Westjetters back Regional Airline 91% say yes

[Old fella]

Many years ago (and I remember) EPA/QuebecAir/NordAir were running around in the eastern part of the country with B737s. Not too far back there was Air Nova/Air Atlantic running around this part (again) with DHC-8 and Bae-146. There were shakeups in those days and I bet in 2020 or later there will be shakeups with WestJet Lite/Porter/Jazz as they are running around with same type of airplanes. I know little if anything about airline ops but there appears to be well informed/knowledgeable people who post here (aka bmc) and all directions point to WJ being a step above the rest in mgt style. I bet WJ will corner that segment of the market and Porter/Jazz will join ranks of the 1970-80 names that are no longer around even though some were top notch operations……

Just a thought.

[EyeOh]

I am quite dissapointed that these kind of figures had to be attached to this deal at all. It is my opinion that you shouldn't need cheaper labour for this business to succeed. I think it is a fantastic business idea otherwise. People will fly WJ for the service even if the price is the same. But I dont think the price will be the same even with decently paid pilots. Jazz/AC has many other facets to their business that will prevent long term price matching anyways. Southwest pilots have some of the best salaries in the business and they still beat people at the bottom line. .
So why couldn't the company just have come out and said "this is the business idea. We will AT LEAST match Jazz (because, let's face it, that is hardly the bar you want to aim for anyway) and we will still beat them on the same routes because of our fantastic brand and our hard work. People would have continued to be envious of what WJ is doing.
But it didnt go down that way. At least the company was very creative in asking the pilots. So then I would have really liked to see WJPA come back with a "hey thanks for putting value in our opinion! We think it's a great idea but can we do it without puting such a low figure on the salary?" Why commit to so much with such figures being batted around?
Maybe this happened and they didnt publisize it. But I doubt it as that would be foolish as they already had made so much of it public already.
What I really wonder is how this will effect WJ "mainline" growth (from a pilot's perspective read : time to command/hiring FO's.) There are going to be some routes that the D8 will do more efficiently that the 737 currently operates.
Why does a D8 pilot need to make any less at all? Why not do status pay? This would remove any worries of one negatively effecting the other. It would offer some opertunities for current FO' on the 737 to get an earlier command on the D8.
A different way of looking at this is constantly touted and to me this wasnt a great example of it. Not trying to attack anyone. Just my 2 cents.

[The Hammer]

Hi Guys,


Maybe someone can correct me but I noticed on airline pay.com that the starting wage at Jazz is around 41 or 42 for an FO and a Capt is 75? Is this chart correct?

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ation.html

If so we will be right in there from what I've seen.

The procurement process is well under way and we will have a decision on type within 3 months. The ATR will likely be out front demonstrating next week. The hard work is just starting.

I'm pretty excited!

Jazz uses status pay so in theory all 1st year captains make approx 75k. But pay is based on time at Jazz ie There are no 1st year captain's. I believe the most junior captain is +5 years with the average being approx 15 years. There are FO's in YVR with +15 years seniority, too junior to hold a yvr capt spot. The 757 captains at Jazz are almost all at the top wage scale +17 years service at Jazz. Dave P you likely know a bunch of them as they are all yyz (or former yxu based)pilots with several starting at White River Airways or Austin's on floats.

80% of median makes Jazz D8 wages pretty much irrelevant because they will not be a factor. They would affect average wages though.

[Double Wasp]

This is what I posted in the General section of the forums:


KAG wrote:

our senior FO's $120,000 - a little rich for ANY prop

.


I am not saying that this should be the starting wage however 120k/yr is not unreasonable for a SENIOR (read top of the scale) Captain who is flying an aircraft that can have up to 90 seats in it, (prop, jet or otherwise). You have to remember that some operators say that this is "a little rich" for a 737 FO as well.

One way for Westjet to avoid an "us vs them" mentality would be a blended payscale of some sort and remove the terms "regional" and "mainline" from the whole conversation.

An example of such a payscale could be:

737 Capt yr 1-10
737 FO/Turbo Prop Captain yr 1-10
Turbo Prop FO yr 1-10

So a turbo prop Captain gets the same as a 737 FO for the same years of service. This would save people chasing iron for money and would encourage people to think about moving to the turbo prop side of things. You would have to adjust the first 2 years of 737 FO pay or say that a Turbo prop Captain starts at yr 3 (or whatever 75k/yr works out to) and holds there until the years of service catches up, or something like that. Give them the same benefits, allowances, profit share, ESP etc. as the current "Flap Operators " and you would not have to worry about any talk of inequality.

Just an idea to promote unity in your workplace.

Cheers
DW

[Rotten Apple #1]

Is there any guarantee that Jazz will be around in 5 years, still doing the flying for AC? Who's to say that it won't be Sky Regional? And if that were to pass, how profitable would WJR be with the anchor of higher wages tied to the operation?

That is all.

[TheSuit]

We will AT LEAST match Jazz (because, let's face it, that is hardly the bar you want to aim for anyway) and we will still beat them on the same routes because of our fantastic brand and our hard work.

What planet are you on?

Why does a D8 pilot need to make any less at all? Why not do status pay? This would remove any worries of one negatively effecting the other. It would offer some opertunities for current FO' on the 737 to get an earlier command on the D8.

Oh, planet self-centered pilot stereotype. A place where no other employees, shareholders (many of which are regular people and employees), or the travelling public who want to be able to afford flights matter. The airline exists for the express purpose of providing you with the highest remuneration, most days off, best schedule, your choice of equipment to fly, your choice of routes, fastest upgrade to left seat and poshest flight benefits.

What you and your disgruntled cohorts should do, is put your money where your mouth is. Pool together your money, buy a couple aircraft and get started building your utopia. You've already started your business case here, just head down to Bay Street and see what they say.

[True North]

People will fly WJ for the service even if the price is the same.

Some will, many won't. Price is everything these days and WJ will offer lower fares to attract people.

Why does a D8 pilot need to make any less at all? Why not do status pay?

What you and your ilk fail to grasp is that WJ pays its pilots based on 16 years worth revenues generated by a 737. The revenues generated by a 70 seat turbo prop do not compare to those of a 737. That is why pilot wages for larger a/c tend to be higher than for smaller a/c. Status pay? That will work, as long as every WJ pilot is prepared to take a pay cut. What do you suppose the chances of that are?

[The Hammer]

Is there any guarantee that Jazz will be around in 5 years, still doing the flying for AC? Who's to say that it won't be Sky Regional? And if that were to pass, how profitable would WJR be with the anchor of higher wages tied to the operation?

That is all.

Westjet pays it's 737 crews more than it's main competitor's pilots on similar equipment right now. How does it make a profit doing that?

Why would it be any different in the turboprop sector? Your flight crew costs are what % of the the total costs? Well under 10% at every airline I've worked at. If you have to skimp on wages you have a bigger problem and a poor long term business model.

Ask Gregg if he wants to compete with the current AC/Jazz model ie head just barely above water vs an AC somehow getting a Jetstar/Skyregional or US based regional model. Never say never.

Every Westjetter should want the current AC/Jazz model to continue to compete with. It's fat and slow and reacts like a drunken sailor when attacked and has hundreds of distractions to deal with in addition to dealing with competition. This a WJ manager's dream.

Jetsgo didn't last long but it sure gave everyone else's bottom line a sh$tkicking while it was here and it was a G.F. operation.

Do not create a split amongst your pilot group as there will come a time when it will be used against you. CEO's come and go and you have already hired one or two boobs already in your short existence.

You have already voted down a TA once so not all the exec's/bean counters/share holders are drinking the same Kool-Aid as you.

[JMACK]

Hi Loopa,
We understand that to be a big question.
So I'll put it to you...to keep moral high, would it not be better to draw more talent (for the 737 expansion) from the regional for two things - moral and career progression? Of course it would!

We can and take up to 100 percent from the regional. It will cost more for training, but the trade off is moral and motivation. That helps keep everyone pulling on the same rope and adding to the growth and the basic strength of the company.This little venture will start out lean and will likely be profitable. Pay, benefits and ESP will all be scaleable too. Who knows, maybe down the road it will assist in us obtaining bigger A/C if we decide to go that route.

Dave.

That is awesome.........WOW!

[Rotten Apple #1]

the Hammer, you plan for the future like the status quo with respect to competition in our new regional space will remain in place. I'm glad you're not in our strategic planning office! You also talk like a pilot and not a business exec if you think that incremental costs do not add up at the end of the day to become a big deal. And as far as AC's pilot cost per seat mile, are the pension costs factored in when you confidently state the we at WJ are paid more? Or is it perhaps that our productivity makes us leaner, and cheaper? The big numbers you see bantered about here and there regarding pilot wages at WJ could also reflect the ability to pick up extra flying to increase pay, something our colleagues at AC do not have the ability to do, if I understand correctly.

Whatever, no one is forcing you to take the job.

Anyway, I'm sure you're a nice guy like me so cheers to us both.

[loopa]

I wonder how much cost savings is endured alone by having every body help chip in to groom the plane on turn overs? I usually book the window seat and and when I can I help out by at the very least crossing seat belts in my row and grabbing any extra garbage in the seat pocket and handing it over to the flight attendants. What can I say, I believe in the WestJet culture!

[pacman007]

im all for taking 100% of the pilots from the regional to the mainline but dosent that make it hard for the guy with 4000-5000 hours who is capt on a 705 machine or jet? does he have to sit right seat on a q400 or ATR for years just to get to the 737. I think 2 out of every 4 should be upgraded to mainline leaving the door open to high timers to go direct to the 737? any opinions

[pacman007]

im all for taking 100% of the pilots from the regional to mainline but dosent that make it hard for the guy with 4000-5000 hours who is capt on a 705 machine or jet? does he have to sit right seat on a q400 or ATR for years just to get to the 737. I think 2 out of every 4 should be upgraded to mainline leaving the door open to high timers to go direct to the 737? any opinions

[RussD]

im all for taking 100% of the pilots from the regional to mainline but dosent that make it hard for the guy with 4000-5000 hours who is capt on a 705 machine or jet? does he have to sit right seat on a q400 or ATR for years just to get to the 737. I think 2 out of every 4 should be upgraded to mainline leaving the door open to high timers to go direct to the 737? any opinions

And so it starts

[CAL]

120k as a senior FO?...if your talking westjet I think it would be responsible for you to qualify that number.
The highest the payscale goes to 99 per hour and it stops there....I dont need to do the math its obvious that doesnt equal 120k. Many benefits to WJ I know but money isnt one of them...unless you live to work...then its a gold mine.

[DaveP]

Removed to keep the thread on track.
Cheers

[KAG]

120k as a senior FO?...if your talking westjet I think it would be responsible for you to qualify that number.
The highest the payscale goes to 99 per hour and it stops there....I dont need to do the math its obvious that doesnt equal 120k. Many benefits to WJ I know but money isnt one of them...unless you live to work...then its a gold mine.

Sure, our min blocking average is 77.5, we average 80. So the average is 960 hours a year $99*960= $95,040. Now if you do 20% ESPP thats $114,048 a year. I've done over 5K a year in profit share the last few years, and I also get 3,500 on RSU's (restricted stock units). Our max FO pay raises to $101/HR this May.
That and I do a few OT calls a year so I'm pushing 130K as a senior FO. Sure the 20% ESP is really a self directed pension that we have access to, but because we pay tax up front it shows up on our T4. I'd have to work 100 credit hours a month to make 120K without ESP, which some of my peers do. I'm all about days off so I don't.
Hope this helps.

[prop2jet]

120k as a senior FO?...if your talking westjet I think it would be responsible for you to qualify that number.
The highest the payscale goes to 99 per hour and it stops there....I dont need to do the math its obvious that doesnt equal 120k. Many benefits to WJ I know but money isnt one of them...unless you live to work...then its a gold mine.

Sure, our min blocking average is 77.5, we average 80. So the average is 960 hours a year $99*960= $95,040. Now if you do 20% ESPP thats $114,048 a year. I've done over 5K a year in profit share the last few years, and I also get 3,500 on RSU's (restricted stock units). Our max FO pay raises to $101/HR this May.
That and I do a few OT calls a year so I'm pushing 130K as a senior FO. Sure the 20% ESP is really a self directed pension that we have access to, but because we pay tax up front it shows up on our T4. I'd have to work 100 credit hours a month to make 120K without ESP, which some of my peers do. I'm all about days off so I don't.
Hope this helps.

Based on the above, what then is the average take home pay, years 1-3?

[co-joe]

I don't see why one company, one OC, with 2 aircraft types couldn't work. I'm sure lots of 37 FO's would "bid" left seat Dash for the captain pay/experience, just as Dash captains might move right seat 37 for the lifestyle or just change of scenery. Why this "sister company" and different pay scale talk? Obviously when the new op is fledging it will need experienced captains to get the ball rolling, but once established who knows?

Best of luck whatever happens.

[TheSuit]

When you're holding the purse strings, bidding across types is exactly what you DON'T want to happen.

[The Hammer]

the Hammer, you plan for the future like the status quo with respect to competition in our new regional space will remain in place. I'm glad you're not in our strategic planning office! You also talk like a pilot and not a business exec if you think that incremental costs do not add up at the end of the day to become a big deal. And as far as AC's pilot cost per seat mile, are the pension costs factored in when you confidently state the we at WJ are paid more? Or is it perhaps that our productivity makes us leaner, and cheaper? The big numbers you see bantered about here and there regarding pilot wages at WJ could also reflect the ability to pick up extra flying to increase pay, something our colleagues at AC do not have the ability to do, if I understand correctly.

Whatever, no one is forcing you to take the job.

Anyway, I'm sure you're a nice guy like me so cheers to us both.

I may not be in your strategic planning office but I have plenty of experience witnessing disgruntled "2nd class pilot" syndrome and the inefficiencies it can create for the organization. One example-2 "discretionary" visits to the CDF in YYZ per year will eat up any wage savings. Just saying

[stickontheice]

You may have plenty of experience witnessing 2nd class citizen syndrome but It sounds like you have no experience with being treated like we are. We have a say in the way we impact culture. We don't pull crap like that and that's what puts culture first. Just like we were given the opportunity to vote on the Regional project and that's how are Executives put culture first. There's no reason to believe that the people we hire for the Regional wil not have the same attitude and dedication to our values. Regardless of what the final pay and work conditions are put in place we have a hiring team that will find the right people to carry our culture forward with the right respect and attitude it deserves. There won't be any 2nd class citizens because treating people like that is inconsistent with how the company was founded and matured.

[RussD]

Seems the braintrust at WJ outsourced a big chunk of the strageic planning for this little venture. Holly Hegeman love her or hate her always has something to say.. From Plane Business:

"For those of you who are Network Nerds (and you know who you are), one can't help but be fascinated by what is going on north of the border, as WestJet, an all Boeing 737 airline, has now officially made the decision to launch a regional operation. While I think many of us had assumed that subsidiary would fly Bombardier Q400s exclusively, the airline said in its call that, no, it was talking with both Bombardier about the Q400s and with ATR about the ATR 72-600. Or rather, its consultants were talking to both manufacturers.

Listening to the airline's earnings call, was I the only one who felt that management at WestJet seems to be taking this huge step with a bit more swagger than is appropriate? How many "regional" airline spinoffs have we seen come and go? Too many to count.
How many specifically in the Canadian airspace? Too many to count.
As one reader reminded us recently, "Every single "airline within an airline" venture over the past 15+years, (Song, Zip, Tango, MetroJet, Cal Lite, Ted, Shuttle by United, Delta Express etc., etc.), were designed by clever MBAs who were able to convince the airlines' Boards of Directors, to some extent, their employees, the investment community and the public that their concept was fool proof and a "nobrainer.'"As I alluded to above, another interesting tidbit that I picked up on, and more than one subscriber also noted to us last week, was the comment that was made in the WestJet call re: the airline has hired Seabury to do the aircraft analysis on the Q400 and the ATR. One subscriber dropped us a note last week and pondered, "Does this sound like an LCC to you?" He went on to say that WestJet was beginning to sound more and more like a legacy carrier. "Why can't the airline do its own aircraft analysis?" he wrote. "WestJet succeeded in the past by being the anti-Air Canada. This news bothers me." Another reader agreed, writing,

"Although management has made efforts to compare the launch of the WestJet
Regional to the low cost launch of WestJet in 1996, they then go and announce that
they have engaged Seabury to do the aircraft analysis. Nothing against our friends
in the consulting industry, but Seabury consulted extensively to Air Canada during
their bankruptcy in 2003-2004 and we all know how effective that was from a
corporate profitability perspective. Seabury is clearly as high cost a consultative outfit there is in North America whenit comes to these matters."

When I heard WestJet first mention the possibility of adding a regional operation, it didn't surprise me, as I can see why it could help the airline make better use of its existing route structure. But while I wasn't surprised at the news they have decided to make such a move, I am somewhat concerned by the way they seem to be going about implementing the new operation. The airline has hired Seabury to provide it with aircraft purchase analysis. How much will WestJet itself be involved in this analysis, if at all? Are there other decisions that will be farmed out to thirdparties? In my view-- this is the kind of stuff that begins to tear down the low-cost underpinnings, not tomention the top-down, down-up operational knowledge of the LCC Mothership.

Also, we heard no details in last week's earnings call as to who will be in charge of the new regional operation. Is management for the new operation going to come from among existing WestJet management? Or will it be brought in from "outside" the WestJet culture?
This is a huge undertaking. No question about it.
Bottomline: I am having some painful bouts of deja vu all over again regarding the WestJet Express project. If the operation is well-planned and executed, it could easily be the bullet in the Air Canada operation. But if it is not executed almost perfectly, the airline could be looking at an unmitigated disaster, both financially and culturally.
Just a caution for our friends north of the border in Calgary: It's not that easy to do what it is you say you want to do. The industry track record is littered with the carcasses of failed airlines, all wrapped up in the shredded remains of expensive consulting bills."

[complexintentions]

Hmmm looks like Saretsky's roots are showing through more and more. You can take the man out of the legacy carrier, but you can't take the legacy carrier out of...

[Legacy]

I fully agree with her opinion about this could be a big success or a disaster all depending on the execution. Fully agree. Not so sure about her opinion on getting an outside company to do an analysis. I know nothing about this Seabury and maybe they aren't the company to use but I definitely think it should analyzed. I am sure we have our own analysis (if WJ lives one thing its data) and why wouldn't you want to compare your analysis with another outside view just to make sure your own numbers jive and didn't miss anything. I think thats the responsible thing to do IMHO.