CanadianEh wrote:The best way to make more money seems to be by having a Southwest/Westjet model of airline. Southwest pilots are some of the best paid pilots in the world for the equipment they fly. A 12-year 737 captain at Southwest gets paid about $50 an hour more than an American Airline 737 captain. It all comes down to having good management, a solid business plan and a strong corporate culture
It would be interesting to see/hear what the CEO and his/her senior executive team compensation package would be with the successful business model at Southwest against the same for the not so successful model at Air Canada. I understand the top echelon at AC are very well compensated
CanadianEh wrote:The best way to make more money seems to be by having a Southwest/Westjet model of airline. Southwest pilots are some of the best paid pilots in the world for the equipment they fly. A 12-year 737 captain at Southwest gets paid about $50 an hour more than an American Airline 737 captain. It all comes down to having good management, a solid business plan and a strong corporate culture
It would be interesting to see/hear what the CEO and his/her senior executive team compensation package would be with the successful business model at Southwest against the same for the not so successful model at Air Canada. I understand the top echelon at AC are very well compensated
CR's package is quoted at something under 5 mil. If you spread that over 26,000 employees it works out to something like 14 bucks per month per gainfully employed head, if you want to frame it that way, a ridiculously paltry sum that is vastly less than the union dues we pay to tell Parliament we're at the top of the income and pensions pyramid. Fourteen measly bucks is our fee to keep a job that has already had MANY reasons to be tanked, liquidated, and re-born with a different paint scheme as an entirely different brand under a set of rules you DEFINITELY would not like.
CanadianEh wrote:The best way to make more money seems to be by having a Southwest/Westjet model of airline.
Flying a single type will always be far cheaper than running a big hub-and-spoke, but limits the size of your network.
So you have to ask, would rather have a few highly paid jobs at a small airline or a lot of decent paid jobs at a large airline.
Southwest has a fleet of over 500 aircraft, I don't consider that small. Westjet has nearly 100 with more on the order books.
The vision that I see for Air Canada is competing in the premium traffic market. There are lots of Americans who travel through YYZ because of the premium class product that Air Canada offers vs. the U.S. carriers. Trying to introduce a low cost carrier will not work (like the last 2 times they tried) because structurally does not make sense. Why would they even try to compete in a market with such razor thin margins anyway? It seems like an attempt just to try and lower the bar on wages to "be competitive", it will never work.
CanadianEh wrote:The best way to make more money seems to be by having a Southwest/Westjet model of airline.
Flying a single type will always be far cheaper than running a big hub-and-spoke, but limits the size of your network.
So you have to ask, would rather have a few highly paid jobs at a small airline or a lot of decent paid jobs at a large airline.
Southwest has a fleet of over 500 aircraft, I don't consider that small. Westjet has nearly 100 with more on the order books.
The vision that I see for Air Canada is competing in the premium traffic market. There are lots of Americans who travel through YYZ because of the premium class product that Air Canada offers vs. the U.S. carriers. Trying to introduce a low cost carrier will not work (like the last 2 times they tried) because structurally does not make sense. Why would they even try to compete in a market with such razor thin margins anyway? It seems like an attempt just to try and lower the bar on wages to "be competitive", it will never work.
First of all, the twenty premium seats in the front don't pay for the 120 empty seats in the back. You're in a high pay grade, or so we told Parliament, so when you go to Mexico do you seek out the expensive fare? The Canadian market isn't big enough to support a boutique airline that has 26,000 employees.
Right now the competition is on a march. When they hit 51 percent of the domestic market share, WestJet and partners will create more utter CHAOS in your life than you could have ever possibly imagined. They’re on the Up Escalator and we’re on the Down Escalator. Don’t forget the stiff upper lip when we pass going in opposite directions at 50 percent. And watch your step getting off in the basement.
The Court of Public Opinion decides how many passengers ride behind the back of your head and how much freight there is riding under the seat of your pants. Without those two prime elements, this outfit is gone. The comments sections of all the recent articles in the Globe and Mail spell the verdict out loud and clear. The public is fed up with it and the Prime Minister sounds like he's sick and tired of holding hands with our very public gong show.
Right now the public figures they could brand an I.Q on our foreheads with 2 digits and they definitely won't be inviting us to Mensa meetings anytime soon.
One way or another there will be a shift in operations, and if there isn't, another trip to CCAA will be like shooting the rapids in a lead suit.
CanadianEh wrote:Southwest has a fleet of over 500 aircraft, I don't consider that small. Westjet has nearly 100 with more on the order books.
United serves 371 destinations vs. 97 for Southwest. Air Canada is 178 vs. 71 for WestJet, who has basically admitted they have run out of places to fly 737s. The LCC approach is buy a plane and find a market, the network approach is find a market and buy a plane for it. Legacy carriers do business the old school way, and this dynamic isn't limited to airlines:
Take a look at the number of brands and models GM has compared to a company like Honda or Porsche or Toyota. The General just goes after every market and niche and then within those allows you to customize any door handle or axle ratio you fancy. If you want a Civic, you buy the ones they make or you pound sand. Take a look at how many iPhones Apple sells that are all identical. They don't do a BlackBerry and try to sell phones in every configuration and price point. You buy the product they make or you can pound sand. WestJet flies 737s. You can fly from and to locations where they have 737 service, or you can pound sand. But now WestJet is so big they have to come out with a new service to continue to grow; 20 years from now WestJet and AC (or whatever replaces AC) will look the same. The bigger and older the business gets, the more driven they are to try to reach every man, woman, child and dog in the market.
accumulous wrote:The Canadian market isn't big enough to support a boutique airline that has 26,000 employees.
This. Air Canada is scaled to have a monopoly. The more market share you continue to lose, the more expensive your product becomes, which causes you to lose even more market share. This is how the auto makers collapsed as well as the legacy carriers in the U.S., and it's what's happening to you right now. You either have to bring costs down, or start sending aircraft back and people home.
Why are you so interested in the internal business of Air Canada , other than being a troll.
Worry about your own house.
First , you have foreign pilots operating a 757 from Calgary to Honolulu on behalf of Westjet.
What route is next. Keep getting that cheap European labour as their economy is in the tank for a long time.
Oh ya, there is Westjet Regional. Westjet pilots are angry, and complain , but cannot say anything as they have no protection. They fear for their jobs. Oh ya, 91 percent voted for it, good luck on your Calgary to Brandon run. You could really use some Air Canada travel website info with this venture.
The days of 1000 hour years will be gone. The new rest limitations will be coming , in line with the United States . But will be handled by your new regional airline . The low cost regional will be able to take care of that Vancouver turn from Calgary.
Flica will be great as a Q400 will do that dropped flying for you. Those 1.5 per hour overtime days will dry up, and pilots will be livid.
And then you have your mainline FAs bragging to the regional FAs on how they use to slum it in Grande Prairie , but now do their long Cancun layovers. I have seen it all my friend. History repeats itself. The regional employees will soon resent you. I have heard they were pondering one list for the pilots. You will pay for this blunder not to do this.
You have become Alaska Airlines. Gee wizz, did your CEO not come from there? I know he was gunning for the big job there but could not get it as he was a Canadian. His brother works for Air Canada.
Fancy that, that is what we are trying to do, is protect Canadian jobs as they were protecting coveted American jobs.
Oh wait, the new runway that is started in Calgary will be the right length for an Emirates A380 , whom you just signed an agreement with. Only if Emirates can get landing rights there. Just wait, it will happen. I guarantee it.
Honestly, check out how Emirates destroyed the airline industry in Australia.
Your agreement with Delta will prevent any sort of widebody growth. Good luck with the 787.
Stupid industry.
There could be a meger of Westjet and Air Canada some day, who knows ?
The industry changes every 10 years.
Fly safe, because ultimately that is what it is all about.
Good luck
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Last edited by mel gibson on Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
From what I hear and with past experience, Air Canada provides top notch first rate service on it's international routes and it's market share is/will be solid in this particular segment.
Tom Walkom Mon Mar 12 2012 1 Recommend
Ottawa abuses the law through Air Canada intervention
The federal government’s decision to forestall another Air Canada strike will play well with the travelling public.
March break is on. A planned strike by Air Canada baggage handlers and machinists would have disrupted many a vacation.
But at the same time, the decision — nominally made by Labour Minister Lisa Raitt — is a clear abuse of the law.
Raitt took advantage of a section in the Canada Labour Code designed “to prevent an immediate and serious danger to the safety and health of the public.”
That section gives Ottawa the right to have a federal tribunal determine which, if any, services affected by a proposed labour disruption are essential.
The very act of making such a request prevents workers from striking and employers from imposing a lockout.
This part of the law is usually interpreted in a sensible fashion. It’s been used, for instance, to limit strikes affecting ferry service to Newfoundland.
But over the past year, in a series of labour disputes involving Air Canada, Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s Conservative government has stretched the law to breathtaking extremes.
In October, Raitt used the health and safety wheeze to head off a planned strike by 6,800 Air Canada flight attendants. She did the same this past week to prevent a planned strike by 8,600 baggage handlers and mechanics.
Crafty Air Canada also managed to get its disgruntled pilots into the mix by suddenly announcing its plans to lock them out effective Monday.
True to form, Raitt rolled the company’s 3,000 pilots into her dubious health and safety order, thus ensuring that, even if they want to, they can’t exercise their legal right to strike.
How would a strike by private carrier Air Canada endanger health and safety? Raitt was asked that question Thursday. She didn’t have much of an answer.
“Air Canada can carry some cargo that is related to the health industry, related to pharmaceuticals, and certainly those kinds of things related to remote communities that, simply put, nobody else flies to because Air Canada has jurisdictional responsibility to fly to certain remote areas,” Raitt told CBC.
In fact, Air Canada is not the only option. Bigger centres are served by other airlines, like WestJet. Most places in Canada are accessible by rail or road.
As for remote areas, Raitt is simply wrong. Air Canada flies into few isolated communities. Settlements like Attawapiskat on Ontario’s Hudson Bay coast rely on Air Creebec. In the Arctic, where First Air is a dominant player, Air Canada does little.
But then health and safety is just the latest excuse. When the Harper government first began interfering in Air Canada labour disputes last June, Raitt cited “the economy.” That was her justification for threatening back-to-work legislation that would have prevented a looming strike by customer service agents.
Given that Air Canada almost certainly could have kept flying during a strike by non-essential ground staff, that reason was truly ludicrous.
The Conservatives have long been good friends to privately owned Air Canada. In 2010, they refused to let the national airline of the United Arab Emirates compete with Air Canada on key international routes. Even when the U.A.E. responded by expelling Canadian troops from what had been their forward operating base for the Afghan war, Ottawa wouldn’t budge.
Such constancy in love may be admirable. But surely it would be better if Harper were more open about his ardour for this particular company.
He could, for instance, have compliant Conservative MPs pass a new Air Canada Workers Must Always Accept Lower Wages law. That would at least avoid the health and safety farce.
***** COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE POST A LIST OF THE "CERTAIN REMOTE AREAS" THAT LISA RAITT IS TALKING ABOUT? *****
55+ wrote:From what I hear and with past experience, Air Canada provides top notch first rate service on it's international routes and it's market share is/will be solid in this particular segment.
Here's an anecdote from just watching passenger check-in line-ups at the 2nd busiest airport in Canada. Just to put in perspective how broad that statement is.
There are tumbleweeds blowing through the transborder terminal. Majority of traffic is inbound connections from Canadian airports without proximity to a US Airport, because if a US airport is close nobody can compete.
Flying to Mexico/Cuba/Jamaica/Sun, it would appear they can't compete with WS Vacations/Air Transat/Sunwing. On average they send less than half the capacity of the others, and it isn't busy.
That leaves Asia & Europe, which I would say doesn't appear to have changed 10 years. But it's far away from 'all international traffic.' It's a hostile environment to operate in and the Canadian governments sure don't help.
Why are you so interested in the internal business of Air Canada , other than being a troll.
Worry about your own house.
First , ....
mel gibson,
Canada Eh is as interested in the internal business of Air Canada as much as many others because it affects us all;
It becomes everyone's business when a Government medals in a labour process.
It becomes everyone's business when legal precedents are set that will one day affect other carriers that end up in the same boat.
It becomes everyone's business when the contract that used to set the bar - lowers it.
I could go on and on.
Canada Eh has the right to post on this public forum as long as he respects the rules.
Rather than arguing a position contrary to Canada Eh - all you do is make a childish response that pus down another Company with an asssement that is completely biased and inaccurate. Wonderful - I bet you're a real treat at house parties.
Yes we do use foreign pilots on a Hi route. Thanks for pointing that out. It's a short term band aid for a problem that doesn't offer a clear long term solution. Not gonna hijack the thread on that one. All the way up the ranks, nobody really likes it - unfortunately the way forward isn't clear. What route is next? None. Why? It's a unique problem that has all our attention. Standby for further on that one.
Obviously you knew the answer to your question but clearly you have no idea what the extenuating circumstances are - your post, though brief, still reeks of bias and adds nothing to the the discussion.
mel gibson wrote:I know the truth hurts sometimes.
Ok mel, whatever.
I'll bail on the thread with this last comment. The only thing that can save AC vs. another stay of execution, is a paradigm shift on both sides of the table. Ironically, some ideas for change can be taken from places like WS.
The government has tabled back to work legislation forbidding a work stoppage at Air Canada and imposing binding arbitration. Given that the government and Air Canada are reading off the same script in the media which side do you think will come out ahead?
There is nothing we can do about it either because the government has included this clause:
"Proceedings prohibited
30. No order is to be made, no process is to be entered into and no proceeding is to be taken in court
(a) to question the appointment of the arbitrator; or
(b) to review, prohibit or restrain any proceeding or decision of the arbitrator."
We are rapidly turning into an African dictatorship.
I would be far more concerned about this little gem.
(2) In making the selection of a final offer, the arbitrator is to be guided by the need for terms and conditions of employment that are consistent with those in comparable airlines and that will provide the necessary degree of flexibility to ensure the short- and long-term economic viability and competitiveness of Air Canada and the sustainability of its pension plan.
I don't see anything there about the employee, only the employer's needs. Final offer selection and a mandate like that is pretty much the shit creek and lost paddle.
Rockie wrote:The government has tabled back to work legislation forbidding a work stoppage at Air Canada and imposing binding arbitration. Given that the government and Air Canada are reading off the same script in the media which side do you think will come out ahead?
There is nothing we can do about it either because the government has included this clause:
"Proceedings prohibited
30. No order is to be made, no process is to be entered into and no proceeding is to be taken in court
(a) to question the appointment of the arbitrator; or
(b) to review, prohibit or restrain any proceeding or decision of the arbitrator."
We are rapidly turning into an African dictatorship.
Agreed,
Here are some other scary parts of the 'Law':
11. The Minister must appoint as arbitrator for final offer selection a person that the Minister considers appropriate.
Guiding principle
(2) In making the selection of a final offer, the arbitrator is to take into account the tentative agreement reached by the employer and the union on February 10, 2012 and the report of the conciliation commissioner dated February 22, 2012 that was released to the parties, and is to be guided by the need for terms and conditions of employment that are consistent with those in other airlines and that will provide the necessary degree of flexibility to ensure
(a) the short- and long-term economic viabil-ity and competitiveness of the employer; and
(b) the sustainability of the employer’s pension plan, taking into account any short-term funding pressures on the employer.
We've already seen what the company feels it need to be competitive. What other airlines do you think will be referenced?
This is a sad day for Air Canada Pilots, Pilots, and Canadians. I am in disbelief that our own Government could have such disregard for the rights of Canadians.
Now that Lisa Raitt and the Federal Conservative Government has dealt CR two aces from the bottom of the deck, who believes that AC will want to resume bargaining?
rudder wrote:Now that Lisa Raitt and the Federal Conservative Government has dealt CR two aces from the bottom of the deck, who believes that AC will want to resume bargaining?
This is Final Offer Arbitration. The object here, I believe, is to keep everyone honest and to remember not to get greedy. Pie-in-the-sky demands on the unions part or ridiculous low ball offers from the company can hand the ball to other team...for keeps. No cherry picking allowed on the Arbitrators part....just one side OR the other.
SilentMajority wrote:
This is Final Offer Arbitration. The object here, I believe, is to keep everyone honest and to remember not to get greedy. Pie-in-the-sky demands on the unions part or ridiculous low ball offers from the company can hand the ball to other team...for keeps. No cherry picking allowed on the Arbitrators part....just one side OR the other.
Sorry, this little gem in the terms of reference for the Arbitrator tilts the table in favour of the company:
(2) In making the selection of a final offer, the arbitrator is to be guided by the need for terms and conditions of employment that are consistent with those in comparable airlines and that will provide the necessary degree of flexibility to ensure the short- and long-term economic viability and competitiveness of Air Canada and the sustainability of its pension plan.
Each parties proposals are required to meet ALL of these tests. Even if ACPA proposed TA1 they might actually still not get it unless AC were to suggest that TA1 does in fact meet all of the tests.
Folks, sorry but I have not read the entire thread.
In my opinion, this is a very sad day for unions, for pilots particularly, for airline unions, and for democracy in general.
Dramatic? I don't think so!
I don't post here very often. I've been a commercial pilot for 40 years, I've seen a few things in aircraft, and about the business. There has been nothing like this in the past.
Air Canada has maneuvered the pilots into position politically to impose a contract. The Government has eagerly jumped on a ploy by Air Canada to remove employee rights. This is a conjurers trick, slight of hand, dishonest and I believe very dangerous to the rights of Canadians.
Denying the real, understood and legal process can only mean more concessions above and beyond the vast amounts of concessions Air Canada pilots have already delivered since our last real contract over a decade ago. We have been giving something on every meeting with the company during that period.
Yes! I am upset about this situation for Air Canada pilots and employees. The whole concept is much larger than that. The rights of all union members, and maybe all employees of any company unionized or not are being attacked. That surely can not be more obvious. I can not understand why there is not more of a hue and cry on the basic concept that the rights of Canadians as a whole are being degraded. If the press can not pick up on this issue, then we do not need a press because this is a fundamental attack on liberty and rights in Canada.
If you a junior pilot with AC, you are basically screwed. Possibly I may be too from a pension point of view with AC, and I will have no problem leaving asap if I have some information that my pension might be under attack. I suspect that it will be.
If you a pilot with some other company in Canada, think about the consequences of having a contract imposed upon you might be.
If you a citizen employed in Canada, unionized or not think about what it might mean for you.
Please, I beg that every reader thinks about the bigger picture, rather than continuing to hate the company everyone loves to hate. Think, please. This is not just about Air Canada employees.
The AC pilots did not offer a strike notice. Air Canada locked us out. That was entirely a political move, and the crap that led to that was really totally crap. AC offered our contract that we had turned down by 97% but time limited offer of a day or less. We weren't even allowed to vote on it. AC press releases said that they were interested in maintaining service. AC was not interested in labour disruption. An hour and a half, yes that is about correct, locked the pilots out for not accepting an offer on short notice that we'd resounding declined. Not interested in labour disruption? But it's ok to shutdown the airline with a lockout. WTF? Can anyone see the crap here?
The Minister of Labour had previously declined allowing the pilots to extend the bargaining window, subsequently reviewed that declaration and then extended the window to 6 months after our 97x97 vote turning down the AC last offer. The Minister appears to be in bed with Air Canada in an attempt to remove the rights of the employees to bargain in any manner at all. If the Minister is willing to do this with Air Canada employees, specifically pilots that have continuously stated that we only want to bargain an agreement in good faith, can this be far behind for any other employees of the land.
I believe that the real issue is the trampling of the basic rights of Canadians as a whole. Air Canada pilots just happen to be early on the list.
"
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
"
Will there be someone to speak out for you?
rudder wrote:Now that Lisa Raitt and the Federal Conservative Government has dealt CR two aces from the bottom of the deck, who believes that AC will want to resume bargaining?
Air Canada Pilots still hold the trump card.
Phone Buzz, you may need his help to play it.
You have far more support than you may realize.
Will you become the point of the spear, or the
butt of the shaft?
rudder wrote:Now that Lisa Raitt and the Federal Conservative Government has dealt CR two aces from the bottom of the deck, who believes that AC will want to resume bargaining?
Air Canada Pilots still hold the trump card.?
The pilots have always have always held the trump card but are too afraid of the boogeyman to use it. Last time I checked neither The Rat or the Colon can fly an airplane.
Hopefully the new MEC chairman still has the fortitude he displayed back in the late 90's.
MackTheKnife wrote:
The pilots have always have always held the trump card but are too afraid of the boogeyman to use it. Last time I checked neither The Rat or the Colon can fly an airplane.
Hopefully the new MEC chairman still has the fortitude he displayed back in the late 90's.
Good Luck
You guys still don't get it. Take a look around, don't you see the opposing forces surrounding you? Who are your allies? Do you have any? What is your plan? Do you know what happens next? Read the legislation, it is extremely onerous. You are about to give to CR through lack of situational awareness what he could not get in the CCAA process.
Sure JMB was slick on TV more than a decade ago, but history has never looked back and judged that strike as a success. Whatever the strategy was then will not be of any use now. Withdrawal of services and work-to-rule have already been taken off the table by the Feds.
I look forward to the sound bites and interviews (in both official languages ) but if the message is just bluster and bombast then it is not going to change the outcome. Stop treating this as a PR war (which you will never win - just ask the Electro Motive workers). The public will never view the pilots as victims. All that they want is cheap fares and reliable service. And you have already lost the political battle on Parliament Hill. Instead, you would be better served to work on a corporate solution that is better than the one that is being presented by CR.
The message is already out there: economic viability and competitiveness of Air Canada and the sustainability of its pension plan. Even the market and perhaps the Feds would be interested in hearing something from the pilots about that. You need to outgun the gunslinger himself.
Unfortunately, if you have not already begun that initiative time is running out. Planning rallies as a show of force and solidarity is a colossal waste of time.
) but if the message is just bluster and bombast then it is not going to change the outcome. Stop treating this as a PR war (which you will never win - just ask the Electro Motive workers). The public will never view the pilots as victims. All that they want is cheap fares and reliable service. And you have already lost the political battle on Parliament Hill. Instead, you would be better served to work on a corporate solution that is better than the one that is being presented by CR.
