take interest in YHM at the same time, undercut them, and pull out when the competition is gone.

http://www.thespec.com/news/business/ar ... ake-flight

[Jastapilot]

...would be even nicer if another airline doesn't coincidentally take interest in YHM at the same time, undercut them, and pull out when the competition is gone.

Not sure who you're referring to?

[crj_705]

After having flown both the dash 8 and the 37, I have to say, after closing the flight deck door, the jobs don't seem that different. Same departures, same arrivals, same approaches, same weather, same chance of making a mistake. Is one really worth more than the other? I'm not sure that it is.

You hit the nail on the proverbial head my friend…I have been saying this for years now! I don't care if I have one (1) passenger or five hundred (500) passengers behind the cockpit door, we all share the exact same responsibilities to deliver them (and ourselves) to destination. Thinking otherwise, has led to the slow and gradual descent of our profession, the profession of 'Aviator' IMHO

[teacher]

After having flown both the dash 8 and the 37, I have to say, after closing the flight deck door, the jobs don't seem that different. Same departures, same arrivals, same approaches, same weather, same chance of making a mistake. Is one really worth more than the other? I'm not sure that it is.

You hit the nail on the proverbial head my friend…I have been saying this for years now! I don't care if I have one (1) passenger or five hundred (500) passengers behind the cockpit door, we all share the exact same responsibilities to deliver them (and ourselves) to destination. Thinking otherwise, has led to the slow and gradual descent of our profession, the profession of 'Aviator' IMHO

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Gino Under]

http://www.flycseries.com/deck.asp

Maybe an entirely new fleet of new technology aeroplanes, perfectly suited to LCC ops, with Q400 field performance?
B737 MAX? Can't touch this.

Gino Under

[Gino Under]

squawk

To keep things in a simpler context for you, if you think a Q400/ATR pilot should be paid less on a "B" scale and not on the same "A" scale as an NG colleague, why would you (assuming you're a professional pilot getting paid for that thing you do) allow it (assuming you fly for WJ) as a Westjetter? or Westjet owner? This notion can only spell future labour unrest which, as an owner should be your primary concern. Business school 101.

I'd have thought you'd be all in favour of an "A" scale for your fellow professional. Whether or not that fellow "A" scaler made slightly less or even the same (gawd forbid, status pay) for taking the same risk to operate an aircraft in this nasty Canadian flying environment.
How about this for a thought process? Keeping everyone on the same scale would probably go a long way in avoiding labour unrest when the worker bees flying the Qs realize they're putting in tougher days getting paid less on a "B" scale. Labour unrest leads to a stock price reduction and Westjetters would start losing their precious stock value in response.
My bet is, knowing pilots and how they think, it won't take long for the Q crews/ATR crews to figure things out and start a shit storm over everything from what's fair to what's unfair, and from B scale wages to A scale wages, not to mention benefits. Look around the industry, it would't be the first time for this idea to blow up in a companies face. History has a way of repeating itself so be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, I think a "B" scale is just asking for trouble and Westjet seems to be doing fine without pilot egos getting in the way. At least that's how this butt head sees it, based on history.

Gino Under
P.S. I reserve the right to be totally FITH. (F'd in the head)

P.P.S. Most LCCs that go out of business do so because they abandoned their original raison d'etre. Remember, Westjet plays in the Canadian industry. Not Europe, the U.S. or Southeast Asia. Max Ward abandonned charters to become a scheduled airline in this country. Ambition is a wonderful thing, however.... timing is everything, and pilots are getting smarter. Two years from now they'll be a whole lot smarter and a lot less interested in being paid sh*t wages and treated like a second class pilot.

[teacher]

I simple question for all of you when discusing pilot pay. Does an accountant make more at a larger company than a small one? Does a doctor make more at a larger hospital? How about any other skilled jobs in general? For the most part the answer is NO. You are paid for the job you do. I've talked to many engineers, business folks and many others and not getting paid for your experience has them giving me the most puzzled look everytime. We're not talking a janitor or secretary here, we're f#$%ing pilots for frig's sake! Highly trained professionals not unskilled labour.

[WileyCoyote]

Do you really believe that? Of course not all companies pay the same. Doctors get paid different in different communities. Just because people work at the same company, doesn't mean the person driving the pickup truck should get paid the same as the guy driving the big rig.

[ScudRunner]

Re: what is going to happen if WJ does the regional thing?

EXPLOSIONS! Fire and brim stone will hail down upon the earth!! Aviation as we know it will be blown back to a time before Wilbur and Orville put on their smoke and mirror show at Kittyhawk. Dogs will get along with Cats, First officers will make coherent sense and not take the ugly one it will be complete chaos!!!!!! Stock your bunkers people the world is over!!!!


But seriously, WestProp will start with a number of planes eventually 40 or more maybe less someone their will figure it out. The aircraft chosen will most likely be Q400 or ATR or perhaps due to the popularity of Ice Pilots NWT a few DC-3s. Whatever aircraft they choose will have been properly scrutinized by the bean counters and the most suitable/profitable will be chosen. Those aircraft will be incrementally worked into the schedule in a well planned manner on some existing routes and some new one. They no doubt have scoured Avcanada for our insight into the best Yielding routes. My vote is YYZ - CZTM (Shammatawa) so Topper Harley aka C-HRIS can get a jump seat home!

As for Porter acquisition I heard someone say this question was raised at the latest town hall, the response was somewhere along the line of I would rather let them go under and buy their equipment off the bank. (just what I heard)

Pilots and Bonds you ask? Well they can pay them out if they want to jump to this or any other airline, or not and get sued or stuck with the loan if they did that kind of deal

If the economy continues to improve and hiring all over continues at a steady pace, Airlines will be forced to up wages and conditions to attract pilots or park planes. Somehow I doubt they will be begging for resumes, others airlines I think they will always find some smuck to do your job maybe for cheaper than you!

Pay scale sure it will be less than mainline, but I have a feeling they will have a pretty good stack of resumes to sift through never pay more than market price

thats my 2 cents

[TheSuit]

Do you really believe that? Of course not all companies pay the same. Doctors get paid different in different communities. Just because people work at the same company, doesn't mean the person driving the pickup truck should get paid the same as the guy driving the big rig.

+1

Does an accountant make more at a larger company than a small one? Does a doctor make more at a larger hospital? How about any other skilled jobs in general? For the most part the answer is NO. You are paid for the job you do. I've talked to many engineers, business folks and many others and not getting paid for your experience has them giving me the most puzzled look everytime.

The answer is YES. Big firm corporate lawyer gets paid more than small town slip-and-fall lawyer. Geologist gets paid more working for Exxon than for the local surveying company. The accountant makes more working at Goldman Sachs than at your bank branch. Computer programmer gets more working at Google or Apple than in your airlines IT department. And yes, in the U.S. under private healthcare, doctors working for large hospitals do indeed get paid more than those working at smaller ones. Your pay is base on two factors:

1) The market price for your labor (what YOU get).
2) How much revenue your position generates for the company (what the COMPANY gets).

If #1 is higher than #2 (or they are too close), the company won't bother to hire you. If WestJet regional has to pay narrow body wages on small body aircraft, there is no point in launching the venture. As a pilot, your skills may be equal and the work may be equivalent or harder, but the VALUE of the work to the company is lower, so you get paid less.

[KAG]

You can't pay our "A" scale wage, which is the wrong term- its a seperate pay scale as there not flying the same equipment.
Our senior CPTS T4 $218,000, our senior FO's $120,000 - a little rich for ANY prop.

[SAR_YQQ]

As for Porter acquisition I heard someone say this question was raised at the latest town hall, the response was somewhere along the line of I would rather let them go under and buy their equipment off the bank.

I guess former Canadian Airlines employees were fortunate that AC wasn't allowed to do exactly that...

[Livin'Something]

KAG,
I couldn't agree more. If Westjet payed their new hire 737 F/O's a lesser wage, that would be a "B" scale.
If Westjet is going to compete in the regional market they need to play with the same rules (apples to apples).
I love how people think Westjet should be the leader in changing the whole industry. Does Air canada pay the same for an Emb vs 777? (Nothing against AC) but come on, I think you have to put in perspective the progression in ones career. You can't start out making $200,000 a year.

Good luck to Westjet!

[TopperHarley]

My vote is YYZ - CZTM (Shammatawa) so Topper Harley aka C-HRIS can get a jump seat home!

My fingers are crossed

[Gino Under]

What was, and what is now, is NOT necessarily the way forward.

To draw attention to Air Canada pilot salaries across various fleets (with no disrespect to AC pilots) isn't saying much. Pilot salaries overall in Canada are in desperate need of an overhaul. Those companies that can't afford to compensate pilots properly should find another type of business venture. I for one think it's pathetic when I hear people, especially a fellow pilot say "if you don't like it you can always go fly for someone else".

Actually, if I don't like the salary compensation at a particular company, I don't accept the position. That attitude has certainly changed my so-called flying career, but I'm a lot happier since I woke up. If no one wants to pay me what I consider a respectable salary for my ability and experience, then I don't work there. They usually ask an applicant what salary he/she expects, so I write it down. As naieve as that may sound to some, it works for me. Today I am fortunate enough to be doing something I truly enjoy and I'm compensated very well for it. Thanks in part to the number I wrote down on my application a couple of years back. (bully for me, I know)

One musn't assume that 'paying your dues' today is the same or needs to be the same as paying your dues 20 or 30 years ago. It's time that rationale stopped and it's we pilots who have to change it.
The only ones capable of changing this industry for the better are the ones presently sitting at a window seat. Especially those who are card carrying members of a pilot union or pilot association. They're the ones with the most power to change how pilots view or accept poor compensation for the work they do. In most cases the compensation rarely fits at any level so it's going to be a hot button in most discussions on pilot salaries.

A 90 pax turboprop Captain is worth more than a senior F/O on an NG. Of course, a Q400 or ATR pilot may not be worth $280,000 a year but he/she is at least worth half that.

When I came back from overseas in the mid-90s, I got a job as a junior F/O making $40,000 a year. Which was a complete joke. My colleagues told me it was the industry standard. It may have been in the mid 80s the industry standard. A brand new Honda Accord was worth $11,000 in 1984. What's a new Accord worth today? More than double. Price of a home? Double. Pilot salaries haven't moved proportionally over that same period. Today, companies are paying $50-55,000 for a Jr. F/O with no jet time. (I know one or two may be around $80K) They would never employ someone like me with lots of jet time and international experience at $55K, especially if I had to join as a Jr. F/O. Hell, senior F/As make more than that. Some CSRs with overtime make more than that and some idiot will still tell you a pilot making 50K is the industry 'standard'. Seriously???

I bet there are dozens with similar stories out there and I would estimate that those presently overseas upon return to Canada will have the same opinion. If in almost 25 years the starting wage has only gone up 10-15,000, it hasn't kept pace with everything else on the planet and that's a joke.

The history lesson in all of this is that splitting A and B scales over a turbo prop feeder will only serve to foster a poisonous atmosphere and lead to labour unrest. That just isn't good for Westjet unless they make the compensation package realistic.

Gino Under

[Double Wasp]

our senior FO's $120,000 - a little rich for ANY prop.

I am not saying that this should be the starting wage however 120k/yr is not unreasonable for a SENIOR (read top of the scale) Captain who is flying an aircraft that can have up to 90 seats in it, (prop, jet or otherwise). You have to remember that some operators say that this is "a little rich" for a 737 FO as well.

One way for Westjet to avoid an us vs them mentality would be a blended payscale of some sort and remove the terms "regional" and "mainline" from the whole conversation.

An example of such a payscale could be:

737 Capt yr 1-10
737 FO/Turbo Prop Captain yr 1-10
Turbo Prop FO yr 1-10

So a turbo prop Captain gets the same as a 737 FO for the same years of service. This would save people chasing iron for money and would encourage people to think about moving to the turbo prop side of things. You would have to adjust the first 2 years of 737 FO pay or say that a Turbo prop Captain starts at yr 3 (or whatever 75k/yr works out to) and holds there until the years of service catches up, or something like that. Give them the same benefits, allowances, profit share, ESP etc. as the current "Flap Operators " and you would not have to worry about any talk of inequality.

Just an idea to promote unity in your workplace.

Cheers
DW

[squawk]

Gino

Are you in Athens by any chance??

[NovaBoy]

Well said Gino, I couldn't agree more. In 1998 I went captain at Air Nova, started at $70K/ year, fast forward to 2012, Dash-8 captains are still making $70K/year. Where's the progress?

Unfortunately I don't see the industry getting any better anytime soon. I think without a national association that looks out for all commercial pilots, and sets minimum wages and working conditions we will continue to eat our young.

If Westjet wants to keep experienced captains in the seat of a 70 seat turboprop, $70K/year is not going to do it. Hopefully the stock options will make up for it. I'd love to come work for Westjet as a q400 captain but the industry standard is just not enough to leave where I am at to go back to 1998 wages again.

What was, and what is now, is NOT necessarily the way forward.

To draw attention to Air Canada pilot salaries across various fleets (with no disrespect to AC pilots) isn't saying much. Pilot salaries overall in Canada are in desperate need of an overhaul. Those companies that can't afford to compensate pilots properly should find another type of business venture. I for one think it's pathetic when I hear people, especially a fellow pilot say "if you don't like it you can always go fly for someone else".

Actually, if I don't like the salary compensation at a particular company, I don't accept the position. That attitude has certainly changed my so-called flying career, but I'm a lot happier since I woke up. If no one wants to pay me what I consider a respectable salary for my ability and experience, then I don't work there. They usually ask an applicant what salary he/she expects, so I write it down. As naieve as that may sound to some, it works for me. Today I am fortunate enough to be doing something I truly enjoy and I'm compensated very well for it. Thanks in part to the number I wrote down on my application a couple of years back. (bully for me, I know)

One musn't assume that 'paying your dues' today is the same or needs to be the same as paying your dues 20 or 30 years ago. It's time that rationale stopped and it's we pilots who have to change it.
The only ones capable of changing this industry for the better are the ones presently sitting at a window seat. Especially those who are card carrying members of a pilot union or pilot association. They're the ones with the most power to change how pilots view or accept poor compensation for the work they do. In most cases the compensation rarely fits at any level so it's going to be a hot button in most discussions on pilot salaries.

A 90 pax turboprop Captain is worth more than a senior F/O on an NG. Of course, a Q400 or ATR pilot may not be worth $280,000 a year but he/she is at least worth half that.

When I came back from overseas in the mid-90s, I got a job as a junior F/O making $40,000 a year. Which was a complete joke. My colleagues told me it was the industry standard. It may have been in the mid 80s the industry standard. A brand new Honda Accord was worth $11,000 in 1984. What's a new Accord worth today? More than double. Price of a home? Double. Pilot salaries haven't moved proportionally over that same period. Today, companies are paying $50-55,000 for a Jr. F/O with no jet time. (I know one or two may be around $80K) They would never employ someone like me with lots of jet time and international experience at $55K, especially if I had to join as a Jr. F/O. Hell, senior F/As make more than that. Some CSRs with overtime make more than that and some idiot will still tell you a pilot making 50K is the industry 'standard'. Seriously???

I bet there are dozens with similar stories out there and I would estimate that those presently overseas upon return to Canada will have the same opinion. If in almost 25 years the starting wage has only gone up 10-15,000, it hasn't kept pace with everything else on the planet and that's a joke.

The history lesson in all of this is that splitting A and B scales over a turbo prop feeder will only serve to foster a poisonous atmosphere and lead to labour unrest. That just isn't good for Westjet unless they make the compensation package realistic.

Gino Under

[Gino Under]

Squawk

Not in Athens.
I'm a displaced maritimer working in YUL.

Cheers,
Gino

[black metal]

our senior FO's $120,000 - a little rich for ANY prop.

I am not saying that this should be the starting wage however 120k/yr is not unreasonable for a SENIOR (read top of the scale) Captain who is flying an aircraft that can have up to 90 seats in it, (prop, jet or otherwise). You have to remember that some operators say that this is "a little rich" for a 737 FO as well.

One way for Westjet to avoid an us vs them mentality would be a blended payscale of some sort and remove the terms "regional" and "mainline" from the whole conversation.

An example of such a payscale could be:

737 Capt yr 1-10
737 FO/Turbo Prop Captain yr 1-10
Turbo Prop FO yr 1-10

So a turbo prop Captain gets the same as a 737 FO for the same years of service. This would save people chasing iron for money and would encourage people to think about moving to the turbo prop side of things. You would have to adjust the first 2 years of 737 FO pay or say that a Turbo prop Captain starts at yr 3 (or whatever 75k/yr works out to) and holds there until the years of service catches up, or something like that. Give them the same benefits, allowances, profit share, ESP etc. as the current "Flap Operators " and you would not have to worry about any talk of inequality.

Just an idea to promote unity in your workplace.

Cheers
DW

WOW... So a Q400 captain should make $50k a year flying for westjet to start? Making progress.. We're all gonna make it with this logic!!

[Double Wasp]

our senior FO's $120,000 - a little rich for ANY prop.

I am not saying that this should be the starting wage however 120k/yr is not unreasonable for a SENIOR (read top of the scale) Captain who is flying an aircraft that can have up to 90 seats in it, (prop, jet or otherwise). You have to remember that some operators say that this is "a little rich" for a 737 FO as well.

One way for Westjet to avoid an us vs them mentality would be a blended payscale of some sort and remove the terms "regional" and "mainline" from the whole conversation.

An example of such a payscale could be:

737 Capt yr 1-10
737 FO/Turbo Prop Captain yr 1-10
Turbo Prop FO yr 1-10

So a turbo prop Captain gets the same as a 737 FO for the same years of service. This would save people chasing iron for money and would encourage people to think about moving to the turbo prop side of things. You would have to adjust the first 2 years of 737 FO pay or say that a Turbo prop Captain starts at yr 3 (or whatever 75k/yr works out to) and holds there until the years of service catches up, or something like that. Give them the same benefits, allowances, profit share, ESP etc. as the current "Flap Operators " and you would not have to worry about any talk of inequality.

Just an idea to promote unity in your workplace.

Cheers
DW

WOW... So a Q400 captain should make $50k a year flying for westjet to start? Making progress.. We're all gonna make it with this logic!!

Thanks for taking the time to read the whole post and noting the part where I say that they would have to adjust the first 2 years of pay or that they should start on an equivalent to year 3 and hold there until their years of service catch up to their pay. (I have set the appropriate section in bold in the above quote for your clarification)

All the best in your future endeavours
DW

[black metal]

hhhmmmm! i have a couple of buddies who didn't make 75k in their 3rd year bw.. no hate here!!

[black metal]

sorry DW!!

[DaveP]

Hi Guys,
Don't get too wound up on the "assumed"wage thing.
I have seen the proposed wages and they aren't 50 or 70 k to start for a captain. It's better than that.

As I mentioned earlier, this wage is right there with the starting of Jazz. It's not set in stone and it will be scaleable as the airline progresses and succeeds. As will the benefits etc.

The whole process is just starting. The OC work has begun, the procurement process has started and the senior management is being discussed.

Anything that is being mentioned here, isn't unknown.

Pretty exciting. It's going to be a fun place to work.

Cheers,
Dave.