Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Got a hot employment or interview tip to help a fellow aviator find a job or looking for a little job advice place your posting here.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Doc »

And that someone is happy that you're happy there, AUGER9.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Doc on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
AUGER9
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:28 pm
Location: YXL

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by AUGER9 »

Sell what?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by DanWEC »

Lol. For the record I am continuing to look for an actual flying job. If that happens one year from now I can go to a larger operator and actually be hired as a *gasp* pilot. I'm optimistic as I continue North.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Brown Bear
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Brown Bear »

DanWEC wrote:Lol. For the record I am continuing to look for an actual flying job. If that happens one year from now I can go to a larger operator and actually be hired as a *gasp* pilot. I'm optimistic as I continue North.
Companies who hire pilots as ramp staff are simply too cheap to pay local workers a good wage to do a job. They'd rather get some poor pilot who, is willing to "give it my all 18 hours a day......." You see, if a "real" worker worked an 18 hour day, they'd have to be paid a little thing called "overtime". Pilots don't care about "overtime", or indeed the simple fact that being asked to work 18 hour days would probably involve some sort of labour board involvement. Not a pretty thing to behold. Indeed, enslaving poor stupid pilots saves these companies a small fortune. Dan, you spent 30K on your licence. Use it.
PM me.
:bear: :bear:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Brown Bear
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Brown Bear »

AUGER9 wrote: Who cares? It's an opportunity for a low time pilot, with upgrades right around the corner,
I don't know AUGER9, but that sure sounds like you're "selling" something with this remark......just saying
:bear: :bear:
---------- ADS -----------
 
AUGER9
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:28 pm
Location: YXL

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by AUGER9 »

Brown Bear wrote:
AUGER9 wrote: Who cares? It's an opportunity for a low time pilot, with upgrades right around the corner,
I don't know AUGER9, but that sure sounds like you're "selling" something with this remark......just saying
:bear: :bear:
A flying position for a low time, yes. Wasaya, no. I apologize for stating the facts about a company when someone else is purposely giving misinformation about them. No where was I supporting the company or bond. But if that's too much for you than so be it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
caddisman
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:29 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by caddisman »

too cheap to pay local workers a good wage to do a job.
It's YPL. No locals working here. :wink:
---------- ADS -----------
 
esp803

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by esp803 »

IMHO,

I hate the idea of ramp to flying position, and managed to avoid it. However, if you are going to take a ramp position make sure it's somewhere where YOU WANT to live. Also make sure it is above the poverty line somewhere. When you go for interviews, don't just listen to managements promises, ask the the pilots that you see around the office, hangar, bar and see what they have to say.

As for Wasaya vs TWA. I use to fly in NWO and have several friends at Wasaya, from where I was standing it did not seem like the place to ramp for a flying position. Right seat in a Caravan is going to be boring to say the least, and your 1000th trip to KQ3, ZSJ or PV8 will probably drive you to insanity. That being said, I only know one person who went with TWA, and he forces me to watch slide shows of the good times he had in La Ronge... You know who you are

E
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Doc »

edit
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Doc on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
glorifiedtaxidriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:03 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by glorifiedtaxidriver »

Where to begin? Apparently this has become another "bash Wasaya thread" lead by none other than Doc and whoever the sweet f!%k Brown Bear is. Here is the truth. There is a bond. If you don't like it, move on. The reason there is a bond is because less than half of you out there are good for your word. There is no bond for the right seat in the caravan or the right seat in the PC-12. Your second bond is at a reduced rate and there is no bond after those two, or after 3 years employment with the company. I'm not saying I agree with bonds, I'm just telling you the truth. There aren't three bonds. You will not be required to work 18 hours a day. Both are blatant lies. Anyway, things have tightened up recently and they are no longer hiring more ground personal than they can push through to fly. This means no fighting amongst ground guys to see who gets a flying job. It's done by seniority. That's not to say that if your a complete douchebag you won't get bounced though. Most recently the guys have gone from the ground, through the right seat of the caravan (in order to get the number of hours required for certain contracts) through the right seat on the PC-12 and into a captain spot on the caravan within about 18 months. Yes, it is bonded and paid back to you in installments, with interest over the bond period. There it is. If any of you low time guys have any questions, feel free to PM me and I will give you a more in depth answer. All I can say is don't listen to DOC. He's a bitter former employee who takes every advantage to throw stones, has no recent information and doesn't remember what it's like to start out in this industry. I don't know anything about Transwest, so I can't help you there. All I can say, is don't let some retard on the internet tell you what's best for you and what you should and shouldn't do with your career.
Good luck with your job search.

Edited to add pertinent information.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flips
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:38 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Flips »

My only knowledge is of Transwest. I heard today, that the average time spent on the ramp is about 9 months at the moment. I did work there, but that was many moons ago so some things may have changed since my time there. There is no crew housing in LaRonge, PA or Saskatoon. Crew housing is provided in the other northern bases, with varying degrees of quality. I had some great co-workers, but the one thing I noticed is that there were a lot of managers, especially in Saskatoon. A few too many, in some peoples opinions. At LaRonge you have the benefit of some southern comforts as well as a float base, depending on what your pursuits are. I know of a few people that have worked they way up through the fleet up to the Saab. And others who have gone over to WestWind, Courtesy, or others. There are good qualities and bad qualities, as comes with any company. As I said I worked there many years ago, so some of this may have changed. Good luck with your search.

Oh and one thing to note. Don't go down the runway in a wheelchair, as one employee did back in 2007. That will get you fired.
Cadors Number: 2007C1925
---------- ADS -----------
 
Brown Bear
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Brown Bear »

Doc wrote:My thoughts about working the ramp are pretty well known. I know nothing about Transwest. I do know a wee bit about Wasaya. Good equipment. Good pilots. Management is the low end of the totem pole here. !
Doesn't sound like much of a "bash" to me there taxidriver? Sounds like the truth. The guys are fine, the planes are fine, the bosses suck.
Some can do better. Plus.....a company that bonds a pilot not once......but, twice? And then you come on and accuse more than half the pilots of being unable to keep their word? No bond for the right seat of the Caravan, or the PC12....of course not! You're FREIGHT! Then TWO bonds? But, you are correct in advising young pilots not to be guided by "some retard" on the internet. Check your mirror my friend. You're giving poor advice.
Someday I'll get my CPL. If I study really hard, maybe I'll sign two bonds with the same company. Perhaps pigs will fly as well?
Fly safe
:bear: :bear:
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Elessar_44
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:34 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Elessar_44 »

Doc wrote:
Elessar_44 wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you guys....but like Auger, I currently work here. In my ~5 years here I've been in 3 FO seats (208, PC12, 748) and 2 left seats (208 and 1900). I have signed exactly two bonds.

It may have been different in the past, but this is the way it is now.
You've signed two bonds.......at the same company......WHY?

First off, the right seats in the PC12 and C208 are not "bondable". After you had time in the 208, why would they "bond" you for the left seat? I'd be interested in how long you had been there when you were trained in your third "usually" bondable type. More than three years? They may have considered you a "fixture" by then. Your hind legs obviously hadn't developed.
Who would sign a bond, let alone TWO or THREE with the same company?
Just to make it clear....he/she actually coughed up money for this.....TWICE!
To answer your question about my third "bondable" airplane I had been here about 3.5 years I think it was.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Doc »

Okay, I've gone over a bunch of my posts regarding Wasaya. As some of you may know, I've had a few issues in the past with a couple of the management types I had to deal with. I have NEVER had anything but very positive interactions with Wasaya's current or past pilots. The pilots have always been respectful and professional. I've flown with their present Chief Pilot. He was a very nice guy, and someone I enjoyed spending a day in an airplane with. "Bucky" was a crewman when I was there. Really enjoyed my days with him as well. Bottom line? I have absolutely no right to be "bashing" Wasaya. I am stepping down from my position as Chief Wasaya Basher. Honestly, I have no bone to pick with them. Leaving was the best thing that's happened to me in years. I make as much money now as I did as a 748 captain at Wasaya, I work 3-4 days a week, live on the lake, commute 12 kilometres to work, home every night, and take all the time off I want, any time I want. My "freight" walks on and off (no more hand bombing 12000 pounds!) and our passengers are friends.
I will continue to offer only "constructive" advice to low time pilots. If it's a "rat", I'll call it so. But in the case of Wasaya, I'll keep my comments factual.
Fly safe
Doc
---------- ADS -----------
 
Slats
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:35 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Slats »

Brown Bear wrote:Companies who hire pilots as ramp staff are simply too cheap to pay local workers a good wage to do a job. ..... Dan, you spent 30K on your licence. Use it.
:bear: :bear:
While I don't have any info on TW other than what they used to offer float pilots, and I haven't worked for Wasaya for around 8 or 9 years, I DO know this statement is simply not true. There ARE companies that pay a very competitive wage to their low-time pilots who are hired to work the ramp. They also have a very organized schedule, are not forced to work overtime and are paid as such when they choose to. As was pointed out earlier, good luck finding a local in YPL to work the ramp. When I was there, seemed to me the only overtime they were interested in putting in was being passed out under the bushes in front of the LCBO.

You seem like you are smart enough to sift through all the bluster and bullshit and soapboxing and grandstanding occurring here Dan, but I want to address the last part of Mr. Bear's statement. Don't fall into the trap of believing that just because you paid for education and training, that that somehow entitles you to a flying job. The simple fact is, it doesn't. That is obviously the goal, but there are more fresh CPLs out there than entry level flying jobs so the mathematical reality of the situation is that some are going to have to wait. If you can't find a flying job, why not wait somewhere you have a number in the line and an income from working the ramp/dock/dispatch whatever. If you never think you are above hard work and patience to achieve your goals in this industry, you'll probably fare much better and enjoy yourself much more along the way. You and I are entitled to nothing more than what we work for and in my opinion folks like Mr. Bear who continue to foster the notion that buying a license should grant you the keys to the kingdom, do themselves, their fellow aviators and the industry a great disservice.

Dan, I know of some entry level positions that are likely available, but are far from Ontario. PM me if you're interested and best of luck and safe travels on the rest of your trip. Oh, and enjoy it. One day you'll look back on this experience with fond memories.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Brown Bear
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Brown Bear »

Slats wrote:
Brown Bear wrote:Companies who hire pilots as ramp staff are simply too cheap to pay local workers a good wage to do a job. ..... Dan, you spent 30K on your licence. Use it.
:bear: :bear:
While I don't have any info on TW other than what they used to offer float pilots, and I haven't worked for Wasaya for around 8 or 9 years, I DO know this statement is simply not true. There ARE companies that pay a very competitive wage to their low-time pilots who are hired to work the ramp. They also have a very organized schedule, are not forced to work overtime and are paid as such when they choose to. As was pointed out earlier, good luck finding a local in YPL to work the ramp. When I was there, seemed to me the only overtime they were interested in putting in was being passed out under the bushes in front of the LCBO.

You seem like you are smart enough to sift through all the bluster and bullshit and soapboxing and grandstanding occurring here Dan, but I want to address the last part of Mr. Bear's statement. Don't fall into the trap of believing that just because you paid for education and training, that that somehow entitles you to a flying job. The simple fact is, it doesn't. That is obviously the goal, but there are more fresh CPLs out there than entry level flying jobs so the mathematical reality of the situation is that some are going to have to wait. If you can't find a flying job, why not wait somewhere you have a number in the line and an income from working the ramp/dock/dispatch whatever. If you never think you are above hard work and patience to achieve your goals in this industry, you'll probably fare much better and enjoy yourself much more along the way. You and I are entitled to nothing more than what we work for and in my opinion folks like Mr. Bear who continue to foster the notion that buying a license should grant you the keys to the kingdom, do themselves, their fellow aviators and the industry a great disservice.

Dan, I know of some entry level positions that are likely available, but are far from Ontario. PM me if you're interested and best of luck and safe travels on the rest of your trip. Oh, and enjoy it. One day you'll look back on this experience with fond memories.
What you say is true. At least about finding good help in YPL. Now, there's an awful lot of world outside of YPL, isn't there? I've been doing this for a long time. I've seen ramp dudes treated like the lowest forms of humanity. Exceptions being few and far between. Not saying they're all bad.....but beware. Go in with your eyes open. Know your and the company's expectations up front. You are correct. Having a licence does not entitle you to a flying job, any more than have a law degree, or a teacher's certificate entitle you to a....wait a minute....yes they do.
You see Dan, this industry has been brain washed into actually believing nobody can fly an airplane unless they've "paid their dues" working a ramp or a dock. Don't really know who started this misconception? These guys have been pre-programmed to actually think these jobs will make you a better pilot. Granted, some are better than others. But kid yourself not. A good number of these companies will just use you.
:bear: :bear:
---------- ADS -----------
 
flyinthebug
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1686
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
Location: CYPA

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by flyinthebug »

Just for clarity and following Doc`s lead... I was clear in my post that I DO hold some grudges at Wasaya BUT not against one single flight crew member. The CP is indeed a very good guy and id fly with him anytime (or play golf). The HS crews were top shelf. The maintenance is above average as is their equipment considering the routes they fly daily.

My issue with Wasaya was with management not the flight crew or the company itself. I gained some valuable experience there and worked with some awesome people.

Unlike Doc, I dont believe just because you have a licence, you are entitled to a flying job fresh out of school. Would you want a doctor fresh outta school with no experience, to do a heart surgery on you? Of course not...so why would you want a pilot fresh outta school to fly your family around?

I DO believe in ramp (or dock) positions for newbies. Its a perfect opportunity to watch, learn, ask questions, and be involved on a level you can really be an asset to the company. Its the "problem" companies that over work their ground crew for crap money that bothers me, but even that is better than not working at all. I am proud that I convinced management to give raises across the board for rampies. In YRL they went from 10$ an hour to up to 17$ an hour depending on time with the company and position they had (one rampie actually became a loadmaster in his yr before getting a chance to fly and his raise was from 12$ an hour to 17$ an hour). That is the one thing I accomplished at Wasaya.

This topic has been done to death. You could do alot worse than a start at Wasaya airways LP...but then again, you could do alot better too.

If your seeking NW Ont as your place, than Wasaya wouldnt be a bad option. My warning though was real and sincere that senior management there is horrible and as you move up the ladder there, you will see it more and more clearly. Maybe things have changed in the last 5 years and they move rampies to the flight line faster than they used to? When I was there, it was well over a yr wait to the right seat of the caravan. If thats changed, then im happy to hear it.

To ALL the pilots at Wasaya...you guys are all top shelf and I was glad to work with you.
To the Management at Wasaya...get PD back and then you`ll be taking a step in the right direction.

My 2 cents.
Fly safe all.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Bobby868
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:13 am

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Bobby868 »

flyinthebug wrote:Unlike Doc, I dont believe just because you have a licence, you are entitled to a flying job fresh out of school. Would you want a doctor fresh outta school with no experience, to do a heart surgery on you? Of course not...so why would you want a pilot fresh outta school to fly your family around?
No wonder our profession is in a spiraling nose dive straight into the ground. It’s one thing to say you believe in the ramp / doc / slave labor concept. It’s completely another to tell potential pilots this is how it’s done in other respected professions. IT IS NOT!

When a doctor interns in a hospital they work as a doctor, on people, while under the supervision of a senior doctor. This is the equivalent of being a co-pilot.

I’ll buy unlimited beer for an entire night for the person who can produce one documented case of an intern doctor who’s primary work description is to do janitorial work, be warehouse attendant, gas up the ambulance, etc.

Doctors, whether interns or newly licensed work as doctors not as labours!

As far as Wasaya goes if Bucky is now CP and Donny is no longer in the CP position then perhaps there is hope for improvement. If there is any truth to the notion that half of the Wasaya pilots leave after getting their PPC then this says more about the company than the pilots. To walk away from a $10,000 bond hurts and no pilot is going to leave that cash on the table unless they have serious misgivings about working for a company. There are plenty of quality companies that have no bonds at all and have much lower turnover. I would even go so far as to suggest that based on the amount of Wasaya job postings that I see on this board that maybe Wasaya is making a bit of cash off each pilot that revolves through the door or at the very least could care or less and has no motivation to try and work with pilots to keep them happy and provide quality training.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Bobby868 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Doc
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 9241
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:28 am

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Doc »

Bobby868 wrote:
No wonder our profession is in a spiraling nose dive straight into the ground. It’s one thing to say you believe in the ramp / doc / slave labor concept. It’s completely another to tell potential pilots this is how it’s done in other respected professions. ITS NOT!

When a doctor interns in a hospital they work as a doctor, on people, while under the supervision of a senior doctor. This is the equivalent of being a co-pilot.

I’ll buy unlimited beer for an entire night for the person who can produce one documented case of an intern doctor who’s primary work description is to do janitorial work, be warehouse attendant, gas up the ambulance, etc.

Doctors, whether interns or newly licensed work as doctors not as labours!
You are absolutely correct. I refuse to bash Wasaya any more, but other "professions" do NOT enslave their employees with this system. I'll join you when you find that "documented" case, and chip in on the beer. My wife is a teacher. After Teacher's College, she became....wait for it.....wait for it.....a TEACHER! The school board did not have the new teachers spend a year sweeping the floors......they put them in classrooms. What a concept! Hiring people to DO the job, for which they were trained!
---------- ADS -----------
 
glorifiedtaxidriver
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:03 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by glorifiedtaxidriver »

I still have to shake my head. Those of us who have accomplished what we wanted to accomplish in this career choice have no right to stand on a pedestal and judge those coming up the ladder behind us. You have a good career Doc, but don't stand there and tell these kids that are trying to make in in this business that they're somehow lesser human beings for making a choice to work at a particular company, or start on the ground. Not everyone has the luxury of choice. I remember being on my first job hunt. I think it was at least 6 months before I found a position, and it was working on the dock. I felt pretty bad for a while there. Here I was, out of school, deeply in debt, left with the choice of bartending or working the dock to pay my student loans. I chose to stay in the industry and work the dock. Do I think I'm less of a pilot for not flying right away? No, of course not. You might, but to be honest, I don't give a rats ass what you think, because you're some random guy on the internet. The point is, you can't judge someone without walking in their shoes.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1330
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

glorifiedtaxidriver wrote:I still have to shake my head. Those of us who have accomplished what we wanted to accomplish in this career choice have no right to stand on a pedestal and judge those coming up the ladder behind us. You have a good career Doc, but don't stand there and tell these kids that are trying to make in in this business that they're somehow lesser human beings for making a choice to work at a particular company, or start on the ground. Not everyone has the luxury of choice. I remember being on my first job hunt. I think it was at least 6 months before I found a position, and it was working on the dock. I felt pretty bad for a while there. Here I was, out of school, deeply in debt, left with the choice of bartending or working the dock to pay my student loans. I chose to stay in the industry and work the dock. Do I think I'm less of a pilot for not flying right away? No, of course not. You might, but to be honest, I don't give a rats ass what you think, because you're some random guy on the internet. The point is, you can't judge someone without walking in their shoes.
I don't think Doc is saying that you are less of a human being for going this way, he is just trying to make the point that working the dock/office/ramp is only the norm because we as pilots allow it to be that way. As he says, other industries don't work that way, because the employees in those industries wont accept those conditions. It is too late for those of us with experience to change the way we got our starts, but if we can stop new employees from accepting sub par conditions and bonds, then maybe we can make the industry better overall for those that follow in our footsteps. I can't say that I blame companies for hiring prospective pilots to work the ramp, and paying them a salary at or below minimum wage; it makes good business sense but that doesn't mean it is right. I have never worked a day on the ramp, nor will I, because I am not a ramp hand, I'm a pilot. Some of you may take that to mean that I have some feelings of self entitlement, which I don't. I am more than willing to go help load someone else's plane or whatever, but I am not doing that because its my job, solely to help some other pilot do his or her job.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Diadem »

It's not really appropriate to compare pilots to doctors or teachers, which have chronic staffing shortages; I've never heard of a hospital that had to turn away doctors. I think a much better analogy would be actors: there are lots more of them than there are jobs, and a lot of them won't ever find work. Does that mean they should refuse to work as waiters on principle, just because they paid for some acting lessons and consider themselves professionals? Since the recession began, there have been exorbitant numbers of university grads unable to find work in their specific fields of training, and their options have been to go on welfare or take lower-paying jobs to support themselves until the economy improves and they can get on with their careers. Wouldn't it make sense for someone with a marketing degree to get a job as a janitor in a marketing firm and hope to make some contacts, rather than sitting in a coffee shop sipping an espresso and scoffing at the thought of making a living doing anything other than that for which they trained? I worked at an airport before I became a pilot, and if I had to find a non-flying job after I was licenced to pay the bills I would have kept working at an airport, both because I enjoyed it and because I didn't have any other marketable skills. If I was there anyway, why shouldn't I have taken a job that eventually led to a flying position? I was lucky to have any shot at a cockpit at all, and not all of us are so fortunate that we can go straight from flight school to a flying job. There just aren't enough positions available for low-time pilots, and if the options are working the ramp to make a living, working another job outside of aviation that pays the same, or sitting back on welfare looking down my nose at all the other low-timers because "I'm a pilot, and I'll only work as a pilot", then I know what I'd choose.
---------- ADS -----------
 
+TSRAGR
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:34 pm

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by +TSRAGR »

Consider this:

Upon arrival at Blackfly Air you sit down and discuss employment with the Chief Pilot. You are a "professional" pilot. Having spent $50,000. and worked hard for several years you now have MIFR and floats. You have scoured the country on your road trip and really want this job.

You are only willing to consider a flying position because you are not a dockhand, you are a pilot right?

The Chief says O.K., your hired. Ground school for the beaver starts tommorrow at 7 AM.

You walk to your car in disbelief. After the initial shock wears off you ask yourself "can I really do this?". The answer is probably not. Would you really want to? Probably not.

The operator of the Beaver is of course expected to provide a certain amount of training to familiarize an experienced pilot with a new aircraft type and confirm that the pilot is proficient. The operator is not however a flight training unit and should not be expected to provide the amount of training that you would require to safely do the job.

Prior to handing over the Beaver to you the operator might wish to evaluate your abilities and judgement and see that you can perform less complicated tasks. They may also wish to ensure that you know how to load, unload and secure cargo and provide good customer service. He knows that you do not know these things and a thousand others but he may be willing to teach you. The trade off is that you will have to pay your way by doing other tasks that need to be done. They could be done by non aviation types for non aviation wages. That is what you will receive. This is a sort of apprenticeship that will teach you things that will serve you well throughout your career. When and if you are ready the operator will let you loose with the half million dollar Beaver.

The point is that you are not in fact quite as professional as you may believe. 220 hours and a commercial qualifies you for an apprenticeship and little more. You are not a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant. You are a pilot. The job is unique and should not be compared to other "professionals". Doctors for example do not have to prepare the patient for surgery or clean up the mess when they are finished. They do not have to maintain their equipment. They are not generally required to work with little or no support or supervision in remote locations under constantly changing conditions. Their initial training is far more comprehensive and takes much longer. Accountants and lawyers must article for shit wages and work hours that are ridiculous. Such is life.

Many will disagree but this is my opinion.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rowdy
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5166
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by Rowdy »

+TSRAGR wrote:Consider this:

Upon arrival at Blackfly Air you sit down and discuss employment with the Chief Pilot. You are a "professional" pilot. Having spent $50,000. and worked hard for several years you now have MIFR and floats. You have scoured the country on your road trip and really want this job.

You are only willing to consider a flying position because you are not a dockhand, you are a pilot right?

The Chief says O.K., your hired. Ground school for the beaver starts tommorrow at 7 AM.

You walk to your car in disbelief. After the initial shock wears off you ask yourself "can I really do this?". The answer is probably not. Would you really want to? Probably not.

The operator of the Beaver is of course expected to provide a certain amount of training to familiarize an experienced pilot with a new aircraft type and confirm that the pilot is proficient. The operator is not however a flight training unit and should not be expected to provide the amount of training that you would require to safely do the job.

Prior to handing over the Beaver to you the operator might wish to evaluate your abilities and judgement and see that you can perform less complicated tasks. They may also wish to ensure that you know how to load, unload and secure cargo and provide good customer service. He knows that you do not know these things and a thousand others but he may be willing to teach you. The trade off is that you will have to pay your way by doing other tasks that need to be done. They could be done by non aviation types for non aviation wages. That is what you will receive. This is a sort of apprenticeship that will teach you things that will serve you well throughout your career. When and if you are ready the operator will let you loose with the half million dollar Beaver.

The point is that you are not in fact quite as professional as you may believe. 220 hours and a commercial qualifies you for an apprenticeship and little more. You are not a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant. You are a pilot. The job is unique and should not be compared to other "professionals". Doctors for example do not have to prepare the patient for surgery or clean up the mess when they are finished. They do not have to maintain their equipment. They are not generally required to work with little or no support or supervision in remote locations under constantly changing conditions. Their initial training is far more comprehensive and takes much longer. Accountants and lawyers must article for shit wages and work hours that are ridiculous. Such is life.

Many will disagree but this is my opinion.
Solely an opinion. First off, a beaver is most certainly easier to fly than say the 180 (and definitely doesn't cost half a mil.. closer to 250-300k.. but thats just semantics) you got a float endorsement on . Sure it can be a handful under the wrong conditions, but thats what a proper apprenticeship should be for. Or better yet, more stringent training requirements for a float endorsement and subsequently for the PCC on float equipped machines. How can sitting on the dock loading and unloading teach you ANYTHING about the handling of the machine in high winds, beaching, rivers, swell etc? It can't.. You can only really listen to what the clown in the machine with only a few hundred hours more than you have will tell you in BS stories. How is this any relation to an apprenticeship. Certainly a lawyer or doctor doesn't wash the bathroom or clean up the owners truck or mow the lawn while they intern and article. They are RIGHT IN THERE under the supervision of an experienced and licensed doctor or lawyer, doing the tasks at which they have been trained for. Certainly the conditions aren't as great nor the pay as they will eventually be, but they are far from miserable. The same SHOULD be applied in aviation.

The concern here is not the fact that guys are being forced into going on to the dock or ramp before a flying position.. the concern is that MANY employers use this as a way to dangle the carrot and cut the costs of operating by paying far less to someone who is incredibly eager to get into the seat and then NOT putting them into a seat. They are essentially abusing the system and the freshly minted pilots. If this were to be a proper mentoring or apprenticeship type position, then perhaps the 'new' pilot should be checked out right after hire and ride along as a swamper and have a timeline properly set out at the time of hire, assuming all works out, that they should see the seat. Instead of just 'ohh well you know, it could be anywhere from 9 to 20 months.. joe over there got a seat in 5.. but that was a few years ago' bullshit. The operator I got my start with did this and I'm very thankful for it. You're hired as a dockhand and 'future' pilot. You get checked out this first week and then catch flights every week under proper conditions and are mentored to a point at which you can be cut loose day to day. Sure it involves a little more oversight from the CP and training pilots.. but thats what they're there for right?

But again.. what do I know? I'm just a guy who flies planes for money.
---------- ADS -----------
 
flyinthebug
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1686
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
Location: CYPA

Re: Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

Post by flyinthebug »

Rowdy... I completely agree that the DHC2 is one of the easier float planes to fly. I also agree that swamping is a GREAT way to learn about the issues you mentioned. What I dont agree with is that you cant learn anything working on the dock/ramp. If you observe the guys docking their planes, you will see where they make their mistakes and how they handle winds etc. If you load a plane, you learn how to load it, how to tie down loads and several other things as well.

When I was in charge of all hiring, I hired pilots to be pilots. The 250 hour guys/gals we hired were always checked out (PCC) right seat in the PA31-310/350 and yes we asked them to pull some panels and assist when there was a 50 hour inspection. What better way to learn your aircraft than pulling panels and seeing whats inside and what makes things work? Most of the pilots I hired enjoyed assisting in our AMO (under the watchful eye of the DOM or AME) and several commented that they believed they became better pilots for having the opportunity to crawl through the plane and see what makes it tick.

I am against slave labour practices period. I was unfortunately a Base Manager for a company that did abuse the rampie program and used them for cheap labour and dangled the carrot infront of their noses. I watched pilots sit in dispatch for over a year and hadnt had a single ride in a plane yet. I only stayed there 7 months and moved on.

Although I do believe there are benefits to working in a ground position fresh out of school, I do not condone using pilots as labourers and never have I been a part of doing so. The pilots I hired always got their check ride in the first 30-60 days and whenever there was a trip, they got to go along and start learning from the Capt. In the float world, swamping is almost the same idea...although they dont have an actual PCC so it becomes a grey area as to whether they can even log the time right seat in a DHC3 or whatever.

Using a doctor as a senario was maybe not an ideal example of what I was trying to say, but every profession has their ladder to climb and dues to pay before they achieve their goals. Aviation is no different and in a time when supply out weighs demand, this is the only way some will get started. My advice is not to be afraid to take a ground position, but talk to the CP and ask when you can expect to be checked out and if they dont honour their side of the bargain, you can always walk away.

I still believe that working the ramp/dock is a good way to get started...especially if you are checked out and get to fly once in awhile..until you are competent enough to take it on your own. You have to remember that sometimes our hands our tied by the insurance companies and this is moreso true in the float world then the IFR world. My insurance company allowed me to hire 250 hr pilots as co-pilots (IFR).. but they wouldnt insure them as Captains until they had 1000 hours TT...and with the assumption that you have learned alot from sitting right seat for 700-800 hours with a qualified Skipper in the left seat. Kinda like a beginners drivers licence if you will.

My 2 cents more.
Fly safe all.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Employment Forum”