Clean aircraft Concept

[shamrock104]

Was a passenger on a Commercial airliner between Ontario and Calgary early this morning. The weather conditions included freezing rain and fog. I was seated next to the wing and noticed a ground crew member inspecting the upper surface of the wing (hand or feel test). No de-icing was completed. During the takeoff roll I noticed what at first I believed was rain or loose snow falling off the wing area and soon realised that this was in fact sheets of clear ice. On seeing this I was surprised that this hadnt been cleared prior to taxiing out. Can anyone advise if this is the norm or even permitted as the Clean aircraft concept is always being drilled to Pilots of all experience levels?

[sanjet]

How sure were you about it being clear ice and not just water pouring off. Depending on what aircraft, certain models to have exemptions to allow a certain amount of accumulation (very minute but allowed nonetheless) on a part of the wing due to cold soak. I understand that you wont name the aircraft or airline, knowing what can happen on this forum, but I can assure you a lot more input from pilots is put in then just letting a qualified person decide when to deice. Also, maybe part of the fuselage may have had some thin clear ice and may have slipped off during take off, which is also acceptable on most aircraft (except the tri-engines).

[shamrock104]

Thanks Sanjet,
it was definitely clear ice, it was snapping off and of course flying rearward off the wing during the take off roll. This was apparent as it was snapping off in segments. I am not out to point fingers, it was more of a curiosity thing as like I mentioned this particular thing is drilled into every pilot throughout their flying career. Definitely from the top surface of the wing.

[FICU]

Not the norm, not legal, and the finger nail test would have been prudent in the nose conditions.

[shamrock104]

Thats what I thought. Will be contacting the airline concerned.

[sanjet]

Please keep us posted if you get a response. Would definitely be interested, keeping the names omitted ofcourse.

[shamrock104]

will do

[gonnabeapilot]

It may not have been prudent but I don't know if I would go so far as to say what happened wasn't legal. A member of the operator's ground crew can be certified to perform a tactile inspection to determine whether or not the aircraft is clear of contamination. The ground crew member was probably performing the inspection you saw at the request of the Captain as the Captain probably wasn't able to adequately determine if the wing was clean by inspecting it through the windows. If the ground crew member ran their hand along the wing and determined that the wing was clean, de-icing would not be required. The use of Type IV fluid to ensure anti-icing may have been the right move in freezing fog however if the visibility was reasonable and the pilot did not see any signs or symptoms of ice forming on the aircraft they would probably have believed that the aircraft was still in the same 'clean' state it had been in when the tactile inspection was performed and therefore they were legal and safe to perform the take-off.

[FICU]

In those ground icing conditions I would think it prudent for the Captain to do the tactile inspection him or herself so they know for sure what the condition of the wing surface is prior to push back.

Wiping a gloved hand on smooth clear ice won't tell you the story if that happens to be the case. I do agree that there would be leeway given to the PIC because a trained ground crew member did the inspection but it would still be illegal to depart with ice on the wings.

[Tiny Tyke]

Actually, if it all blew off on the take off roll as described above, then it wasn't "adhering to the wing." Kind of like light fluffy snow on a cold wing. Not adhering.

Still would be better if the crew deiced, but I think we have to draw a reasonable line with respect to due diligence being completed. In this case the ground crew inspected the aircraft.

Perhaps some of the old-timers can chime in here for the younger folks about the history of deicing large aircraft.

[Rockie]

Ice accumulated on top of the wing is never permitted and must be removed before flight. The fact some of it sheared off during the takeoff roll does not mean it wasn't adhering, since unlike dry snow on a cold wing there's no way to tell before flight if any or all of it even will shear off. As well there is an increased likelihood of ice damaging the tail upon impact unlike dry snow.

The 737's at Westjet are certified to takeoff with a very limited amount of frost on the top of the wing due to cold soaked fuel, but the depth is limited to 1/8 of an inch within a clearly defined area. The temperature must also be above freezing and no other contaminants falling. They are the only Canadian airplane and carrier that I know of with this approval (although Sunwing and Canjet might as well) but it certainly does not apply to this case.

The original poster mentioned freezing rain and fog conditions. In those circumstances any rational crew is going to get deiced and anti-iced with type 4 in accordance with the air regulations and company procedures. If clear ice did accumulate and subsequently shed during the takeoff roll I can only suggest that a potentially serious human error may have been made.

[Biff]

Actually, if it all blew off on the take off roll as described above, then it wasn't "adhering to the wing." Kind of like light fluffy snow on a cold wing. Not adhering.

I would assume that if there was clear ice which wasn't found on the pre-flight, it would most likely be coming off due to the flex of the wing as the airspeed increases and lift is starting to be produced. If you flex a sheet of ice, it will break into chunks much like the OP stated he saw. So in a case like this, yes it would have being adhering to the wing until the wing started to flex.

Clear ice on a wing is often a difficult condition to see from the inside, thus the importance of a tactile inspection, which sounds like was accomplished. Unfortunately in this case, from the OP's description, it appears that the tactile inspection missed the possible contamination.

[proper]

deice fail

[fish4life]

its so weird sometimes you will see planes getting de-iced when the only conditions is the fact that the sky is cloudy yet you hear of instances like this and it makes you wish there was a nice middle ground

[FICU]

its so weird sometimes you will see planes getting de-iced when the only conditions is the fact that the sky is cloudy yet you hear of instances like this and it makes you wish there was a nice middle ground

Frost on the wings due to cold soaking of the fuel tanks after an arrival or frost forming on the wings after a cold clear night sitting on the ground are the 2 main reasons you see aircraft being de-iced when there are no ground icing conditions or precip falling.

[Tiny Tyke]

Sorry guys, over-did-it in the first post. My point was that the aircraft was inspected by the ground crew. I see a lot of people trying to point a negative deice finger on here and I think we need some balance. Didn't read the first post carefully enough regarding FZRA etc.... Obviously the aircraft should have been deiced if ice came flying off on departure.

I think the proper thing to do post flight is to mention it to the crew if you feel you have a valid concern. Otherwise they'll never learn from their mistakes. Emailing the customer service department is unlikely to achieve positive results for those pilots in the future w.r.t de-icing.

[Takeoff OK]

Sorry guys, over-did-it in the first post. My point was that the aircraft was inspected by the ground crew. I see a lot of people trying to point a negative deice finger on here and I think we need some balance. Didn't read the first post carefully enough regarding FZRA etc.... Obviously the aircraft should have been deiced if ice came flying off on departure.

I think the proper thing to do post flight is to mention it to the crew if you feel you have a valid concern. Otherwise they'll never learn from their mistakes. Emailing the customer service department is unlikely to achieve positive results for those pilots in the future w.r.t de-icing.

Nope, the correct thing is to nail their asses to the wall. If everything about the original post is correct, they took off with wings completely covered by clear ice. How much weight do you think that added to the ATOW? What was the loading situation? Were they close to MTOW? Were they close to aft or fwd limits on CG? There is no way to tell; only they knew and there's no way you'll ever find out. But what do you care, right? You're just the passenger that pays their wage. It's not like your life is on the line... I've seen enough idiots trying to save time/money/pride??? avoiding deicing. Unacceptable. Winter blocking (if your company has any clue whatsoever) accounts for time in the bay, so going to get cleaned is not likely to result in a delayed arrival. Regardless, while there may have been a tactile inspection prior to push, the fact that FZRA and/or FZFG was reported means you pull out your tables and go get sprayed. Period. If you don't, then you have absolutely no place in the front of that aircraft. There is no grey area on this.

What airline was it? I think this deserves some exposure.

[Takeoff OK]

One more thing:

If you're one of these cowboys avoiding the bay to get out early, and I happen to be the guy behind you in line for take-off, I'm going to wait until you're #1 and then call you on tower to tell you you're covered with frost. Hopefully this happens out of LGA or EWR or ORD or LHR or CDG or AMS, after you've waited 45 minutes to get to the runway...

You don't save anything by avoiding getting sprayed.

[sanjet]

Nope, the correct thing is to nail their asses to the wall. If everything about the original post is correct, they took off with wings completely covered by clear ice. How much weight do you think that added to the ATOW? What was the loading situation? Were they close to MTOW? Were they close to aft or fwd limits on CG? There is no way to tell; only they knew and there's no way you'll ever find out. But what do you care, right? You're just the passenger that pays their wage. It's not like your life is on the line... I've seen enough idiots trying to save time/money/pride??? avoiding deicing. Unacceptable. Winter blocking (if your company has any clue whatsoever) accounts for time in the bay, so going to get cleaned is not likely to result in a delayed arrival. Regardless, while there may have been a tactile inspection prior to push, the fact that FZRA and/or FZFG was reported means you pull out your tables and go get sprayed. Period. If you don't, then you have absolutely no place in the front of that aircraft. There is no grey area on this.

What airline was it? I think this deserves some exposure.

Nail their asses to the wall?!!? Really?!?
As a pilot in command that was in doubt about his clean wing situation, he asked a qualified person to inspect the wing. They inspected and advised the pilots that the wing was clean and departed. I believe there's no mention FZRA or FG. Hardly would call this cowboy attitude. We've all learned lessons from passed accidents in this industry but as for going to the de-ice bay regardless of weather, I think we all need to use a little logic when flying these machines. Getting sprayed for nothing does cost money/time in an industry when those two are rare. Again, I am not advocating taking off with a dirty wing, just use a little logic!

[palm90]

what was Westjets responce?

[KAG]

Was a passenger on a Commercial airliner between Ontario and Calgary early this morning. The weather conditions included freezing rain and fog. I was seated next to the wing and noticed a ground crew member inspecting the upper surface of the wing (hand or feel test). No de-icing was completed. During the takeoff roll I noticed what at first I believed was rain or loose snow falling off the wing area and soon realised that this was in fact sheets of clear ice. On seeing this I was surprised that this hadnt been cleared prior to taxiing out. Can anyone advise if this is the norm or even permitted as the Clean aircraft concept is always being drilled to Pilots of all experience levels?

I find this story as written hard to believe. FZRA, a tactile inspection and they departed without deicing? Sorry something doesn't add up. Either the conditions changed from that inspection to rotation or the tactile showed a clean leading edge but they missed the ice further back (which frankly I don't see). I'm sorry but I don't see any flight crew from a major Canadian Airline willfully not deicing, especially as some would like to think, Westjet. The CREW would be up for some serious repercussions if this were the case.

[shamrock104]

Sorry to the guys who are suggesting certain airlines on a public forum, I will not post this information. My intention is not to finger point but to point out a "safety issue" or concern. KAG please check your e mail.

[jjj]

what was Westjets responce?

Westjet's response is... learn to write.

[bverwegen]

The Russians embrace the concept!

[Bede]

Nope, the correct thing is to nail their asses to the wall. If everything about the original post is correct, they took off with wings completely covered by clear ice. How much weight do you think that added to the ATOW? What was the loading situation? Were they close to MTOW? Were they close to aft or fwd limits on CG?

You clearly do not understand the dangers of contaminated surfaces.

Let's assume there's 1/4" of clear ice distributed evenly on the wing of an A320. That would add about 1700# to the weight of the aircraft which is negligible.