Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
For some reason, people who live the Cinderella story - ie rightno PIC time, which means you don't get an ATPL
Flightman7 wrote:As far as being hired by jazz out of college goes, its 10 years right seat for promotion to captain. In that time you will be well over requirements. Once again, dont you think jazz considers these things? Wouldn't you be happy being a captain at jazz making >70k a year when you in your early thirties? Thats a sweet gig.
Indeed, but to re-quote you, "I think picking up a ramp job at say Sunwest or Perimeter would be pretty smart. I mean 1-2 years ramp and then your logging PIC on the navajo?" I was merely pointing out that you won't be going left seat on a Navajo with 200 hours at Sunwest, and probably not anywhere else for that matter. Sunwest has instituted an effective training policy to allow their pilots to obtain an ATPL and multi-PIC requirements for Contrails, but that isn't the case at every company, and I simply wanted to make you aware of that before you spend a year or two ramping somewhere that only operates two-crew aircraft.Flightman7 wrote:From what I understand Sunwest goes somewhere along the lines of Ramp-Ramp and part time F/O on Navajo-Full time on Navajo right seat-Right seat Metro-Captain Navajo-and so on.
There's absolutely nothing to say that you'll be "well over requirements" after ten years of flying. You can have 10000 hours and only 100 PIC, just like float pilots can have 10000 hours and no night time at all. As Colonel Sanders pointed out, the Jazz pilots hired out of college are responsible for obtaining the requisite hours for their licences on their own; Jazz doesn't hold their hands. Some companies have instituted pilot-in-command-under-supervision programs, but that only provides 100 hours at the most, and the candidate must already have 150 hours PIC before beginning. That means you need to get at least 50 hours of PIC, perhaps as much as 150 if the company isn't permitted to operate the PIC-U/S program. At $150 per hour, that's an expensive venture that not every F/O can afford, especially with a family to feed and a mortgage to pay; getting hired onto the ramp at a company like CMA right out of flight school might seem like a dream, but when you get to 2800 hours and realize you don't have nearly enough PIC for an ATPL, and that you only make $28000 a year, it can quickly become a nightmare. Alternatively, imagine getting on with a company in Calgary that only operates under Contrails, and you have no multi-PIC; your options are to pay for 500 hours of rentals in a twin, or find another job that will let you get that experience. The company is under no obligation whatsoever to ensure you are upgradeable. That's your responsibility, and they expect you to take care of it.Flightman7 wrote:As far as being hired by jazz out of college goes, its 10 years right seat for promotion to captain. In that time you will be well over requirements. Once again, dont you think jazz considers these things?
Going to a flight school for (eg) 100 hrs of PIC is like buying your groceries at the corner convenience store. Yes, it's easy, but Holy Christ that's expensive. If you only need say 10 hrs of night PIC x/c I can see doing that, but there are cheaper options.you need to get at least 50 hours of PIC, perhaps as much as 150 if the company isn't permitted to operate the PIC-U/S program. At $150 per hour, that's an expensive venture
Any job in aviation is better than no job when looking at starting your career. If the company with no upgrade is hiring and it is a good company, my advice is take the job for 3 reasons.Flightman7 wrote:
So what i've gathered is ramp jobs are, For the most part, a complete waste of time unless they have single crew aircraft, or some other way of getting you PIC. Other then that, Instructing is the way to go.
). Say you start working there when you 22-23. by age 26 thats a failry decent gig, and it will only get better. Another thought is I've talked to a few people in the industry and they said its fairly tough to get a good intructer job. The busy schools are obviously highly competitive and hours are low everywhere else. Its certainly not a pick and choose situation out there, you have to take the best you can get.Flightman, this comment is not in effort to make you feel like crap. But your lack of experience really shines through this reply to Supercharged.Flightman7 wrote:Yeah but sometimes putting in hard work to get you in a good position, makes sense, even if its unrelated hard work. So what if you have 2000 hours PIC on a 150 and maybe 50-100 hours multi? The reason that time is valuable is because it can get you a good Multi Gig. The same type of Gig the guy that worked the ramp has been in for a year. So your analogy isn't always applicable to aviation. Although it is an extremely valid point. I'm just offering an alternative point of view, not arguing. also consider that I know nothing about aviation, I've only flown a plane twice. Thanks for the post.
+1KAG wrote:Working the ramp for the right company is a great way to get to fly the line.
Take North Wright Air in Norman wells, they hire a ton of rampies and promote no time guys to the fleet of single pistons, over time you move up to multi turbine.
As many have pointed out getting PIC time is key, and without it you can get stuck.
Case in point I went the instructor route and it got me onto a king air. By the time I had 2500 I already had ATPL (had that by 1550 hours) 700 PIC on the king air where some of my FO's had 2500 hours and no PIC and no ATPL.
There is really no right or wrong way to build time and there isn't one type of flying that will completely build a solid resume. A good variety of flying and locations will open different doors.
You may get lucky and find a company that does it all, or you may need to make a few moves.
Either way do not base your education choices on an extremely small chance of getting on with a specific company.
loopa wrote:It seems to me that the opportunities for instructor's (even though the first couple of years is spent in the circuit and what is biased to be flying in blue sky conditions) roll about with a bit more confidence than for rampies. As an instructor you are paying your dues for a right seat, most likely on a turbine twin. After a year or two you are now going to be captain on that turbine twin because of primarily two things: you have PIC time from instructing, and you have 703/704 experience to take on a leadership role in that job. Flying around for a year or 2 on that turbine will most likely land you a Jet job or a transport category turboprop job. Do either or in the right seat for a bit, then left seat for a bit, then you start getting recognized by the airlines.
This is only ONE of many routes for candidates like instructors, but it seems to be the most common route instructor's take. On average the time from Instructing to the right seat at WJA/AC takes 5-7 years. While it might take longer, you enter the airline world with a well rounded aviation career. All cause of that significant PIC time you gathered in a 172? Pretty valuable stuff when you look at your career for the long term.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane—
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
What a great way to look at life. Thanks for the post and advice.Double Wasp wrote:There is no right or wrong way. There are as many ways to get through this career as there are pilots flying. The choices you make have to be right for you, not anyone else. Just try to remember that life is about the journey and the stories that you will be telling your grandchildren one day. The most important thing is to get the job done as safely as possible so you get home to tell those stories.
Cheers
DW
Similar ideas have been outlines by James ball The author of "So you want to be a pilot eh". It appears you certainly know the ins and outs of the industry. This is a fairly unique and well thought out path and I will be sure to incorporate your tips into my career. Thanks alot for the advice, and informing me of TC operators search, I hadn't found that yet. Dont ask me how.Slats wrote:Step 4: Email, voice mail, snail mail, teletype and otherwise alert these operators to your existence and desire to work there. Pester them just enough that they will know who you are but not so much that they begin to wish ill upon you. Once this is done plan a way to get some face time in (search "road trip" on this site). If you get face time, this is good-you're doing it right.
Step 5: Get hired. If you are hired to fly a C-172, C-185, C-206 while also working ramp/dock/dispatch-this is good. You're doing it right.
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